Rangahs

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Snurgt
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Rangahs

Postby Snurgt » Wed Aug 07, 2002 1:04 pm

Just curious about the ranger situtation, since I started leveling one :P

Seems as though they arent as valued as hitters as rogues are. Was wondering if this was just a PR problem or if theres something i'm not seeing.

Ranger melee = rogue melee (except for circle). And rangers have a lower thac0 so can wear more +dam eq.

Ranger archery >>>> rogue melee.

I realize archery is limited in zones due to missile shield, but then just use melee, which is basically as good as rogue melee minus circle.

I realize rogues may have more utility, but when you're talking about EXP, I dont see why rangers arent equal or superior to rogues in securing EXP groups. As I see it, ranger melee = rogue melee (basically) and archery is way better than rogue melee.

Enlighten me!

Hoppil
Azralek Silvermist
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Postby Azralek Silvermist » Wed Aug 07, 2002 3:37 pm

Not touching the damage argument again.

Rangers have no problems getting exp groups
in my experience the problem becomes getting zone groups when you get him up in levels.

Rogues > Rangers in zones no questions about it.

Azralek/Azmaell
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Postby Yayaril » Wed Aug 07, 2002 5:25 pm

The other day I was in an experience group that had four rangers in it.

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Postby Ragorn » Wed Aug 07, 2002 5:56 pm

A lot of it is a PR issue. People have it in their heads that Rangers can't tank, can't bash, etc. We can do these things well enough for most midlevel exp groups, people are just afraid to trust us Image

I did a vault trip as primary basher once.

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- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
Snurgt
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Postby Snurgt » Wed Aug 07, 2002 6:04 pm

Hrmm so its more of a zoning and PR problem.

Agree that rogues are more useful in zones, disarm trap/sneak/hide/pick/poison, etc.

But you only really need one rogue for that.

Don't see why rangers wouldnt be a good choice to fill up a few more group slots, once ya get a rogue in there.

Hop
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Postby Rellanor » Wed Aug 07, 2002 6:49 pm

the thing is Rogues are useful becouse they can do all the things you mentioned if you get 3 of them circling hitting like 5-6 hits a round and using poisons that adds up with para poison 2 of them can make vault alot easier
Azralek Silvermist
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Postby Azralek Silvermist » Wed Aug 07, 2002 8:23 pm

To answer the zoning question
most zones you take like 2 melee people discounting warriors. There is not really a shortage of rogues at that level while there is a over abundance of rangers so rangers generally end up getting left out.

At least statistically while there might be 3 high lvl rangers and 3 high lvl rogues zoning at a time

its going to look something like 20% of the rogues on are without a group
while 80% of the rangers on are without a group.

Those numbers are unlikely to shift because melee damage is currently not the main form of damage for most zones , making it more efficient to take more tanks and more casters.

Azmaell/Azralek
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Postby Nokie » Wed Aug 07, 2002 8:29 pm

Upgrade melee dmg!!!!

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Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers
Treladian
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Postby Treladian » Thu Aug 08, 2002 12:00 am

First off, your damage comparisons are pretty off. Circle adds a huge amount of damage and not using it would be like ditching an offhand weapon for a shield, it just doesn't make sense unless you have some special need. Circle is a major factor in damage for rogues. Not having top notch skill in it during mid levels might cause ranged to do more damage during those levels (no idea on how they compare during exp since I was 50 by the time ranged went in) but any difference closes up by higher levels.

As far as utility during zones, the way I see it is this: While a ranger can do a variety of things poorly in a pinch, rogues can do many things well through the use of skills and poisons. Most of a ranger's non-damage skills (tanking skills, rescues, bash) are only useful when things go bad but a rogue can use their skills to keep things from reaching that point in the first place.

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You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.
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Postby Gormal » Thu Aug 08, 2002 4:53 pm

You group-say 'Ragorn is primary basher 3nj0y!'

Group collectivly moans.

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Ragorn
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Aug 08, 2002 6:13 pm

Best vault trip ever Image

You send the Captain of the Upper Echelon sprawling with a powerful bash!

Vyrol group-says 'ok now I've seen everything'

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- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
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Postby Zen » Fri Aug 09, 2002 2:11 am

Having played both high level rangers and rogues... (Zenriel Soj2 and Zenriel Soj3 respectively...)

Play what you want to play, both are very viable options. My suspicion however, is that rangers are an easier class to start with and rogues tend to do better as alts. Why? Rangers have more survivability until you start making a habit of eating clouds.

How about we just give rangers sneak and hide and call it good? Damned rangers. :P

-Zenriel



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Postby kiryan » Fri Aug 09, 2002 4:25 am

regarding the 20% vs 80% ungrouped, do you think this has anything to do with the larger pbase of rangers (at least seems to me there are a lot more rangers)?

One more tidbit, occasionally on the evil side 50% of the clerics, enchanters, and shaman are ungrouped.

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where ara you my rittle raabuuri
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Postby muma » Fri Aug 09, 2002 5:40 am

EVerytime i zone there is always a ranger or 3 in there. at the same time, i don't zone often.

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Leah A. W.
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Postby Ensis » Fri Aug 09, 2002 11:48 am

Depends on who the ranger is.

When you think about all the cool utility spells rangers get, they're the ultimate scout.. better than a rogue imho, short of hide.

Rangers get bad PR because a lot of people just play them as extra damage, not as scouts, lurers, etc.. Granted in non-nature zones they are a little disadvantaged..but that is the detriment to playing a ranger.

Pass without trace, sleep, invisibility, detect invisibility, faerie fog, sense life, protection from animals, transport via plants.. think about the possibilities for exploring, not so much who does damage.



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Postby Corth » Fri Aug 09, 2002 12:37 pm

Friendships aside, melee classes are usually a waste of space if you have other options. Spell damage is by far more effective than melee damage in big multi-mob fights. Sometimes you are forced to bring a rogue because you need lockpicking. Rangers can be nifty for luring but luring is typically more of a luxury than a necessity. If friendship wasn't a factor i doubt i would have brought many rangers to zones when i lead. So yah, you rangers that feel useless... your not insane. Image

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.
Corth
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Postby Corth » Fri Aug 09, 2002 12:38 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ensis:
When you think about all the cool utility spells rangers get, they're the ultimate scout.. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I take issue with that!

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Goddamned slippery mage.
Azralek Silvermist
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Postby Azralek Silvermist » Fri Aug 09, 2002 3:30 pm

nods kiryan that was what i was pointing out in my post.

Number of rangers > need for them

Azralek/Azmaell
Treladian
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Postby Treladian » Sat Aug 10, 2002 2:06 am

"your not insane"

I take issue with that!

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You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.
Ragorn
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Postby Ragorn » Sat Aug 10, 2002 3:00 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Treladian:
<B>"your not insane"

I take issue with that!

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do too. It should be "you're."

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- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
Tasan
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Postby Tasan » Sat Aug 10, 2002 3:33 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ensis:
<B>
Pass without trace, sleep, invisibility, detect invisibility, faerie fog, sense life, protection from animals, transport via plants.. think about the possibilities for exploring, not so much who does damage.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you just say sleep is a good tool for exploring? Boggle!

Twyl

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Kallinar
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Postby Kallinar » Sat Aug 10, 2002 5:35 am

Glad to know I wasn't insane Image

Glad Evils like me as a Dire Raider Image

No this is not an invitation for you rangers to retire and come over to the dark side to be cooler. You gotta be truely sucky like me to pull that one off Image

Kallinar was here
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Postby Sylvos » Sat Aug 10, 2002 6:12 am

Yes Twyl, sleep is very useful for exploring where there are lvl40- aggros. We all know that w/o stone there's no chance in hell we can tank a lvl40 mob to kill it, but to tank just long enough to send em into slumberland? Damn handy.

Take a stroll through Trollbark sometime... *whistle* There are reasons I asked for Rangers to receive spellcast enchant.

Sylvos
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Postby Ragorn » Sat Aug 10, 2002 6:12 am

Sleep is an excellent tool for exploring. Lead a tracker away from the pack, minor para it (works more often than sleep, I've found), flee out and sleep it while it's para'd and you've taken a monster out for like an hour Image

I once had every flame under Moonshaes asleep in the same room, when I was trying to get the scale for my Windy.

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- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
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Postby Tasan » Sat Aug 10, 2002 5:12 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sylvos:
<B>Yes Twyl, sleep is very useful for exploring where there are lvl40- aggros. We all know that w/o stone there's no chance in hell we can tank a lvl40 mob to kill it, but to tank just long enough to send em into slumberland? Damn handy.

Take a stroll through Trollbark sometime... *whistle* There are reasons I asked for Rangers to receive spellcast enchant.

Sylvos</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would I care about that, it's a forest, and I can walk around invis to my hearts content. Image

Twyl

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I am jack's complete lack of effort.
Sylvos
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Postby Sylvos » Sat Aug 10, 2002 6:55 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tasan:
<B> Why would I care about that, it's a forest, and I can walk around invis to my hearts content. Image

Twyl

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because the plants have di
Corth
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Postby Corth » Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:56 pm

0wn3d!

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Goddamned slippery mage.
teflor the ranger
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Aug 10, 2002 8:25 pm

Pril group-says 'hey, all the tree-huggers made it out alive'

Image

And his corpse was heavy!

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David
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Postby Adriorn » Mon Aug 12, 2002 12:47 am

I have to agree with Corth on this one totally. I've always known it too. If not for friends, I'd be Warder of 3W.

There are several classes that can lure effectively (think and you'll realize which).

Invokers and Rogues outdamage us.

Are we good solo explorers? Of course, one of the best, probably with the Shaman and Illusionist.

What I don't understand is the downgrade that was done recently to archery. It totally boggled me. Even from before, there were several Rangers who refused to use archery. Why would anyone, specially now, pick a Ranger over a Rogue? RP and friendship I'm guessing. Invokers aren't getting the credit they deserve.

If used correctly, we can do some limited bashing and rescuing work during harder zones, true. But so can Rogues.


I'd like to thank all those people who throughout my time here have asked me to group because of the person I am and a friend, and not my class.

Thank you.

Adriorn Darcloak
Warder of the Realms
~
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Aug 12, 2002 6:37 am

It's a fun class, regardless of how it stacks up point for point against the other classes. Yeah, if you're looking to powerplay, you probably can't justify playing a ranger over a rogue or a dire raider. But really, this is a discussion that's gone on for years and years and YEARS on this board.

I think honestly, there are too many classes on Sojourn. I never thought I would say it, but the various hitter/priest/caster classes are starting to step on each others' toes a lot. I think classes that used to have definite niches are beginning to lose their uniqueness. Hitter classes are practically nostalgia, especially this wipe with druids, necros, and shamans getting kicked into offensive overdrive. Like I said in another thread, even caster classes are turning into one-trick-ponies who have one primary spell and a bunch of shared spells in lower circles. I dunno, there are so many classes that need a niche that will never find one, because other classes are too similar. And one is always "better" than the other.

Duris crammed like 20 classes into their game, but they use code that Sojourn won't touch to differentiate between them... magic resistance on players, vamp, charm, that sort of thing. Relative to other muds I've played, individual power on Sojourn is astoundingly low. It's tough to hash out class features in a game where player power has to be kept tightly reined in.

I dunno, just rambling now it seems. Probably meat for another thread, but I won't start one because I'm lazy Image

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- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
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Postby Drakkoth » Mon Aug 12, 2002 9:29 pm

So only rangers suck now? That's not bad at all.

It wasn't that long ago that rangers, rogues, antis, and paladins were all useless. We had mercs and berserkers too--they were also useless.

Just rangers now? How far we've come.
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Postby Nokie » Mon Aug 12, 2002 10:49 pm

rangers suck?

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Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers

[This message has been edited by Nokie (edited 08-12-2002).]
Kasula
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Postby Kasula » Fri Aug 16, 2002 2:58 pm

yes, rangers suck... if you look at all the top ranger besides me hehe they are guilded or have friends with zone leaders. Most of the others are stuck at the For Sale board hoping that a group is short something, and will ask them to group. Truthfully, on a Saturday or Sunday night when alot of the zoning goes on, take a look the for sale board or who sort ungroup ranger.
I have no idea why windsong was downgraded or why archery was downgrade!

Please upgrade rangers!
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Postby Sylvos » Fri Aug 16, 2002 4:08 pm

Stop panhandling for a ranger upgrade.
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Postby Yayaril » Fri Aug 16, 2002 6:20 pm

If all of a sudden 50 additional rogues entered the mud and leveled their way up to the high end game, I think the number of rogues sitting at 3w waiting for zone groups would rise dramatically. Does this mean that rogues need upgrades? No. It means that there are lots of rogues and not every single one of them is going to get a zoning group. The same thing with rangers- they are a very popular class and someone's going to be left out. This is where I suggest you start leveling up an alt so whenever it comes time to do a zone, you can switch to a different character that would balance the group out if there are too many rangers around.

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-Yayaril
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Postby Corth » Fri Aug 16, 2002 8:35 pm

how come there are never too many shaman and enchanters? sniff.

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Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Jorus » Sat Aug 17, 2002 3:01 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>how come there are never too many shaman and enchanters? sniff.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Workload?

Hiring policies?

Regards,
Jorus
Rellanor
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Postby Rellanor » Sat Aug 17, 2002 3:07 am

Becouse you hitters expect 1 chanter to globe 40 of you it scares the peeps away from being a chanter
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Postby old depok » Mon Aug 19, 2002 1:08 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kasula:
<B>yes, rangers suck... if you look at all the top ranger besides me hehe they are guilded or have friends with zone leaders. Most of the others are stuck at the For Sale board hoping that a group is short something, and will ask them to group. Truthfully, on a Saturday or Sunday night when alot of the zoning goes on, take a look the for sale board or who sort ungroup ranger.
I have no idea why windsong was downgraded or why archery was downgrade!

Please upgrade rangers!</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Take a look at the who list at any point and you will see that the number of high level players not guilded is extremely small. What you will also notice is that most of those are alts or have not completed their descriptions and so don't have their guild title on.

I do think that your point is a good one however. If your a ranger it pays to be in a guild.

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