Recent Downgrades

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Keran
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Recent Downgrades

Postby Keran » Thu Aug 15, 2002 11:03 pm

I logged on to find out that the armor/helm of conquests had been downgraded. Can someone tell me why these items were downed? Surely the items are among some of the best items for those slots (i.e., head and on body) in the game. I see no reason for the downgrade given the difficulty to complete the quests. I for one, have been working on these quests for about 3 months. Down to my last two items for both quests I have been stuck for 5 weeks trying to form a group willing to tackle the zone that contains one of the items required. In addition to getting the items for the quest, you need to turn them in also. I have 89 days on my playtime and have been to clouds twice. The first trip was a spank and the second trip (the time I was to quest the helm) we aborted because it was getting too hairy and people generally didnt want to be there.

Is the item unbalanced relative to other eq in its slot? Consider the prots you loose by wearing it in place of the ancient green (gas/acid). The item _was_ nice given what is required espcially considering the quest within the quest that required yet another trip to clouds.

Anyway, I didn't intend to have this be a flame thread. I was just looking for answers given that I have been working on this for some time now. I surely hope this wasnt a balancing issue with good aligned warriors as I would have a field day listing off the countless advantages the currently have over evil-aligned warriors (I'm not talking about evil races here).

Look for feedback,

Toarn
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Postby rachaz » Thu Aug 15, 2002 11:18 pm

I know Toarn's post was not to touch on evil raced warriors. I also try my best not to complain about downgrades and accept that the immortals know best. However, I am as curious as Toarn about why this downgrade occurred.

As far as I know, six people have war armor of conquest. Compared to the amount of clouds trips evils have taken, this should help show some of the difficulty of completing the quest. The difficulty is not measured by the items the quest takes, but also by the ability to collect them and turn them in.

Not to dwell...

Rachaz
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Postby Ambar » Thu Aug 15, 2002 11:48 pm

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Postby Guest » Fri Aug 16, 2002 2:25 am

Mainly because they were and have been unbalanced for a while. Nothing really came that close to comparing to them.

Paramount rule, difficulty does not always justify the reward.

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Postby Gyrx » Fri Aug 16, 2002 2:28 am

Personally, I thought the armor was fine as it was. I do believe that the helm quest should be upgraded, but leave the stats as they were.

Now, instead of having an evil warrior only piece of eq that is by no means easy to get, one that you need a very good group to get most of the parts, and one that takes a lot of time checking some rares...there is a piece of eq that all you have to do is camp a single rare that is soloable, and then you need to take a very tiny group to go quest.

Personally, I don't like that. It's almost like boltie vs skull eyepatch. Let's see, camp one rare that in a very safe location that you can solo..or you can get a good high level group and bust into one of the hardest zones in the game while praying for other things to happen. Which piece of eq should be better?

But life will go on, it is only a game. But it is a game that I enjoy to play a lot, one which I greatly appreciate the hard work that hundreds of people have done.

Could we please get some immortal feedback?

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Postby Gyrx » Fri Aug 16, 2002 2:32 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kelemvor:
<B>Mainly because they were and have been unbalanced for a while. Nothing really came that close to comparing to them.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd take surtur over helm anyday.

Also, why not put in more eq in the game that closes the gap..but is easier to get and requires a group (promoting the grouping > solo aspect that the mud is going for)?

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Postby rachaz » Fri Aug 16, 2002 2:49 am

In my original post, which was far longer than the one I actually sent, I had listed items that were better than the OLD warhelm of conquest.

In fact, an item that was just "discovered" takes hit point helms to a new level. It blows the conquest helm out of the water. 4 crowns excluding tiamat items are better than the OLD conquest helm. It now pales in comparison.

Kelvemor, I have a great deal of respect for you and love what you have done for the mud. So please do not take this as an insult but I do not think the items were "out of balance" at all. In fact, I do not know how an item only 6 people possess can be measured in the balance scale. If the item was so common it was flooding the game, I could understand. But as is, the armor's affect is immeasurable.

Thank you for your time.

Rachaz
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Postby Corth » Fri Aug 16, 2002 6:19 am

btw toarn, just so you know.. the quest mob is aggro good race.. so your not meant to be questing that item.. even if you CAN wear it. Though if your elusive enough you'll be able to get away with it. Image

But anyway.. if the conquest stuff was a reward that you got for killing mobs in clouds id say it might be a little overpowered given the work involved to get it. But not only do you have to find a group to goto clouds, you need to also collect all the quest items first to turn it in. Furthermore, as someone mentioned, the war helm is not the best item in the game for that slot. The armor might very well be.. but considering the quest items you need in order to get it, i don't think it was problematic.

Corth

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Postby Guest » Fri Aug 16, 2002 6:41 am

I'm not really going to say anything beyond this.

One item was changed by 5 hitpoints, the other changed by 10 hitpoints. They are more balanced this way. They were downgraded because not one, but many (5+) gods, felt that they should be slightly less then they were. They are still some of the best (the best?) eq in the game for those locations, with almost no eq comparing.

I would hope that players could trust us to make changes without just arbitarily thowing them out there.

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Postby Wargo » Fri Aug 16, 2002 6:55 am

It's like Kelemvor completely did not see or "read" what others posted Image
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Postby Caedym » Fri Aug 16, 2002 8:11 am

Hrmmm..

Interesting. A thread started and conducted by players in a respectable manner to both themselves and the staff, and the official response is to clam up?

Veto!

I’m more concerned with the trend that when non-zone elite players (or those in their fold) learn quest(s) for equipment that could be considered substantial, the staff has consistently displayed a tendency to then downgrade the item(s).

I’m not exactly sure what this means or could imply, but this tendency disturbs me nonetheless.

-Caedym Shadowhock -Some dude working for Oghma


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Postby kiryan » Fri Aug 16, 2002 10:32 am

armor lost a good chunk of ac too didnt it? That i think was fairly significant in addition to losing the hps.

while i agree the crown and armor in particular were on the strong side, i dont understand why after 10 months there was finally a overwhelming consensus that the items were too good. Why did it take so long to downgrade it? no matter i suppose at least it wasnt downgraded roots belt style.

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[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 08-16-2002).]
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Postby rachaz » Fri Aug 16, 2002 1:59 pm

Interesting points from everyone. However, when the level of the eq that is being discussed is of this calliber, 5 hp on the helm and 10 hp on the armor is more than substantial.

What seperates a darven scale from a MS ringmail - 10 hitpoints. Little advances in eq are the only thing that serperates good eq from great eq.

Also, in my opinion, this downgrade is more harsh than roots belt. The wararmor was already heavily restricted in useage. The actual stat not just restrictions were changed with this item.

A good friend of mine told me that when one item can be seen as the clear and only choice of high level armor, that item should be changed. I think that war armor was the best of the best but was it excluding players from wearing other armors? Cherzra who is one of the top evil warriors wore infernos armor. I also had switched to a different armor before I knew of the downgrade.

The conquest armor left a great deal of us missing our dex notches and some prots. That did not bother us trolls. Now, with the changes, I can not see myself wearing the armor in place of that needed stat and my missing prot. The questing of this item will soon fall out of favor I am sure and will go undone. Until, a year from now, someone will make warhelm of conquest a quest item and make people get them again.

As for the helm, that was on route to be replaced anyhow. There are 4 other helms that I spoke of before that I would much rather wear.

I use myself as an example in these posts about this armor not because I am upset that the item was changed FOR ME but because I have the other options. I can interchange the items spoken about. The downgrades do not hurt much more than my sense of accomplishment of having completed the quest.

My final point goes back to my original post involving the affects of balance being unmeasurable with only 6 people having the item. If a staff of inferno charges was added into the game, even if one person had it, I would be able to see the imbalance (quoting someone else). But I do not think the armor was a staff of inferno.

Again, respectfully,

Rachaz
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Postby Gyrx » Fri Aug 16, 2002 8:53 pm

I mean this with all due respect, but Kelemvor, now instead of having a very hard to get item as arguably best in it's slot it is replaced by an item you can solo. How is that balanced?

Why not make quest items to fill in the gap, scaling them up to equal conquest eq?

[This message has been edited by Gyrx (edited 08-16-2002).]
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Postby Corth » Fri Aug 16, 2002 9:54 pm

btw, anyone check to see if the 'elaborite' robes where changed at all?

Corth

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Postby Malacar » Sat Aug 17, 2002 2:17 am

I looked earlier, looked the same to me.

The typo was fixed a while back btw.

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Postby Dalar » Sat Aug 17, 2002 6:50 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kelemvor:
<B>
Paramount rule, difficulty does not always justify the reward.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why do warhelm when you can just wait for muspelheim invasion?
Why do scorp earring when you can get black opal stud or ET earring?
Why do conquest armor when you just lose 1 dam and 15 hp and do chlora armor instead (and gain 2 prots)?
Why do clouds when you can get a lava amulet (combat amulet), ogrehides (only losing -2 sv spell on the mage gloves), eyepatch (bolt or black eyepatch are better), purple eyepatch (15 hp -4 sv spell vs the cloud's 18 hp eyepatch) etc.?
Why spend time on oakvale epic quest when you can just do Tiamat in 8 hours and get 2x the loot?

Zone eq. > Rares Bad risk vs reward.

Conquest armor. I don't know the quest but I know it's much harder than waiting for muspelheim invasion and chlora.
Scorp earring - 2+ hour of multiple zones for 3 elite players, one newbie quest that involves bulldozing IC unless you're a rogue, 5 rares for a ac 3 3/1 earring. Can do ET in 3 hours with a 12-15 man group easily and get a water earring (3 hitroll pfa) and much more. AC 2 1 dam -pfa = 5 rares? OUCH.
Oakvale epic - farming for at most 9 boots, finding 2 rares, at least 5 hours of zoning, killing more rares on multiple planes, an hour or more of questing and finding a rare more rare than Shijin _VS_ getting slaughtered multiple times at Tiamat.
Gorgimera cloak - Gorgimera is so rare. The reward is pretty lame and would only be used in _very_ limited situations.

I could go on but I won't. Basically the 'elite' quests that take forever to do aren't as strong as what can be done by a 15 man group in a few hours.

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Postby Corth » Sat Aug 17, 2002 7:56 am

Kelemvor,

Dont fool yourself. if you want the mud to be well balanced then the reward someone gets should reflect the objective difficulty of obtaining it.

When SF eq was nerfed on toril, guess what, it wasn't done anymore. Nobody did sf until it became part of res quest. Even then, it wasn't done regularly until the eq was upgraded.

Do you really think someone will do a difficult quest or zone for an item that is inferior to something they can obtain easily?

Corth

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Postby cherzra » Sat Aug 17, 2002 10:52 am

I really have to post here.

Listen to yourselves. You're all saying these hard-to-get quest items are inferior to easy to obtain regular items.

1) the quests are easy
2) even in their current state the helm is 2nd only to surtur, and the armor second to none.

How come every high level evil was, and still will be, wearing them?

Saying the conquest helm was worse than the invasion warlord crown is totally ridiculous because one had +20hp and the other had a prot that every high level player already has. +20hp is top of the line +hp eq, and then it gets 2 dam slapped onto it. Honestly, you don't think that's a little too much? Show me another item that is +2dam +20hp. Even at its current state it is second only to surtur, and even > surtur for fights against non-casting mobs. As for the armor, same deal. +3dam +25hp is so far beyond +1 +2 or 2dam 9dex PFA PFG that it is silly. Even at its current state, it is still awesome. Nowhere else can you get 3 damage, let alone 15hp slapped on to it.

The reason I never wore the armor is that I never got to finish my quest, I had all the items sitting in my bag for months without managing to visit clouds, because of the timezone I'm in. And guess what? I gathered those items in less than a month, and if I lived in a more primetime place I would have had that armor without any problems within a month. Even now, I'd STILL wear it over my infernos armor. 20ac 3dam 15hp is pretty darn kickass, so let's keep it real ok? And there is plenty of other stuff in clouds that still warrants going there. Actually most everything still in there is > all other.

Go on, flame me for disagreeing with everyone, I don't care.
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Postby Sylvos » Sat Aug 17, 2002 1:54 pm

I'm just going to point out that using the fact that there are only 6 in the game now isn't a valid argument for balance.

I don't know the quests, but take a different argument approach to object to this. Without a pwipe, you can't ever assume there will be a small number of any item unless it gets pulled, like Torin's did.

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Postby Dalar » Sat Aug 17, 2002 4:50 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sylvos:
<B>I'm just going to point out that using the fact that there are only 6 in the game now isn't a valid argument for balance.

I don't know the quests, but take a different argument approach to object to this. Without a pwipe, you can't ever assume there will be a small number of any item unless it gets pulled, like Torin's did.

Sylvos</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From what I've heard, Torin's was way too easy to get and was extremely powerful. Conquest armor is a long quest that has a turnin in one of the hardest zones in the game. It is a valid argument because Clouds has been in for more than 8 months and there are only 6 conquest armors in game.

The "there's only 6 argument" has been used b4 with Diamond tiara i believe. Diamond tiara is one of the best crowns in game and can be done by 3-5 people, yet it was never downgraded or pulled and a god told us to never sell them and don't mass farm them and b/c they were so few in the game to even care. How about serpent armor? I don't know how hard serpent armor ( i heard it took 6 months to originally do it) is, but how would you feel Sylvos if the stat other than the hitroll was removed? Wouldn't you feel all your hard work just went down the drain? If you said yes, probably b/c you had fun doing the quest, but not all people share that view.

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Postby Dalar » Sat Aug 17, 2002 5:05 pm

<B>

How come every high level evil was, and still will be, wearing them?
</B>
Because they don't have musp invasion crown and they don't need the prots or dex from chlora armor?

<B>
Saying the conquest helm was worse than the invasion warlord crown is totally ridiculous because one had +20hp and the other had a prot that every high level player already has.
</B>
Musp invasion warlord crown is 12 hp 2 dam pfc i think, not sure. if you were talking about surtur, -8 sv spell > 15 hp.

<B>
The reason I never wore the armor is that I never got to finish my quest, I had all the items sitting in my bag for months without managing to visit clouds, because of the timezone I'm in. And guess what? I gathered those items in less than a month, and if I lived in a more primetime place I would have had that armor without any problems within a month. Even now, I'd STILL wear it over my infernos armor. 20ac 3dam 15hp is pretty darn kickass, so let's keep it real ok? Actually most everything still in there is > all other.
</B>
Well just because you got it in less than a month doesn't mean everyone else can right? Toarn still doesn't have his attic ring and i'm sure it's been over a month. When was the last time either side did clouds? I'm guessing it was the last time someone needed a turn in.

Flames are bad m'kay.

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Postby Vandic » Sat Aug 17, 2002 5:23 pm

Musp invasion warlord crown is 12 hp 2 dam pfc i think, not sure. if you were talking about surtur, -8 sv spell > 15 hp.

The muspel invasion analog of iron crown doesn't have any hps, only the surtur analog (basinet) does (and without the !summon). Both are pfc. Just for clarification.
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Postby Gyrx » Sat Aug 17, 2002 6:05 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B>1) the quests are easy
2) even in their current state the helm is 2nd only to surtur, and the armor second to none.

How come every high level evil was, and still will be, wearing them?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I put armor on storage, and am now wearing chlora. I know of 2 other people that did this as well. That's half the armors out there that were put on storage.
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Postby Gyrx » Sat Aug 17, 2002 6:32 pm

Also, I wouldn't have been nearly of bothered if all it would have lost was 1 damroll, but that's just me.

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Postby Sylvos » Sat Aug 17, 2002 10:36 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalar:
<B> From what I've heard, Torin's was way too easy to get and was extremely powerful. Conquest armor is a long quest that has a turnin in one of the hardest zones in the game. It is a valid argument because Clouds has been in for more than 8 months and there are only 6 conquest armors in game.

The "there's only 6 argument" has been used b4 with Diamond tiara i believe. Diamond tiara is one of the best crowns in game and can be done by 3-5 people, yet it was never downgraded or pulled and a god told us to never sell them and don't mass farm them and b/c they were so few in the game to even care. How about serpent armor? I don't know how hard serpent armor ( i heard it took 6 months to originally do it) is, but how would you feel Sylvos if the stat other than the hitroll was removed? Wouldn't you feel all your hard work just went down the drain? If you said yes, probably b/c you had fun doing the quest, but not all people share that view.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I used Torin's as an example of where somebody could use the "only X in game" argument about a possible downgrade. My ignorance regarding the equipment in question, and the steps required to obtain it prevent me from saying yea or nay on if it shoulda been downgraded.

Sylvos
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Postby Zoldren » Sat Aug 17, 2002 10:52 pm

I dont have one and dont realy care but just out of curiosity...

with all the people out there with 1k hp and 40+ damage or 30/30 or 30/40 or 40hitroll... ...

i think it all depends on your play style but.... just answer me this...

would you rather loose the
1) prots
2) attribs (ie str con dex..)
3) hit
4) dam
5) hp

i think most would rather NOT lose #5 everything else is easily made up from what i have seen...

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Postby Treladian » Sat Aug 17, 2002 11:49 pm

"would you rather loose the
1) prots
2) attribs (ie str con dex..)
3) hit
4) dam
5) hp"

Dam by far. Everything else but hit is hard to find on good hitter equipment and while dam is more highly valued by hitters, you don't have a minimum value for dam that you tend to skirt like you do for hit.

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Postby Gyrx » Sun Aug 18, 2002 2:56 am

agree trel Image
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Postby Frobakhal » Sun Aug 18, 2002 3:19 am

I'm confused, why don't whoever is in charge of the eq in the game make a final agreement with whoever else so eq never needs to be rechecked and downgraded. If you're worried about the playerbase getting to powerful then isn't there other means of maintaning the balance or just make the eq less dramatic but still good enough that people will want to quest it yet not have to listen to the 'why did they downgrade this or that'...then everyone is happy.
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Postby Dugmaren » Sun Aug 18, 2002 4:25 am

Contrary to popular belief area gods do not have some form of for-sight that allows us to know perfectly how an item will fit into the game balance wise. In light of this, as many of you have seen, objects are tweaked when they are found to not fit in how we orginally thought they would.

Our goal is to diversify equipment, we would like it so that as a high level warrior, you have several options of viable gear. If you have to chose between chlora, conquest, infernos, and jot ringmail, based on the zone you're doing or your other equipment, then we have achieved this goal. If everyone is wants only conquest armor, then it is too powerful and needs to be re-balanced.

Dugmaren

ps - if the Muspelheim invasion crown turns out to be over-balanced, then it will be downgraded, feel free to complain now.
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Postby Wargo » Sun Aug 18, 2002 4:31 am

There are currently more elaborate dragonscales robes in game than conquest armor. The robes is way more powerful than the next item in line. There is absolutely no reason to "choose" to wear the other items. Therefore, by gods own reasoning, I request a downgrade to the robes so that more of our efforts can go down the drain. Image

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Postby Gyrx » Sun Aug 18, 2002 4:32 am

Thank you for the response Dug.

But I'd like to point out that now, for me personally, conquest armor is not an option for me. Why not make it 2 damroll instead of 3 as the downgrade. That way you could choose: A) I can have pfg pfa +9dex (those that need some dex like me who's 1 notch short) or i can gave 25 hps. Then for warriors who want the prots it'd be an option.

Right now conquest isn't even an option in a zone situation for me because I need the ac to hit -100 among other things. And yes I could change around my eq to gain -100, but in the end i'd lose more then I'd gain.

[This message has been edited by Gyrx (edited 08-18-2002).]
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Postby kiryan » Sun Aug 18, 2002 5:33 am

Even with the downgrade the armor has a niche without being the dominant evil warrior armor for all purposes. It has the most damroll. Now folks may want to wear prots or dex or hitroll over one extra dam, but it is still the #1 item in chest for pure damroll..

The AC downgrade was significant imo. Ringmail is 35 hps 18 ac. As a tank, I wouldn
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Postby rachaz » Sun Aug 18, 2002 6:32 am

Going along with what kiryan said, war armor was not the dominant choice because for many it is/was not a choice at all. The opportunity to receive that armor is not at all on the level with the others. Thus, if you are afforded that opportunity, you are in a whole new standard of equipment.

This arguement is like saying Isha is overpowered because it is the obvious choice.

There has to be a best. All things can not be equal or we might as well just have one standard kit and give it different colors.

Rachaz
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Postby Todrael » Sun Aug 18, 2002 5:54 pm

Of the equipment I'm wearing at this moment, I count 12 that I would never switch out for any other item under any circumstances. Dominant choices are not the sole factor in determining equipment balance, but one of many to consider, certainly.

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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Sun Aug 18, 2002 5:58 pm

I think there's a difference between being the 'best' item for a slot, and being too overpowering (i.e. unbalanced)... you can be the first without being the second, but being the second means a downgrade is inevitable at some point in time.
Shargaas
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Postby Shargaas » Sun Aug 18, 2002 8:04 pm

Keep your opinions coming. I personally did not have any problems with the conquest items in their original forms or their new stats. The recent trend _has_ been downgrade..downgrade..downgrade.. but it is important that we hear the players feedback about not just downgrades but also what needs to be upgraded (like SF was). Remember that there is always items out there which players have not found yet but might flood the mud every boot once they do find these items. Not to mention the six or so new zones which just went in.

Dragon robes were already nerfed once and Cyric took a hard stance last time I talked with him about them. On body equipment is going to be one of the more powerful slots as we fill in the gaps (ie "a certain item from smoke plane")
Frobakhal
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Postby Frobakhal » Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:46 pm

I'm confused, why don't whoever is in charge of the eq in the game make a final agreement with whoever else so eq never needs to be rechecked and downgraded. If you're worried about the playerbase getting to powerful then isn't there other means of maintaning the balance or just make the eq less dramatic but still good enough that people will want to quest it yet not have to listen to the 'why did they downgrade this or that'...then everyone is happy.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Aug 19, 2002 1:02 am

Shargaas -

Scorpion earring - 3/1 vs a duergar earring that's 1/2 and the duergar earring is _so_ much easier to get. I believe 1 dam = 2 hit in the eq balance right? Also comparing this to ET earring and black opal which are 3 hitroll.
render cloak and ayuruk tears are pretty hard to get (involves alot of rares) and using the 1 dam = 2 hitroll makes the risk vs reward pretty weak vs seashell necklace.

Kazgoroth epic quest - one item is a rare on a rare... the quest is perfectly fine now (before the end fight was unbalanced and i figured the item was made rare to prevent people from doing the quest. it use to load every boot)

crystal eyepiece is a 18 hp eyepatch. 3 hp < -4 sv spell or -3 sv breath sense life.




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You group-say 'Go-chan looks like a man'
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Gura
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Postby Gura » Mon Aug 19, 2002 1:27 am

ok so, since the conquest helm was too powerful u downgraded it. Can we expect surtur crown to be downgraded also? If you compare the 2 items, the surtur is by far better than the conquest helm. why not keep it fair right?

hell just make everything !stat. that'll be fair wont it?

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-Gura Crush Head
Corth
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Postby Corth » Mon Aug 19, 2002 7:47 am

Gura.. lets not give them any ideas shall we.. Image

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.
kiryan
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Postby kiryan » Mon Aug 19, 2002 11:04 am

The war armor change brought it into the vicinity of balance, but I think most of us reject the notion that it #1 needed to be done in order to diversify what people wore, #2 needed to be downgraded because it was the best piece for the slot. The same could be applied to numerous other top end eq and sets a precedence that after a piece of eq becomes too common it will be downgraded.

The risk vs reward is debateable, and one hopes that the risk vs reward is being evaluated not only from a Area god's point of view but also or more importantly from players perspective. As for me, I'll be wearing ringmail or conquest armor if I ever finish it (going on 10 months for me).

while i think the downgrade was in order on the armor and perhaps on the crown, i would like to register some dissent with the notion that everyone wanting and or wearing the same gear is bad.

I would say that is not inherently bad unless the piece in question is too powerful for the risk vs reward or that its the forger's desire to diversify eq people wear for RP reasons.

if the latter is your goal, your not going to get much diversity unless you start handing out lots of restrings, simply restringing high level gear for new zones, or imping eq with the same major pluses and differing negatives.

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where ara you my rittle raabuuri
Ragorn
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Aug 19, 2002 12:49 pm

It's always been my opinion that there should not be a "best" item for any given slot. There should always be an option for a player who wants to prioritize his equipment, and it should be possible to reach the same hit/dam/prot/hp status using multiple equipment setups.

Note that risk vs. reward is not a linear function, and it never will be. In a world with 10,000 different objects, you can never reach a linear risk vs. reward trend. Accept that sometimes, an item which you percieve to be "just as good" will be easier to get. Go get it, and smile that you had such an easy time.

That being said, the new stats on this armor are still better than the fruit of my wildest dreams. It wasn't such ancient history when elven field plate was the new, hot armor for all 50s to be wearing. That much damage plus hit points is the wet dream of every warrior since amethyst rings came into style.

Use the armor or don't. It's still wicked good. If the time involved in getting it isn't worth it to you, then don't. Sojourn is a game where the 10hp is often the difference between uberelite quest gear and podville trash. Someone will value the armor and use it, even if others prioritize their sets differently.

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- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
Corth
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Postby Corth » Mon Aug 19, 2002 4:52 pm

Ragorn:

I completely agree with you that it would be impossible to create some sort of objective risk v. reward schedule and rate eq accordingly. Both the risk and the reward are determined by an individual's perception of what that risk and reward is. My disagreement though is with statements like the one by Kelemvor that risk v. reward should not be the primary guide to what type of stats an item has when it is put in the game. Although its not possible to get it totally right, it is by far the best guide available. If the reward does not justify the risk, as was the case in SF for a long time, people will not even bother doing the zone. The closer that risk corresponds to reward, the more balanced the game is.

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.
Jurdex
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Postby Jurdex » Mon Aug 19, 2002 9:06 pm

I'll start with saying I don't really have an opinion either way on this particular downgrade.

With that said, I do have some thoughts with downgrades in general. If the Gods feel that a certain items is unbalanced, I have no problem with the items being tweaked, brought into balance or downgraded (however you want to refer to it).

Now, what I do wonder is that why are some items brought into balance, but then they don't seem worth the effort when they are.

Basically what I am getting at is that if items can be downgraded and brought into balance, why are the actual means to get that item not as well? There are many quests Dalar has referred to that just aren't very rewarding for the effort put in. It could be as simple as making a rare load mob pop more frequently or changing that the rare on a rare load always drops when the mob loads.

I don't have a problem really when items are brought into balance, what I am asking though is that many of the quests/means to get items be as well.

Thanks.

Dornax
Jurdex

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The Raven of Wisdom

Est Sularus Oth Mithas
"My Honor is My Life"
Guest

Postby Guest » Mon Aug 19, 2002 10:37 pm

I didn't say Risk vs. reward shouldn't be the primary determining factor.

What I said was Difficulty doesn't always justify reward.

If I make a room with 100 jarls in it, should it be able to have a 150 hp ring? no... Its difficulty is much harder then everything in the game, but that does not justify the reward.

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Kelemvor - God of the Dead, and Cemeteries
Areas Wank
Corth
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Postby Corth » Mon Aug 19, 2002 10:42 pm

no it would not justify a ring of 150 hps. But it certainly would justify a ring that is better than any other in the game. And if the trend keeps up with new zones always one-upping the old ones, we should start seeing these 100 jarl rooms soon Image

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.
Jurdex
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Postby Jurdex » Mon Aug 19, 2002 10:55 pm

Why doesn't difficulty determine reward?

Example: Elven Masque is the best in the game, but its only marginally better than some others, and it requires shijin which is an insane rare load.. the Masque is way underpowered imo. (and no not just because I have one)

Possible Solution: upgrade the Masque so people actually want to quest it or make the quest easier by having Shijin load more

Dornax
Jurdex

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The Raven of Wisdom

Est Sularus Oth Mithas
"My Honor is My Life"
Shargaas
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Postby Shargaas » Tue Aug 20, 2002 1:46 am

Ragorn: a little more than 10,000 actually. This is part of the reason why it is so hard to balance new equipment sometimes. There is roughly 20+ mid to high level items for each slot on both casters and melee. And then there are the items which are used by both and the hundred or so weapons.

Scorpion earring fills a particular niche (as -most- other high level earrings are +dam without any hitroll or vice versa)
Render cloak and ayuruk tears are good niche items as well, just very restricted.

Shells have already lost !summon this wipe and are still tough to beat, but I think the changes to the main rare in this quest slowed down the influx of those quite a bit.

Crystal eyepiece looks ok. It makes a nice item for people to bid on besides all the other good stuff from that zone.

I am not sure what you wanted in regards to kaz quest.

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