Influx of Uber EQ

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Gormal
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Influx of Uber EQ

Postby Gormal » Sun Aug 25, 2002 4:58 pm

I was sitting around last night and I began to ponder over all the new eq that is flooding into the mud. I remember my eq last wipe which was just a few items away from perfect and only half of it now would be considered the top.

Prot equipment is rampant. ET earrings, Musp eq, and what about all this new prot all eq? Dartan is 2x perm prot all as well as one called prot all...and he doesnt even have dragon robes of gayness. (not dissing on dartan he quested/ got his shit fair and square) I'm just tryign to illustrate how much eq has suddenly jumped into the mud.

Prot cold used to be hard to get... greyhomes, skullsmasher, thrym token, efreeti ring, nothlands boots....nothing with uber stats as WELL as prot cold...you ahd to sacrifice something to get it...whether it be a shield or 60 hp from a ring...15 from neck... now I can piecemeal prot all so easily.

every weapon now has a proc, eq is getting beefier and beefier in zones.... i know someone who is 2 items away from being 20/50 with maxcon notch, plenty of ss sb and prots.

Lets put a hold on eq coming into the mud thats a touch better then anything else out there...no matter how uber the quest. Players are already too powerful and this just makes it that much easier. When was the last time you left a sitter in brimirs? How often do groups truly spank now? I dumped all my cr gear long ago as did most people.

Personally I'm all for small downgrades on alot of the new eq thats been put in...ET most notably. Shrug just my 2 cents flame away.

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Postby Jegzed » Sun Aug 25, 2002 5:31 pm

This comes from the person who said "1 hit and a sv_spell extra on an item does not matter much" when defending his quest reward.

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Postby Gormal » Sun Aug 25, 2002 6:28 pm

since swedes have innate_retard i wont hold that against you.

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Postby apprentice » Sun Aug 25, 2002 6:28 pm

Cough muspelheim and clouds eq everything in muspel is like at least 10 AC and clouds > all
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Postby Jegzed » Sun Aug 25, 2002 6:35 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gormal:
<B>since swedes have innate_retard i wont hold that against you.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Image



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Postby Gormal » Sun Aug 25, 2002 7:02 pm

sorry that person was 30/50 i was just corrected.

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Postby Jegzed » Sun Aug 25, 2002 7:09 pm

I agree that we have power nowadays..
But 50% of the online time we can't even zone at all cause lack of numbers.

There is a much easier way to balance this.

Reduce maxcap on group-size to 10.

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Postby apprentice » Sun Aug 25, 2002 7:16 pm

1)downgrade vits size, duration with 20%
2)downgrade dragonscales max hp protected against and duration with 20%
3)downgrade displace effectivenes (dunno how it works)

Instant downgrade of player strength, and mostly only affecting high level players since stoneskin unnafected.
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Postby rylan » Sun Aug 25, 2002 7:35 pm

I don't think its just eq.. a major factor is a good chunk of the player base has been around for a while, and is quite good at differant strategies and knows how to avoid a full spank. There are still plenty of times we get slapped around and lost 3/4 the group, but people are smart enough to usually keep someone alive to prevent a really ugly cr.

And to be honest, those downgrade suggestions I don't see having much effect on tanks.. it'll only make the casters die more in zones, which they already do plenty.

PC melee damage output was already effectively downgraded when mob defensive skills were fixed.. notice how much big stuff dodges now? So from this spell damage outweighs melee even more now. I was used to having melee only groups for a long time, and it led to challanging zones and fights.. now if we bring a couple nukers the mobs get wrecked (except for stuff with wacky MR).

[This message has been edited by rylan (edited 08-25-2002).]
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Postby Dalar » Sun Aug 25, 2002 9:54 pm

I'd just like to say my stuff was _very_ hard to get and took lots of time and dedication. Seeing people get prot all from those easy to get ET earrings pisses me off. With hps AND prots mages don't have to worry about hps. Back in the day people like Cullen would sac a prime piece of eq (falcons of eldritch) just for pfc. Now you don't have to b/c the best hp earring for casters has pfc on it (ET earring or sky metal).

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Postby kiryan » Sun Aug 25, 2002 11:02 pm

i agree eq is getting more and more powerful. I don't think this is good.

In particular i think we need to look at warrior gear that has hps and damroll, procing weapons (especially gythka and MD sword), and the amount of saves on HP gear.

I fully disagree with restoring prots to their relatively hard to come by state. Fuking dragons are all over the place and dragon breath code is guaranteed to nuke bags first. im glad that prot cold and prot acid are far easier to obtain than before and i sure hope that we don't suddenly decide that prots are too powerful like we did to !summon.

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Postby Daz » Mon Aug 26, 2002 12:02 am

if stats/skills weren't so badass, then i don't think the dragons would be as needed :P


lets bring sorcies back, and let specialization decide what type of caster you are.

btw - isn't an invoker specializing in invocation sort of redundant?

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Postby Malacar » Mon Aug 26, 2002 12:12 am

Let's not forget one thing on this rampant 'downgrade' thread.

The MOBS are getting much harder too. I fully agree with a lot of the equipment stats in lieu of how hard and rough some mobs are getting. Back in the day of hard to get pfc, there weren't even 1/2 the dragons there are now, much less the ones that breathe all.

Not to mention mobs that were classed specifically as invoker or enchanter, and mob AI has been revamped.

So keep that in mind before you call for a blanket downgrade or hold of equipment.

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Postby Kifle » Mon Aug 26, 2002 1:43 am

I kinda remember a while back that there was a whine post about how PFC was so hard to come by while PFF was rampant. Isnt this a little backwards?

You get what you ask for sometimes and that is the bottom line.

As far as what would make the game more challanging...Well, kick some players like dorn, dartan, lilithelle, corth, touk, etc out of the game so the others will lead and get spanked more. Like rylan said, this is the main reason why things are easier. A simple prot will help your eq not to poof, not to help you live. +dam doesnt help when mobs dodge like an MF'er. The only thing that could be considered to be downgraded is voker damage. I love you vokers, but sheesh, You should spank in the scorpking fight and vokers just make that room cake. 2nd gatehouse should be feared, but multiple 9th/10th lvl areas make it cake.

It is simple, the longer the mob lives, the harder it will be to kill it and the more damage it can do. Make silence hit less. !bash casters are not even scary to me anymore when i have compentant silencers in the group. Upgrading the HPS of mobs will just make rogues and rangers less useful for damage, and rangers would then become more obsolete because rogues have more uses than damage in the group. Downgrade vokers a bit, they will still be really useful for their area damage.

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Postby Daz » Mon Aug 26, 2002 2:38 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
<B>Upgrading the HPS of mobs will just make rogues and rangers less useful for damage, and rangers would then become more obsolete because rogues have more uses than damage in the group.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only if you make silence work on rangers.

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Postby torkur » Mon Aug 26, 2002 3:05 am

I'd suggest you play an invoker before you ask for them to be downgraded.

An invoker lasts <3 rounds in second gatehouse of jot without a good stoner,healer, and warriors. You can't cast 1 inferno in that time.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Aug 26, 2002 5:28 am

Like all muds past and future, Sojourn is arms racing. I never thought I'd EVER see the day when a prot-all item was introduced. Ragorn on S2 had three prots, and he sacrificed to get two of them. Windsong is junk equipment now, second-rate ranger gear. The mud has advanced past 85% of what I considered to be strong equipment at the end of last wipe.

And to compensate, what's happened? Player defensive skill fixes, mobs that crit and kill scaled players in a single round, improved mob spell AI that casts more than just cloud, etc. Are the top zones now TRULY any easier or harder than the top zones were in wipes past? I don't know, not having been there. Is Muspel now really more time consuming and spank-arific than jot invasion was two years ago at this time?

It's just equipment escalation, and now that the point system for equipment has been removed or reworked, there's practically no limit on what can be achieved with equipment. We're very rapidly approaching Toril status, when even a half-dressed ranger could achieve 30 damroll. Ragorn had 32 damroll at the end of last wipe, very respectable and probably within the top ten percentile on the mud. 32 damroll nowadays is what... about right for someone level 40 or so?

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Postby cherzra » Mon Aug 26, 2002 7:43 am

Err, I walk around with 26/23 and 2 prots.

1)If all veteran leaders stop playing, look at the carnage that will ensue. Zones like Jot will become insanely hard and more uber stuff will remain undone for a year or even longer.

2)Stop whining about gythka and MD sword, these don't make or break a battle. Uber defensive spells and every caster being an invoker these days do. How many people use these swords in zones? I sure as hell don't count any. And you realize that a rogue with even a newbie dagger can major para, blind and full harm any mob?

3)Clouds and other zones need to be looked at. It shouldn't be possible that EVERY piece of eq from a zone is better than everything else. I've done clouds, and it's _not_ that hard.

4)If something is powerful yet easily attainable (ET earrings?), it should be downed.

5)Anyone with dragonscales, displace, blur, barskskin, armor, vitality, elemental embodiment, haste, doppleganger, globe, that defense song and death pact IS too powerful. Warrior defensive skills don't mean shit, it's all spells. Downgrade several of these spells.

6)Every class is an invoker these days. Casters beat the living shit out of any room even if you don't have invokers with you. This isn't that bad, but when combined with everything mentioned above it is.

It's stupid that instead of new zones having 1 or 2 'better' pieces of eq (with drawbacks), some zones have ALL pieces better than everything. With no -stat or -something else to compensate.
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Postby Kifle » Mon Aug 26, 2002 12:16 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by torkur:
<B>I'd suggest you play an invoker before you ask for them to be downgraded.

An invoker lasts <3 rounds in second gatehouse of jot without a good stoner,healer, and warriors. You can't cast 1 inferno in that time.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have played an invoker...and an invoker will last more than 3 rounds in 2nd gathouse even with crappy warriors, its a fleeable fight and if you dont flee you are the one that is making mistakes not the warrior...its called rescue lag. Trust me invokers deal out way too much damage as opposed to any other class...shit an invoker probably deals out more damage with an area spell to each mob than i can in 2 rounds to one mob.

I am not bitching saying rogues suck because rogues are about the best class in the game IMO, but as far as zones being easy, i think that has to do with, in part, invoker damage.

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Postby Zoldren » Mon Aug 26, 2002 3:02 pm

Yes invokers do more damage than everyone else...
its there forkin job
plvln a voker does not make you a voker *not pointing fingers*..
playing/knowing your class doing multiple crs/zones as char etc etc...

its vokers job to do damage,
but if you think about it like cherzra said everyones an invoker now....eventhought they dont have the class.

and everyone who wants to downgrade/upgrade stuff..

think about the true n00b players here who arnt "elite" or havent played here for years

you upgrade/downgrade shit you dont screw the elites you just screw the newbs who play to have fun and need those extra people/easy eq items etc...
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Postby Gyrx » Mon Aug 26, 2002 3:35 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
3)Clouds and other zones need to be looked at. It shouldn't be possible that EVERY piece of eq from a zone is better than everything else. I've done clouds, and it's _not_ that hard.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Clouds isn't as hard now as it was when it was first put in, a few months ago we were still doing 8 hour cloud runs. Now we just have people that know exactly what to do whenever any situation happens.

I remember dying there over 7 times on night, and 4 of which were just me dying, then i'd ask for fly get shifted in and run around so I could hold the pop.

Clouds still has just as much spank potential as before. It is hard, we just know what we're doing. It's a whole hell of a lot harder then scorps, muspel, and all that shit.

But I do agree with the idea that clouds simply as too much good eq, but with all the krap that you need to do, if eq gets moved out, certain things should be changed accordingly. Please, if changes are coming, DON'T just downgrade and leave the quests the same, or move eq and leave the quests the same. That will just kill the zone. It's a wonderful zone.

Scorps has at least 4 of the best/nearly pieces of eq in the game and a much needed quest item, and the zone is a whole hell of a lot easier then clouds.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">4)If something is powerful yet easily attainable (ET earrings?), it should be downed.</font>


I've only done ET once, but I tend to strongly agree.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">5)Anyone with dragonscales, displace, blur, barskskin, armor, vitality, elemental embodiment, haste, doppleganger, globe, that defense song and death pact IS too powerful. Warrior defensive skills don't mean shit, it's all spells. Downgrade several of these spells.</font>


Spells are too powerful, but this is a topic i've given up on for awhile.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">It's stupid that instead of new zones having 1 or 2 'better' pieces of eq (with drawbacks), some zones have ALL pieces better than everything. With no -stat or -something else to compensate.</font>


There is a ton of top notch gear from OLD zones that have no drawbacks. Negative side affects shouldn't be always used, hell I think that's the difference between the best and nearly the best..the best shouldn't always have negative side affects.

But yes, too many new zones have the majority of their items better then anything else. But then again the fights are longer, harder, and more advanced.. People will just skip the new zone fights if it isn't worth it.

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[This message has been edited by Gyrx (edited 08-26-2002).]
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Postby kiryan » Mon Aug 26, 2002 3:43 pm

daz, hillarious i actually enjoyed that post.

chez,

1) totally agree. having had 7 years to learn how to beat the game has made all of us very good at it. theres no good solution, if you make the game harder, new people probably won't be able to hack it.

2) im not gonna stop bitching about gythka and md, the two best 2handers in the game for a warrior. ill have my opinion you have yours.

the damage procs are irrestible, two of the utility procs are freaking awesome on gythka (slow and para) and how can you shake a stick at blind on Md, both have great dice hit and dam and do tremendous damage that puts the former god weapons twilight (even windsong if you can think outside the box) to shame. Gythka is pretty hard to get, but the procs are too many too often and does too much damage. You should have to sacrifice something to get procs that awesome or dice/dam that awesome. I am assuming that eqd damroll is not going to be allowed to jump up much more. And I'm not partial to twilight, just using it as a reference since it got downgraded once upon a time when we were trying to balance the game. Now there is shit that puts it to shame. rogues have to apply poison and I think the blind para and slow rate need to be looked at on those too, it hits pretty damn often imo.

3) absolutely agree however i definitely think clouds is a damn hard zone. it may seem easier now that people have learned what it takes and don't attempt it with just any 15 man group, however I've had my ass spanked off for 7 straight hours with what looked like a great group due to some unlucky grid encounters.

4) agree, ET earrings however I don't think were too good for thier risk. of course i haven't done ET since it was changed, and I'm not up on any strategies other than fuck it charge for second floor.

5) you forgot ancestal shield =) and definitely agree that warrior defensive skills are less than 10% of what keeps him alive in zone. I do not want to see old crit code back but 1 warrior should not be able to tank 5+ 50ish mobs without breaking a sweat and extremely good play by his defensive crew.

6) hmm somewhat disagree, invokers are a notch above everyone else by far. However i've gained a lot of respect for rogue melee dam and archery in the last 6 months. The price you pay for the safety of invoker damage is mem time.

Mem time seems a bit too trivial to me... 8 seconds for a 10th circle spell? Also, remember when we used to mem when we needed it? gone are the days of spell restraint for efficiency... most casters just start throwing spells like mad every fight... i suggest we think about why we should be able to mem so many spells and why its possible to mem so quickly... one enchanter dragonscaling an entire group of 15... 4 10th circle spells, 6 9th, 12 1st ect... is a lot of freaking spells. I say we look at scaling it back maybe get 1 at 46, 1 at 50 especially the higher circle stuff. ok maybe 1 at 48 too then.

I definitely dislike how many effects have been added to damage spells many of which do great damage (well not compared to force missile).

I do like how you don't have to have an invoker... its good that you can do most things with lots of dam or with lots of defense.


kifle,

easy zones has to do with people not dieing. one death can be a catastrophic event mid fight, also tends to mean 5-15 minutes of wasted time ressing/lotting. lots of us have had 7 years to learn how to not die. thats important. also very important is insta rescue and the ability for a warrior to tank 5+ mobs without breaking a sweat due to his insane defensive spells. obviously dead mobs make this easier, but I don't see more spanks happening or zones getting harder just because you downgraded invoker dam. there are a shit load of area spells.

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Postby Malacar » Mon Aug 26, 2002 4:45 pm

As for ET...

If your group isn't paying attention, or you have newer players, you're gonna have a buncha deaths. The zone -can- be hard.

Don't forget, almost all the posts here so far are based solely off of older, more experienced players. Granted, that is the majority of the pbase these days..

ET earrings, in my opinion only, aren't 'the best'. I use winds/fires only because of the saves.. Down them to 10hp for all I care, I wouldn't bat an eyelash. Take the prots off, again, no effect to me. That might be a decent solution.. Make them 10hp.

I'd like to see fireweeds go up to 15, though. And gain 1 more svbre. They are damned rare.. Not hard to get, but rare.

And don't forget... ET earrings are semi-rare(grain of salt, people!).. They don't load every time. Image

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Postby Gormal » Mon Aug 26, 2002 5:22 pm

I do more damage with twilight then gythka. As will and antipal with the evil md sword. Also twilight has its perms to make it good. Gythkas procs are not overdone...you lose your crit hit each time you goo, it doesnt work on many types of mobs due to crit code....

The thing that you are forgetting kiryan is that when you 2h you lose some utility of shieldpunch shieldblock etc... 2handers are supposed to do good damage. Plus on good side we have much lower crit rates then you do... so we proc alot less.

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Postby Jegzed » Mon Aug 26, 2002 6:02 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gormal:
<B>The thing that you are forgetting kiryan is that when you 2h you lose some utility of shieldpunch shieldblock etc... 2handers are supposed to do good damage. Plus on good side we have much lower crit rates then you do... so we proc alot less.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, dwarf and duergars have higher crit rate than trolls.


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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Aug 26, 2002 7:06 pm

Ever accidentally post in the wrong thread? How in the world did that get there?!

[This message has been edited by Ashiwi (edited 08-26-2002).]
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Postby Kifle » Mon Aug 26, 2002 11:25 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
<B>kifle,

easy zones has to do with people not dieing. one death can be a catastrophic event mid fight, also tends to mean 5-15 minutes of wasted time ressing/lotting. lots of us have had 7 years to learn how to not die. thats important. also very important is insta rescue and the ability for a warrior to tank 5+ mobs without breaking a sweat due to his insane defensive spells. obviously dead mobs make this easier, but I don't see more spanks happening or zones getting harder just because you downgraded invoker dam. there are a shit load of area spells.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OH yeah, thanks for telling me all of this person that assumes i have only played this wipe and know nothing about the game whatsoever.

Look, when mobs die faster, the group dies less its a simple fact. The less damage you do to a mob, the slower it dies. Invokers do too much damage how it is now. Yes, you can say "whine, but thats what we are supposed to do", yeah well fine. I dont care that you do more damage than me...I have no complex about it, but i think it plays a role into how easy zones have become.

Yeah, tanks can tank 5+ mobs easy, but so couldnt 1.3k firementals back on toril? so you take a 15 man group back then and you add at least on more player with over 1k hps that tanks better than any player does nowdays and tell me that this is the main problem.

I never said this was the sole problem, but it would be the easiest to fix i would think, and it would be the most beneficial...maybe not to you invokers that like to have 30 second gatehouse fights and love uber damage, but to those of us who want zones challenging again.

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Postby torkur » Tue Aug 27, 2002 5:24 am

Kifle, if you're casting you're going to get switched to in 2nd gatehouse. It's the warrior's job to rescue you, not for you to flee or you won't get off half your spells. There are reasons to not flee some fights and there are reasons to flee others, but if an invoker flees there, they're dumb and they do not know the class.

You cast, you die, or you retreat west to the silent room to remem spells. I have done it many times as the warrior rescuing the invokers and as the invoker. Switches are not the invokers concern and you have enough else to worry about if you know how to play the class.

This is the same difference as that between a warrior being lazy as hell and using rescue triggers, or one who makes his own system to rescue, learns which mobs switch to which chars with which consistency in which zones, and knows how to play. My warrior uses hotkeys, my typing ability, and no triggers, and he beats a lot of the trigger sets to rescuing casters because I have practiced how to do it in the zones I've been to and know what to expect from what fights.

Again, for those of us who zone with an invoker, I suggest you try leveling up an invoker to 46+ without throwing 500 hp of eq on him, without having your friends do the spell quests for you, and see how well you do instead of just playing one as an alt before you whine. It's not that invokers do too much damage, it's that other classes do too much and still have the defensive/buff spells for tanks.
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Postby Kifle » Tue Aug 27, 2002 8:35 am

Omg you are such an assuming editedbadword.

1. I know damn well how to play an invoker. If you dont flee when in a fleeable fight and wait for a rescue in any situation where you are about to die you deserve to die. Rescuing doesnt always work and if you expect it to you are an ass.

2. This has nothing to do with the damage that an invoker does so you are whining about nothing relevent here.

3. Dont assume my characters are plvled...Dont assume my rogue is my main. With my rogue alone i soloed until i was 41st lvl just about, i grouped ship maybe once or twice.

4. So, i assume you did everybit of you spellquests yourself, had no items given to you, had no hints, etc... my ass...I have done virtually every quest I know by myself except for trollbark, a calimport one, and maybe another somewhere along the line. Other than that I am quite capable of doing things on my own and have.

Shit, at this point I dont care, keep the zones easy and i will just eq 5 other alts and various n00bs. Doesnt really matter.

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"Kill them all, God will know his own." -Domingo de Guzman, A.K.A Saint Dominic

Kifle, if you want to look like an ass and risk being banned from the bbs, continue using name-calling in your posts, otherwise please stop.
Erevan

[This message has been edited by Erevan (edited 08-27-2002).]
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Postby cherzra » Tue Aug 27, 2002 9:07 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by torkur:
<B>a warrior being lazy as hell and using rescue triggers, or one who makes his own system to rescue, learns which mobs switch to which chars with which consistency in which zones, and knows how to play. My warrior uses hotkeys, my typing ability, and no triggers, and he beats a lot of the trigger sets to rescuing casters because I have practiced how to do it in the zones I've been to and know what to expect from what fights.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll take that challenge, and I'll beat you 10 out of 10 times. I use triggers because I hate to type for several reasons. But even if I didn't mind typing, there is no better way to do high-end zones and keep your casters alive than with triggers. And yes, I know what switches when, what might walk in, who will get switched to in what situation and these events are all provided for.

When you see 'switches targets', do you wait for someone to get hit before you know who to rescue? Or do you spam your rescue A hotkey, then rescue B, then rescue C and rescue D? If you have to type look or wait for someone to get hit then you cause spanks. If you hit all your rescue shortkeys, you're doing the same as a trigger but without the RSI pain.

You're entitled to do whatever you want, but the moment you say you're better than triggers I feel obliged to reply.
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Postby Jurdex » Tue Aug 27, 2002 11:34 am

I never liked rescue triggers, but someone with a good set of rescue triggers is damn hard to beat. I used to rescue by hand when I played Jurdex, and Thorgil had a badass rescue triggerset, and he usually beat me when there weren't multiple rescues going on. I prided myself the times I did beat him though. Was kinda fun!

I think rescue triggers take a lot of fun out of being a tank, but when you say you'll beat them.. heh. Not very often.

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Postby Corth » Tue Aug 27, 2002 12:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Look, when mobs die faster, the group dies less its a simple fact. The less damage you do to a mob, the slower it dies. Invokers do too much damage how it is now. Yes, you can say "whine, but thats what we are supposed to do", yeah well fine. I dont care that you do more damage than me...I have no complex about it, but i think it plays a role into how easy zones have become.
[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen.

Another reason why splitting sorc's into invokers and enchanters was a bad idea.

People who defend invoker damage are correct. If they did less damage they would be worthless (because other casting classes do a lot more damage these days). But on the other hand, invokers do so much damage that they greatly contribute to zones being too easy.

Now imagine all the invokers and enchanters are turned back into sorc's. Spell damage is still key, but you can't twink zones with invokers anymore. Melee classes come close to being relevent again. Enchanters who complained that they mem out during most fights now have some offensive abilities. And tanking becomes a lot harder because instead of dragonscales you have stone. Would make the mud a lot more challenging without adding 12 mobs to each fight.. but i guess i probably posted this in the wrong thread a few years too late.

Corth


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[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 08-27-2002).]
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Postby kiryan » Tue Aug 27, 2002 3:42 pm

remove inferno and force missile or remove dragonscales and displace...

which will directly contribute to more deaths in the average zone?

defense is what has made zoning easier, not offense. remove invokers completely and we will still walk all over zones.

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where ara you my rittle raabuuri
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Postby torkur » Tue Aug 27, 2002 4:43 pm

I'm not going to follow the name calling tend, thanks. So if you have an invoker so high level you know them better than I do, who is she? There are some, but I doubt you're maedor, teppen, mplor, zoldren, jaznolg.....

1) I never said not to flee a fleeable fight, I said you're dumb to do it in 2nd gatehouse.

Reasons: (1) any displace/stone/heals being cast on you, you just aborted
(2) You're there to do DAMAGE, not sit
(3) you flee into a silent room (can't ask for a heal/stone there) or you flee into a potentially aggro room because the guards wander
(4) some leaders say don't flee
(5) you have NO defense anyway so you can't heal/stone yourself and reenter, thus you're useless or you risk reentering anyways
(6) if you flee out from a spank/switch/bad luck, it's !tele and you are the worst tank in the game, so you can't get the rest of the group back there with gate, can't hide/sneak, pwt, etc
(7) invokers are low on the switch list because we can't do anything to save yourselves, thus if you stay, you're more likely to get a heal/rescue before you die.
(8) The guards switch so much that they are likely to switch off you and go to a cleric/shaman (prime switch target for frost giants)
(9) Casting 1 extra spell can make/break many fights.
(10) Many groups do jot with 1 invoker or don't even bother to have one, so people will laugh 9 times out of 10 and label you as someone who flees combat and won't be taken back. I've seen it and done it.
You want more reasons?

2) Invokers are 1-sided. Damage balanced by losing everything else, less hp, bad xp tables, 33% damage xp. Period. If you don't see that making a downgrade in damage to this class would make them awful, especially with nothing else to gain for it and leaving everyone else's damage/buffing spells alone.....heh, RP class here we come. I'm sure that'll solve all your problems.

3) Congratz. Did you solo your invoker up starting in straight newbie eq? Your rogue? Compare the two?

4)I am working on my spell quests by myself and occasionally asking friends for help. That's why I'm not done and haven't just whined to get them, while I see 90% of them farmed by the same people. Res, inferno, gate, relocate, swarm.....things like when you talk to a cleric about res, and it was just handed to him by a guildmate are just sad. I ask for no help on my eq quests when I find them. There's a big difference between expected spells and eq quests.
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Postby torkur » Tue Aug 27, 2002 4:56 pm

Cherzra, maybe your rescue triggers are better than the ones I've seen/heard people using. I'm quite happy learning something new and you're a much better zoning warrior than I am, so please tell me what yours do differently. Image

Most I've seen on here and in action use either rescue {group} on a switch (spammy), look and rescue so-and-so, or rescue so-and-so when they get hit. I haven't found an efficient way to code the other factors I watch for into a trigger set yet, so I just use my 7 hotkeys and most people I see using triggers don't bother to watch for them at all.

How do you get things like:

1) mid-zone adaptation
2) whether you have a good ranger/rogue who rescues people off mobs
3) factoring in how many hp/noobness of groupmates
4) incoming and who they'll hit based on the PC position, res fx, mob type, etc
5) watching to see who your fellow warrior just failed a rescue on
6)re-rescuing your fails based upon hp level
7) watching the code so you know who gets switched to 75% of the time and changing who's mostly likely
8) anticipation

and what-not into them? I'd love to know to save the typing/buttons as well.
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Postby Sylvos » Tue Aug 27, 2002 5:05 pm

Torkur, I use rescue triggers as Sylvos, and yes it does get me killed from time to time. :P

But I use several methods - look and rescue (any switches), rescue on a hit, or alias rescue anyone on my list (use this when I see somethign walk in)

I custom define my list for every zone, and on no-rescue fights I simply turn off the trigger. Image

-Sylvos "Suicide" Winteraven
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Postby cherzra » Tue Aug 27, 2002 5:49 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by torkur:
<B>1) mid-zone adaptation
2) whether you have a good ranger/rogue who rescues people off mobs
3) factoring in how many hp/noobness of groupmates
4) incoming and who they'll hit based on the PC position, res fx, mob type, etc
5) watching to see who your fellow warrior just failed a rescue on
6)re-rescuing your fails based upon hp level
7) watching the code so you know who gets switched to 75% of the time and changing who's mostly likely
8) anticipation</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1) There's a set of buttons that turn on/off specific things. One turns on/off rescuing when doing a look room, one turns on/off walkin rescuing, one turns off everything.
2) I only autorescue casters and sometimes rogues (depends on zone/situation), warriors are all manual.
3) Several classes get switched to before others and some mobs seem to like specific races to target. When two people are not prioritized despite this, the one with lower hp or level will be rescued first.
4) Incoming is either an autorescue based on walkin (like a switch), or a rescue from a look room so that the mob doesn't have to actually hit anyone yet. It repeats if the mob hasn't targetted anyone yet. Don't have anything special for position or res fx as this almost never happens.
5) Not provided for, the target will have to hope I do a look room, my rescue was later than the other warrior's (i.e. still coming) or eat a hit and be rescued Image
6) Same
7) See 3
8) See 1, depends on situation, sometimes everything goes off.

Really big fights with lots of switches mess most of this up as rescues stack, but I usually turn off stuff halfway and turn it back on when most have been executed. In all the spam the right rescue usually comes up fast, even though the right trigger for the moment is queued behind other rescues.

Hope it helps ya Image A lot of this is on the mud client help section, in various parts. You'll have ta stitch it together yourself Image
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Postby torkur » Tue Aug 27, 2002 5:56 pm

Hehe, I could care less if I die 10x in a zone as a warrior, it's my job and not what I meant by asking about them.

I also didn't mean to imply all rangers don't rescue, some are quite good, but others still think ranger tanking is dumb and don't. You have to factor this in with what load (#mobs) they're tanking and watch them too. It's the same with rogues who backstab to rescue someone from a mob.
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Postby torkur » Tue Aug 27, 2002 5:59 pm

Cool, didn't know you could do some of that in here. Have to take a look and I guess I'm wrong. Image Thanks, Cherzra.
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Postby moritheil » Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:19 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gormal:
<B> How often do groups truly spank now? I dumped all my cr gear long ago as did most people.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

o.O You don't group with me often enough.

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Postby Malacar » Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:39 pm

Actually, just invokers/enchanters wasn't too bad.

I think the issues came in with illusionists and elementalists.

Embody + displace is crazy.

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Postby Shevarash » Tue Aug 27, 2002 7:00 pm

Ever notice how everyone think that it's the OTHER guy's class that's the problem? Image



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</B>
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Postby rachaz » Tue Aug 27, 2002 7:12 pm

I really don't understand posts like this. It is crazy to think that this game would be as fun if there was no room at all for improvement.
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Postby Corth » Tue Aug 27, 2002 8:05 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Shevarash:
<B>Ever notice how everyone think that it's the OTHER guy's class that's the problem? Image
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That might usually be true. I'm well on record however as saying the sorc split was a bad idea ever since the start of soj 2 when i played an enchanter. Invokers are nothing more than monks with area effects. So notice how zones have gravitated towards fights with upwards of 15-20 mobs. And notice how melee classes have become irrelevent in light of this trend. But of course I'm just selfishly complaining about other classes.. though I don't play anymore..


Corth



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Postby Shevarash » Tue Aug 27, 2002 8:53 pm

Just a flip observation Corth. Don't worry, your disapproval is well and duly noted. Image

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Postby thanuk » Fri Aug 30, 2002 10:33 am

I'll take on you pansy trigger rescuers ANY DAY!
When i was a boy, back before the war, we used to type out EVERY rescue. You know how long it took me to type resc lohrandelarien? Not long because i friggin rule! So i came back after a 1 year hiaitus and low and behold, fights with 800 mobs are hard to do manual rescues in. But this is where you are mistaken.. Having to look to see who to rescue does NOT cause a spank, in fact it may save one. Sure you can use a nifty trigger to rescue, but do you know who to rescue FIRST? Its the same order every time with the trigger, maybe all the people on the trigger are tanking but u gotta rescue the 3rd guy right away...what if you fail on him then rescue 3 other people before you attempt to rescue him again? A myriad of problems arise from this. Also i have noticed a LARGE population of warriors who rescue on switch...uhm hello? Ever heard of Tranq and mobs ENTERING the room? sure you cant manual everything any more, but you can manual for the most part. Unless its getting silly and people are dying, i have 1 rescue trigger that rescues everyone in my group once, and i hardly use it. It's function is more for multiple switches, and i see who it rescues so i know to rescue them like 2 more times after it gets thru the spam, cuz mobs tend to switch to the same person in groups. Also with rescue failing alot more lately *GLARE IMMORTALS* you are gonna get stuck in the trigger spam and people are going to die more often while your rescuing someone with almost max hps. You MUST rescue sentiently, grasshopper. I'll take on a warrior with all trigger rescues any day. Maybe they will rescue faster than me when the mob they are fighting switches, but the fact is im still going to get the rescue off before the mob gets a round of combat off, so that is a moot point. Off enemy rescues, mob entry rescues, and mobs that switch without a message or get tranqed and area, ill dominate any trigger happy warriorbot any day and i've been doing it for years. Trigger rescues=dead invokers, manual rescues=dead tanks...after all, thats really the idea isn't it? Kill the tank so the inferno goes through, and pray for full heals.
P.S. For all this spell power, insane defensive skills, etc etc i still seem to die every time a cleric takes an extra 1 round to cast full heal, and almost every time teh chanter fails QC on dragonscales, so maybe we aren't so powerful after all.
Gythka is definately not too powerful either, and as for whichever one of you fools sed that you have to give something up to have a powerful proc like para why dont u learn what ur talking about. Gythka=!critical hits, I.E. your best attacks do 0 damage for a chance, not even a guarenteed, proc. I'd say thats alot more of a sacrifice then the extra 4 seconds it takes to apply poison to a dagger.

In conclusion:
Fleeing warriors suck, die like a man!
Trigger happy rescue warriorbots, I'll take you on any day, rescue sentiently or kill your casters.
O'doyle rules!


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Postby ssar » Fri Aug 30, 2002 12:13 pm

Re: Influx of High-End eq..

I agree that you have a point about there being quite a lot, but I also think that this isnt necessarily that bad a thing.

Personally, I am enjoying the game more than ever before, attaining much better eq than ever before, and joining more of the hardest and new (to me) hunts than ever before.
This is definitely somewhat attributable to much of the new code incl new classes, spells, items, procs, strategies, etc.

I wouldnt like to see any major changes to the overall mechanics, items, stats, damage, etc, except a continuation of 2 things the staff have already been trying to implement more:

1) New big quests which require high level eq items. This without doubt is a fine method of reducing the amount of high end eq.

2) The addition of certain tougher mobs, such as demons, dragons, giants etc, especially those with high magic resistance and special procs.

IMO, this really creates a good fun balance between all the kickass proccing weapons and spells we have in this era, and also gives us a more diverse range of strategies and things to throw at them.

Sure, in some cases things might need to be tweaked slightly, to give the mobs an occasionally better chance to wipe a few more players out - especailly those in a group of high level and well-decked players.

--

Re: rescuing..

As a pretty poor typist, and a bit of a zmud gimp, I find full manual out of the question, as well as complex triggers.

When zoning, I use a set of simple aliases I manually fire as I see fit, and enter the rescue targets' names in prior to each hunt.

I do have some simple auto-rescue triggers for doing simple exp, have then turned off by default, and very rarely turn that on during big hunts/zoning.

Monitoring the flows of the fights and the habits of those in your group, allows you to vary rescue attempts accordingly, to a degree.

Getting a "feel" for what to do when, in various types of fights is a major part of it, and a excellent aspect of the game in general.

--

On with the hunt..



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Postby Sarell » Fri Aug 30, 2002 12:37 pm

Damn straight shev!

I love the new druids, fabulous, special now entangle gets memmed sometimes! :P

But thoses forgers, gee whiz, I tried to roll one to figure out what was with them, but couldnt even get a high enough luck skill! They are zany and wacky and gear is good for them, i think maybe the gods favour them best! ...oky I admit I like S3 a lot...even forgers.. Image

I'll say it's too easy when I romp avernus citadel thing...of course I'll have to convince someone to go there first even thought they might die..and have to get there myself..now that's tricky...

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Postby Lenefir » Fri Aug 30, 2002 1:05 pm

Let me see if I understood this correct: Because many of you long time players of this mud have equipped your characters with (almost) the best stuff from head to toe, and can walk through many of the eq-zones almost like it was a Sunday stroll, and (can) harvest stuff to your hearts' content, you want to make those zones harder, or to downgrade or remove different spells?

If this indeed is correct, may I ask why? I think my brain must still be sleeping...

Image
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Postby Ambar » Fri Aug 30, 2002 1:32 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lenefir:
Let me see if I understood this correct: Because many of you long time players of this mud have equipped your characters with (almost) the best stuff from head to toe, and can walk through many of the eq-zones almost like it was a Sunday stroll, and (can) harvest stuff to your hearts' content, [b]you want to make those zones harder, or to downgrade or remove different spells?

If this indeed is correct, may I ask why? I think my brain must still be sleeping...

Image[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well, Len .. as the equipment gets better .. the zones tend to get easier .. this could also be a combination of better eq AND more experienced groups ... the easy solution would be to nerf eq .. but why not make the fights harder, or more challenging??

also keep in mind the *easier* to us may be just because we have done the zone 85 zillion times and know how to do them .. know all the tricks ....

just ma 2 coppers..

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