I think that all the caster classes should lose their specializations. Spec healing, invocation, enchantment . . . they are all redundant now that you have split the caster class in so many ways. An invoker is spec invocation. duh. It is massively redundant, and contributes to the overpowering growth of all the caster classes. I mean think about it, chanters still have dscales . . . maybe it isn't so damn badass, and will let the builders lighten up on the mobs. If you are going to continue allowing the caster classes to specialize to show their area of expertise, then you should get rid of class-specific spells.
Specialization was fine when it was mostly just sorcs. Is he spec enchant or spec fire, etc. That was how the casters differentiated themselves. Now, the code has already done that, and the skill just overpowers them (in combination with class-only skills). I am sure someone can spend the time to make a clearer statement than I have, with details, facts, etc.
I am just trying to get the point across.
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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
Wizards and Specialization
Specialization is part of what keeps hybrid classes and class with spells that are primarily another classes domain from being as good as the core classes.
Shaman and Elementalist stones don't last as long as enchanters because of spec enchantment. Invokers fireballs do more dammage cause of spec invocation. Enchanters faerie fire doesn't work like illusionists.... and the list goes on.
Specialization does more than overpower things, it adds quite a bit to the game, otherwise enchanters would be just as good as elementalists.
-Zen
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The Lord of the Iron Wastes holds his hammer high in the air, shouting a torment... 'Weak fools!'
Shaman and Elementalist stones don't last as long as enchanters because of spec enchantment. Invokers fireballs do more dammage cause of spec invocation. Enchanters faerie fire doesn't work like illusionists.... and the list goes on.
Specialization does more than overpower things, it adds quite a bit to the game, otherwise enchanters would be just as good as elementalists.
-Zen
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The Lord of the Iron Wastes holds his hammer high in the air, shouting a torment... 'Weak fools!'
no they wouldnt
chanters cant get pets, embodiment. mentalists cant get dscale, major globe. vokers cant summon undead, and liches dont have swarm. just because 2 or 3 classes have a similar spell . . who cares that shaman stone skin is as good as enchanter? cap the spellcast enchant of shamans then if its a problem. high level chanters use dscale anyway - and no one else has that.
i seriously doubt that casters would become unplayable without specs, BUT it would balance out the role of hitters and casters within a group, by leveling the playing field just a bit.
giving casters spec spelltype is like giving rogues specializations in daggers . . . but we dont.
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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
chanters cant get pets, embodiment. mentalists cant get dscale, major globe. vokers cant summon undead, and liches dont have swarm. just because 2 or 3 classes have a similar spell . . who cares that shaman stone skin is as good as enchanter? cap the spellcast enchant of shamans then if its a problem. high level chanters use dscale anyway - and no one else has that.
i seriously doubt that casters would become unplayable without specs, BUT it would balance out the role of hitters and casters within a group, by leveling the playing field just a bit.
giving casters spec spelltype is like giving rogues specializations in daggers . . . but we dont.
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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
Eliminating Specialization heal would severely injure clerics abilities. Already our offensive capabilities are low, and that's when our primary offensive spells are healing classes.
Currently, my full heal will heal about 350-400 damage on average. It fluxuates a bit, but that's the general amount. A heal covers around 140-180ish I think, but it's been awhile since I watched that closely. Without specialize heal, regular heals would drop to 90-110 and fullheals would be reduced to probably 250-280hps each.
That's an enormous change to a cleric's effectiveness, and the primary beneficiaries of our spells are the tanks/hitters. Removing all specializations would increase player deaths by a very large amount, as stones/scales wouldn't last and then the heals wouldn't be able to cover the downtime between spells.
Oh, and vits would also be severely impacted, but I can't remember my vit numbers right now to quote. But cleric vits, often reserved for the tanks, are the best and are quite obviously stronger than any other class's vit.
It's a decent idea Daz. However, speaking only from a specialize healing user (haven't played any other casting class to specialization yet), I can say that losing that specialization would be catastrophic. And cleric have been specializing in heal for as long as I have played here, save for the occasional one that spec'd enchantment for vit. And now that vitality is classed as healing, well that wouldn't be happening.
Ashemiem
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Mplor group-says 'dugmaren must be very proud... he levels us up in smoke and de-levels us in muspelheim'
Currently, my full heal will heal about 350-400 damage on average. It fluxuates a bit, but that's the general amount. A heal covers around 140-180ish I think, but it's been awhile since I watched that closely. Without specialize heal, regular heals would drop to 90-110 and fullheals would be reduced to probably 250-280hps each.
That's an enormous change to a cleric's effectiveness, and the primary beneficiaries of our spells are the tanks/hitters. Removing all specializations would increase player deaths by a very large amount, as stones/scales wouldn't last and then the heals wouldn't be able to cover the downtime between spells.
Oh, and vits would also be severely impacted, but I can't remember my vit numbers right now to quote. But cleric vits, often reserved for the tanks, are the best and are quite obviously stronger than any other class's vit.
It's a decent idea Daz. However, speaking only from a specialize healing user (haven't played any other casting class to specialization yet), I can say that losing that specialization would be catastrophic. And cleric have been specializing in heal for as long as I have played here, save for the occasional one that spec'd enchantment for vit. And now that vitality is classed as healing, well that wouldn't be happening.
Ashemiem
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Mplor group-says 'dugmaren must be very proud... he levels us up in smoke and de-levels us in muspelheim'
so we make spec healing automatic and passive for clerics. i played a cleric for about a year, and made it up to res (joy) so i know where you are coming from with that handicap. I also played a caster for a few years, albeit a conjurer. i DID have a sorc, but thats almost irrelevant anymore.
from what i see now, the xp caps are a poor replacement for skill/spell balance among casters/hitters. let them level fast, i dont care. just stop making them more . . . powerful. as a level 44 warrior, ive got 40 days of playing time, a 30/30 hr/dr, and all my skills are just about maxed (even headbutt!). you put a mob in front of me that says 'fairly easy' and i promise you, even with a -100 ac and badass skills, i will be limping home from that fight. a caster often times will have nothing but memtime to recover from. chanters can protect from physical damage, necros and ellies have pets, ellies and illusionists have forms of fake healing. the only caster class that looks to be getting the shaft here is vokers, but jesus - look at their damage output. they would probably obliterate anything that stood in their way.
my suggestions about specialization were targeted to the mage classes, and i did not intend to handicap the clerics (indeed . . . of the 3 core classes, they are probably the best balanced currently).
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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
from what i see now, the xp caps are a poor replacement for skill/spell balance among casters/hitters. let them level fast, i dont care. just stop making them more . . . powerful. as a level 44 warrior, ive got 40 days of playing time, a 30/30 hr/dr, and all my skills are just about maxed (even headbutt!). you put a mob in front of me that says 'fairly easy' and i promise you, even with a -100 ac and badass skills, i will be limping home from that fight. a caster often times will have nothing but memtime to recover from. chanters can protect from physical damage, necros and ellies have pets, ellies and illusionists have forms of fake healing. the only caster class that looks to be getting the shaft here is vokers, but jesus - look at their damage output. they would probably obliterate anything that stood in their way.
my suggestions about specialization were targeted to the mage classes, and i did not intend to handicap the clerics (indeed . . . of the 3 core classes, they are probably the best balanced currently).
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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
attempts to get warrior specializations have been attempted since sos2 bbs. after 2+ years, I am under the impression that it won't happen. as far as hurting the caster classes . . . i think right now, that is the point. the impact on the casters could allow for alleviations and breaks on the part of the builders/zones/mobs that are getting ridiculously powerful.
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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by torkur:
Downgrades in spells would only hurt the people with less eq...a small upgrade in melee damage wouldn't kill anyone as long as they don't become monks.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I actually think that at this point - eq is almost moot. Like Gormal said earlier . . . a mage can get insane amounts of hit points very easily. I doubt my conjurer ever had more than 250 - 300hp worth of eq, and at the time that was fine. Now, 500+ hp worth of eq can be gotten without breaking your back if you put some effort into it.
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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
Downgrades in spells would only hurt the people with less eq...a small upgrade in melee damage wouldn't kill anyone as long as they don't become monks.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I actually think that at this point - eq is almost moot. Like Gormal said earlier . . . a mage can get insane amounts of hit points very easily. I doubt my conjurer ever had more than 250 - 300hp worth of eq, and at the time that was fine. Now, 500+ hp worth of eq can be gotten without breaking your back if you put some effort into it.
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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
A reworking of the spell specializations is certainly a possibility. However, the object of such a venture would be to add variety to the caster classes, not to downgrade.
Removing of all speciliazations is simply not going to happen - the mage classes rely on those skills for balance. You might as well ask to remove the offense skill from hitters or something.
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<B>Shevarash -- Code Forger of Sojourn3
</B>
Removing of all speciliazations is simply not going to happen - the mage classes rely on those skills for balance. You might as well ask to remove the offense skill from hitters or something.
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<B>Shevarash -- Code Forger of Sojourn3
</B>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Shevarash:
A reworking of the spell specializations is certainly a possibility. However, the object of such a venture would be to add variety to the caster classes, not to downgrade.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Isn't there enough variety in the caster classes? I'm about sick of the variety. Let's get some hitter variety. Lets make different types of warriors. Lets have tank warriors. Lets have hitter warriors. Lets have skill-spec warriors (shieldpunch/hitall/kick/etc). Or are you saying that we, as warriors should have to demarcate our skills with equipment, while casters are given innate skills to do the same for them? Haven't most of the warrior posts stemmed from the fact that there is a serious lack of variety on the part of warriors/hitters? Everyone strives for pretty much the same equipment, with of course the interchangeables thrown in to supply the fix during times when improvisation is called for.
You guys have done an amazing job with casters, adding new classes and specializations and spells and the like . . . but hell, hitters just got kind of smiled at and pat on the head.
I don't want to sound like im double-speaking here, I really DO think you did a great job with the casters, but focusing all that attention on them has left us warriors feeling neglected. We have debated around in circles about new skills for warriors, and even we agree that the solution is NOT to give us more power or abilities. So the solution must be elsewhere, and after looking at the current issues we have in the game - a LOT of them stem from power/balance issues. The most noteable shift in power/skills/balance, I think we can all agree (?) has come with the newfound powers of the mage subclasses. You have defined the new mage with individual skills and powers, and then accentuated those same skills and powers with specializations. It is not variety, I think it is overpowering. Having straddled the fence, I really do feel that the mage classes are, in many (not all) instances, drunk with their own power. As a warrior, I wish I could solo anything without being the most elite decked out character in the game. Any mage can, with even only a moderate level of equipment, solo many monsters that a warrior could never dream of.
Yes, its a team game . . . but why use the word balance if its not applied universally?
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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
A reworking of the spell specializations is certainly a possibility. However, the object of such a venture would be to add variety to the caster classes, not to downgrade.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Isn't there enough variety in the caster classes? I'm about sick of the variety. Let's get some hitter variety. Lets make different types of warriors. Lets have tank warriors. Lets have hitter warriors. Lets have skill-spec warriors (shieldpunch/hitall/kick/etc). Or are you saying that we, as warriors should have to demarcate our skills with equipment, while casters are given innate skills to do the same for them? Haven't most of the warrior posts stemmed from the fact that there is a serious lack of variety on the part of warriors/hitters? Everyone strives for pretty much the same equipment, with of course the interchangeables thrown in to supply the fix during times when improvisation is called for.
You guys have done an amazing job with casters, adding new classes and specializations and spells and the like . . . but hell, hitters just got kind of smiled at and pat on the head.
I don't want to sound like im double-speaking here, I really DO think you did a great job with the casters, but focusing all that attention on them has left us warriors feeling neglected. We have debated around in circles about new skills for warriors, and even we agree that the solution is NOT to give us more power or abilities. So the solution must be elsewhere, and after looking at the current issues we have in the game - a LOT of them stem from power/balance issues. The most noteable shift in power/skills/balance, I think we can all agree (?) has come with the newfound powers of the mage subclasses. You have defined the new mage with individual skills and powers, and then accentuated those same skills and powers with specializations. It is not variety, I think it is overpowering. Having straddled the fence, I really do feel that the mage classes are, in many (not all) instances, drunk with their own power. As a warrior, I wish I could solo anything without being the most elite decked out character in the game. Any mage can, with even only a moderate level of equipment, solo many monsters that a warrior could never dream of.
Yes, its a team game . . . but why use the word balance if its not applied universally?
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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
As a level 50 ranger, equipped on the upper end of the spectrum, I still have to think twice about taking on a dock master 1 vs. 1. This is with a -100 armor class, a sword that procs blind, maxxed skills and a hit/dam of 33/39 after I blind the mob. It'll rely on a lot of luck and probably some beach trips. And this mob is the staple exp of mages 15 levels lower than I
Just an added exclamation mark to Daz's point of caster strengths vs. hitter.
Sylvos Winteraven
Just an added exclamation mark to Daz's point of caster strengths vs. hitter.
Sylvos Winteraven
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Tanji Smanji
- Sojourner
- Posts: 765
- Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2002 5:01 am
- Location: Atlanta, Georgia
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gormal:
<B>For someone who doesnt play the game at the top level you sure have alot of opinions on how the top players/skills should be Daz.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just because its not important to me that I am better than everyone else, does not make me less of a player than you. You rush to get equipment, I run around WD helping new players and teaching people how to play. I have been here 7-8 years, so I have my share of tenure. You get your rocks off, I'll get mine.
I happen to be satisfied running around with newbies. They don't have an attitude like yours.
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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
<B>For someone who doesnt play the game at the top level you sure have alot of opinions on how the top players/skills should be Daz.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just because its not important to me that I am better than everyone else, does not make me less of a player than you. You rush to get equipment, I run around WD helping new players and teaching people how to play. I have been here 7-8 years, so I have my share of tenure. You get your rocks off, I'll get mine.
I happen to be satisfied running around with newbies. They don't have an attitude like yours.
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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
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kiryan
- Sojourner
- Posts: 7275
- Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
- Contact:
Could we say that rangers are not only specialized but also varied in their skills?
Warriors are probably the most specialized of the melee classes. their specialization is extremely boring and relatively passive (hps, tanking, rescue triggers) is it any less boring than the clerics who basically cast full heal and vit? What kind of variety would you add to them? tank variety? damage dealing variety? circus tricks? #1 = sick considering current abilty to tank, #2 = bad since damage based melee classes jockey for position as it is, #3 = completely worthless in terms of fun and utility (see ranger threads for details).
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where ara you my rittle raabuuri
Warriors are probably the most specialized of the melee classes. their specialization is extremely boring and relatively passive (hps, tanking, rescue triggers) is it any less boring than the clerics who basically cast full heal and vit? What kind of variety would you add to them? tank variety? damage dealing variety? circus tricks? #1 = sick considering current abilty to tank, #2 = bad since damage based melee classes jockey for position as it is, #3 = completely worthless in terms of fun and utility (see ranger threads for details).
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where ara you my rittle raabuuri
Your killing your father larry!
What you're not bored enough sitting around waiting to rescue the poor defenseless mages? Can you not handle using all of your warrior skills? If i have to suck at bashing to rescue well, or if i can't tank for jack if i want to shieldpunch, then im pretty god damn useless now aren't i? Skill specialization would only further limit the already limited role warriors play in groups, albeit the necessary. I don't know about boring, but i guess it is boring if your a warrior robot Warriors used to be the only necessary melee class in groups at all, now we gave up damage to rogues and rangers and are primarily a meatshield, with a few quirks in battle skills that are useful from time to time. Hell most of the really hard mobs arent bashable anyway. By specializing skills you would just be breaking up the already meager warrior portion of usefulnessinto an even smaller group. Warriors are fine, the only thing i can even think of that i would want added to the class is some kind of skill that prevents dragons from scaring me out of the room. Maybe its just cuz im a barbarian, but is it really that likely that a battle hardened highlevel warrior would run in fear at the roar of a dragon? Maybe the first time, but once you know it is coming its not so scary anymore. Maybe a passive skill like fortitude or something to keep us from running away from the dragon that even the halfling bard isn't scared of. Or better yet, give US roar so we can make the MOBS flee. That would rule. Seriously though, we're not gonna get roar cuz thats rediculous but something that makes us not run from roars as a skill would be a benefit to warriors, after all, who wants a tank that flees?
O'doyle Rules!
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Thanuk Pantherclaw
What you're not bored enough sitting around waiting to rescue the poor defenseless mages? Can you not handle using all of your warrior skills? If i have to suck at bashing to rescue well, or if i can't tank for jack if i want to shieldpunch, then im pretty god damn useless now aren't i? Skill specialization would only further limit the already limited role warriors play in groups, albeit the necessary. I don't know about boring, but i guess it is boring if your a warrior robot
Warriors used to be the only necessary melee class in groups at all, now we gave up damage to rogues and rangers and are primarily a meatshield, with a few quirks in battle skills that are useful from time to time. Hell most of the really hard mobs arent bashable anyway. By specializing skills you would just be breaking up the already meager warrior portion of usefulnessinto an even smaller group. Warriors are fine, the only thing i can even think of that i would want added to the class is some kind of skill that prevents dragons from scaring me out of the room. Maybe its just cuz im a barbarian, but is it really that likely that a battle hardened highlevel warrior would run in fear at the roar of a dragon? Maybe the first time, but once you know it is coming its not so scary anymore. Maybe a passive skill like fortitude or something to keep us from running away from the dragon that even the halfling bard isn't scared of. Or better yet, give US roar so we can make the MOBS flee. That would rule. Seriously though, we're not gonna get roar cuz thats rediculous but something that makes us not run from roars as a skill would be a benefit to warriors, after all, who wants a tank that flees?O'doyle Rules!
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Thanuk Pantherclaw
the only specialization i could see warrior wise would be a weapons specialization that you could pick a weapon class specialize in it and do a bit more damage in that particular type, whereas you would get a penalty for any other weapon type being used. problem with it is everyone would pick 1hslashing.
as for people squaking about hitpoints, the reason you had 1/2 the hitpoints last wipe was because elementals took the beatings for all of us.
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Grul-Diggity!
as for people squaking about hitpoints, the reason you had 1/2 the hitpoints last wipe was because elementals took the beatings for all of us.
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Grul-Diggity!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B> I actually think that at this point - eq is almost moot. Like Gormal said earlier . . . a mage can get insane amounts of hit points very easily. I doubt my conjurer ever had more than 250 - 300hp worth of eq, and at the time that was fine. Now, 500+ hp worth of eq can be gotten without breaking your back if you put some effort into it.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Heh, don't forget j00 oldskool. YOU can get 500hps of eq easy, but sometimes the real n00bs are spending months trying to get even 200hps added on so I can take them along with a hope they'll survive half of the zone.
Not a condemnation, just pointing out that relative ease is very different when you don't know anything.
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Iyara tells you 'ahh! hey, you're the spank guy huh - I've seen your logs!'
<B> I actually think that at this point - eq is almost moot. Like Gormal said earlier . . . a mage can get insane amounts of hit points very easily. I doubt my conjurer ever had more than 250 - 300hp worth of eq, and at the time that was fine. Now, 500+ hp worth of eq can be gotten without breaking your back if you put some effort into it.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Heh, don't forget j00 oldskool. YOU can get 500hps of eq easy, but sometimes the real n00bs are spending months trying to get even 200hps added on so I can take them along with a hope they'll survive half of the zone.
Not a condemnation, just pointing out that relative ease is very different when you don't know anything.
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Iyara tells you 'ahh! hey, you're the spank guy huh - I've seen your logs!'
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