bards/battlechanters

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Allycis
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bards/battlechanters

Postby Allycis » Thu Sep 26, 2002 4:48 pm

I'm extremely disappointed with the class. They underwent a huge overhaul yet still i see them as the worst class on the mud.

Half the songs go unused and accompany barely does anything despite needing 2 of the class to use it.

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Postby Rausrh » Thu Sep 26, 2002 5:27 pm

Many classes have skills/spells/abilities that go unused for the most part. How often do you see a warrior kick/headbutt vs bash/shieldpunch? How often do you see casters casting 'mage flage' or 'wizards eye'? How often do Drow use their innate darkness? Snakes their innate tailsweeps?

I don't know much about bards/battlechanters as I have never played one. Could you explain in more detail what specificly you are disappointed with?

Why is it the worst class? I thought that was reserved for rangers Image

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Allycis
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Postby Allycis » Thu Sep 26, 2002 6:07 pm

you get a bunch of rogue skills but you can't use any of them while singing and they all cap at like 30

you get a bunch of spells that you can use a certain number of times per day, but can't cast while you're singing

the only songs that ever seem to get used are healing, sorcery, and defensive harmony

healing is what its always been...50 or so hitpoint heal every 3 rounds..would be cool for dragons or area casters but any spell that stuns you makes you stop singing...like thunderblast and wing buffet

sorcery is ok..supposedly makes your spells be more powerful but its not really noticeable..and then takes 1 * off of casting times

defensive harmony makes denfensive skills go up but doesn't help that much unless you target the song at one person

accompany is pretty weak.. You need 2 bards to use it and one accompanies the other. Accompany gives almost no boost to a song. If i sing song of renewal and i get accompanied by someone 40+ it goes from giving me 7 mana per verse to giving me 8 mana per verse. For defensive harmony the target gets an extra +2 to parry...oh boy! and for a bunch of the other songs it makes no difference at all as far as we can tell. And even if you wanted to you couldn't have 2 different songs going on in a room at the same time. So basically bringing the second bard is pointless and wastes a spot in a group
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Postby yuggok » Thu Sep 26, 2002 6:57 pm

Although I agree that every class has some useless/un-utilized skills, battlechanters seem to be pretty heavy on them. Some ideas on how they could be better I guess:

1. Most of the songs don't have enough variance as you get better in skill other than getting barely noticeable upgrades in effects (ie: extra couple hps on heal song, etc.). For "area songs", I can understand a weaker effects, but if targeted on a single person, maybe songs get effects like:
-- song of protection: stone/globe
-- song of defensive harm: blur

2. Accompany needs major boost. 2 level 40ish bards/battlechanters should be extremely strong. I can liken it only to crossing the streams in Ghostbusters. ;-) It's the only chance in the game where 2 players combine their power in 1 force I guess.

I guess my general thing is this: hardly anyone plays Bchanters on a regular basis b/c there's no real advantage to having them. There's nothing they bring to the table that other classes don't bring (and those classes have much better advantages--think about it: shamans get gheal, which is pretty much same as song of healing, but they also have so many other uses). There has to be something unique that chanters get that other classes don't have.
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Postby Caedym » Fri Sep 27, 2002 4:27 pm

http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000530.html

Read that thread, and the thread I also point to within that thread, and then look at the changes they made.

To sum up:

We asked for one thing,
they gave us another.

As such, I have no comments on the 'new' bard and battlechanter classes. To this day I still refuse to play them for obvious reasons.

Caedym Shadowhock -Some dude working for Oghma

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Postby kiryan » Fri Sep 27, 2002 5:41 pm

defensive song rocks
heal has always rocked
sorcery is unbelievably awesome

bards/bchanters a great class, but have little flash.

the only thing i would like to see is the haste on their offensive song be nearly guaranteed at an earlier level.

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Postby Shevarash » Fri Sep 27, 2002 8:18 pm

We're aware of some of the problems, and the class is still a work in progress. (As all are, frankly.) There will be some updates to the bard class shortly..in the meantime, please try and keep your criticism constructive. Image

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Postby Aldira » Fri Sep 27, 2002 9:35 pm

Some suggestions to spice things up:

More effects! Random effects, not necessarily based on skill or time spent singing the song. An extra wither, an extra bless, little minor things that just kind of happen when you're singing songs, maybe even have these trinket effects stay after you're done singing! That would be neat and not overpowering.

Change around accompany so that when the primary singer stops singing _voluntarily_, the second doesn't try to pick it up.

Um, make song of protection more powerful! Would be neat to see -10 to saves from it at least at high level. And it doesn't help sv_rod at the moment, it should, just to be consistent.

Upgrade song of harming! The only damage song we have, I think it would be neat if this did adequate damage (similar to a druid or shaman of similar level?) so that we aren't such a one trick pony when wearing mage gear.

Song of charming! OMG, I loved song of charming, then it was removed when we were changed Image Yeah, it doesn't really do anything. But it was, like, what bards DID, and it was FUN, which is the important part.

I dunno how to fix this, but skill progression seems horribly slow. Song of healing gains like 3-5 hps every 2-3 skill points? Offensive harmony adds 3% to haste chance per 2 skill points? Mages have to wait 5 levels for a jump in their ability, but boy do they have a huge jump when they get there. Just feels like bard have a long slugging upwards battle that doesn't get them anywhere in the end, since we've had the effects all along.
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Postby Allycis » Sat Sep 28, 2002 6:44 pm

maybe allow for rogue skills and spells to be used while singing? not like the rogue skills or spells are really that strong that it would be super overpowered
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Postby Gurns » Sat Sep 28, 2002 8:43 pm

I've got some opinions on bards, there's a surprise. This rambles a bit, but maybe that's not a surprise, either. Image

First, I want to compliment, again, the gods on the new bard class, as it was and is. They tried to make it more fun, more interesting, more useful, and give bards more things to do. They succeeded! More than that, they excelled! Many players may not remember the previous versions of bards, Soj3 early beta bards and Soj1/Toril/Soj2 bards. I do! Compared to those bards, these are ... words fail me. I wouldn't want to go back, even if it was to the original Soj1 situation: bard heals > 100 hps per verse, no gheal spell. Sure, in those days I could always get a group, and I've said before and will say again, semi-IC, that it's all been downhill since then. But it was BORing.

With the great change to the class, it's not surprising it needs some, maybe a lot, of tweaking. It's so different, it's really a completely new class.

Second, I sympathize with bards' frustrations at getting a group. It's still hard. Why? When song of sorcery makes an underpowered group viable, and a strong group overwhelming? When I can back up an enchanter for hastes or a shaman for group healing? When I can keep the whole group from getting hit as much, even in gatehouse rooms? Couple of reasons: (1) Leaders learned to do every zone without a bard, why look for one now, if you've got a group you know can do it? (2) Even the leaders that take bards along haven't really figured out what to do with them. (3) There is no bard that leads groups, who would regularly show other folks what a bard can do, and how to use them. (4) Bards are a pure support class, and not a necessary one. We're druids when you don't need moonwell, rangers when you've got rogues. From what I see, those folks have problems getting groups, too. (5) Most importantly, I think, bards shine in the largest groups, and are weak in smaller groups, so it's tough to learn what a bard can do. More on this later.

Third, bards have noted, with dismay, that presently, our rogue skills, well, suck. We might as well be warriors, for the hitting we do! And warriors have spankier weapons. Our skills used to be better. And since you don't see a lot of bards in groups, why the downgrade?

When the gods were creating the new bards, they did me the honor of asking my opinion. One thing I told them, which they already knew, was that these new bards would be almost impossible to balance. The problem is, all of our songs are group effect. Group effect spells, room effect spells, are the most powerful things around. Look at the quests some of them involve for mages! Look at how necessary they are for a top-level zone group!

And for a bard, our power increases, not so much with our own skill or level, but with the number of people in a group. If I'm singing "offensive harmony", say I average a 7/3 to hit/dam. Say the hitters are hasted already, which is the wise thing to do since my bard haste is inconsistent. If the group has a couple of hitters and they get 10 hits in a round, I've just added 30 damage a round. If the group has a lot of hitters, and the mob gets hit 40 times a round, I've just added 120 damage. With NO change in my skills or anything I've done.

I use that example because it's easy to see the comparison. In actuality, that's not a song I sing much, because there are better songs for most situations. For any big fight, it's usually the case that song of sorcery is best. Every spell gets cast one round faster. How many spells are cast in a big fight? How many * do the casters see? The fheal, the doom, the inferno, they all get in one round sooner? And more powerfully? Not to mention the faster spellups, the more powerful spellups before a fight.

But if we have great potential power in a group, how do you balance that? Well, the gods have made the individual bard weak. My songs are weak in small groups or solo. My hitting power is the weakest of any hitter. I die easily. My spells are quite limited. And I think, when the gods saw that the original bards were still unbalanced, in certain ways, then rather than mess with the songs, they took back some of the rogue skills.

But it's still a weird balancing act, unlike most other classes. Bards are strong in large groups: if you've got a solid, complete 14 person group, the class that will add the most in that 15th slot is a bard. Bards are weak in small groups: If you've got 3 or 4 folks already, another real hitter, another healer of any kind, an invoker or illusionist or elementalist will all be more useful than a bard.

So with all that, why the downgrade to our rogue skills? I don't know, but I can guess. I'm thinking that bards were getting into groups, as hitters, ahead of rangers. Rogues are hitters with a few extra skills, rangers are hitters with a few extra skills, and you used to be able to see bards as hitters with a few extra skills. Given the power of our songs, the weaker hitters, the bard, is more useful to the group than the stronger hitter but less otherwise useful ranger. That's just a guess. If that wasn't the intent of the downgrade, that's the effect: I'm not getting in groups as a hitter anymore, not even pure xp groups.

Fortunately, our song effects are still strong. Thank you, gods! I, personally, never thought that bards should be hitters. The gods' concept of bards was the stereotypical gypsy. I've never thought of that as a good basis for the class.

But note that this still doesn't solve the problem. And it's really several problems. First, how do you balance the strong bard effects in a large group, versus the mobs and all the other classes and their skills? Second, how do you make bards a viable class in any size group without downgrading them to wimps in a large group?

And the third problem, how do you make bards fun to play, and have more to do? Because as things are now, bards are almost reduced to the old days of "start singing, go afk for a few hours, come back for split". Not quite, but almost.

I have the beginning and the middle of a suggestion. It pretty much ignores the rogue skills. If gods want bards to be gypsies, I think the rogue skills need to get increased. But if they don't get increased, I personally won't much care. (Except when I try soloing and get my ass whupped 'cause I don't have any offense.)

What the gods attempted to do, to balance powerful song effects, was to introduce mana management. But it's not an effective balancing device now, because low level bards don't have any way of renewing their mana (other than grouping with a high level bard temporarily) so they just don't sing. High level bards don't have a problem with mana, either, because high level bards have around 400 mana (or more, dang elves! dang halflings!), and with my skills, if I burn through that much, then I'm not watching what's going on at all.

And the only way to lose mana is by stuttering. An odd notion, for any real musician. We don't stutter or stumble that often. And if we do, it doesn't matter for the energy, the emotional response we arose in our listeners. Not if we're good. See Vladmir Horowitz, for example, who, on stage, would leave out notes, hit wrong notes, but played with such energy, such style, such emotion that he's quite possibly the greatest classical pianist ever. Yes, real world stuff and magical songs don't strictly compare, but it's the only comparison we've got.

So let's balance song effects, not by the rogue skills, but following the original concept, that is, with a need for mana management. That means a greater need for management than now. Forget stuttering. Make songs burn mana naturally. Yes, make it take energy to make magical music. (I dunno about you, I'm usually worn out after a gig.) For convenience, let's say every verse takes off 1 mana. But the way the balance is struck is by counting how many PCs or NPCs are being affected. So every verse takes 1 mana per PC or NPC. If I'm singing healing in a group of 15, I lose 15 mana per verse (whether they're injured or not, they cost me mana). If I'm singing defensive harmony in that group, on the group, also 15 per verse. If I'm singing harming at the room, 1 mana per verse per living NPC.

I suspect that targeted songs probably should take more than 1 mana per verse. So if I target def harmony, and get the effects I do now, it's more like a 2 or 3 mana per verse song, not 1.

I also suspect that to make this work at the 1 mana cost per verse level, bards would need to have more mana, maybe 1000 max, and song of renewal would need to regen mana faster.

So the balance becomes this: In small groups, I can sing useful songs more. I don't burn mana as fast. In large groups, my songs are more useful, because I'm affecting more folks. But I have to sing renewal more often, and sing useful songs less often, because I am at risk of burning through all my mana.

That's a beginning of a suggestion. Bards would be less useful now than they are in large groups (my opinion, from a whole mud perspective, is that they are currently overpowered in large groups; too bad leaders aren't taking advantage of the high-level bards out there). But bards become relatively more useful in smaller groups.

The middle of the suggestion is, give bards more useful things to do. More things where they actually have to decide what to do. How? My suggestion: Give them more spells. And to balance it, make the spells use mana.

Yes, a return to the past! But it will fit very nicely in with bards, bards who use mana for magical effects. We have songs, which use mana continually. We have spells (which one could even conceive of as very short songs), which burn some chunk of mana instantaneously. So give bards more useful spells. Then we have to decide whether to burn mana casting or singing, decide whether we should cast/sing now and renew later or vice versa. That's a more complex class, with more to do.

One could even still incorporate stuttering, although I'd think it would need to happen much less often, under this type of bard. Effectively never, at high levels: casters get !fail spells, we should get almost !fail singing. And less stuttering than now at low levels, because we're going to be burning mana, just singing at all.

To make it work, I'd also strongly suggest making song of renewal one of the earliest songs learned. If everything's mana-based, until we learn that, we're not really a bard. If everything's mana-based, then IC that's naturally a song we would learn early, probably our first song. If we couldn't learn it, we could never be a bard.

Now, what spells are consistent with being a bard? I've suggested before, others have suggested, we need some sort of charm. It used to be a song, I'd suggest the spell. I personally think we should get it early. It should practically be an innate bard skill. I also think that bards should have it more strongly, more effectively than any other class. If we're based on stereotypical gypsies, we should be able to con (I mean, swindle, not the mud "con") the most suspicious of folks. If we're minstrels, we should be able to charm the lord in his castle (and his lady *nudge nudge wink wink*). We should be able to charm animals. Though I'd imagine we shouldn't be able to charm undead, nor golems or automatons.

Most spells, under my scenario, are one shot uses of mana. If we still get minor creation, then it costs maybe 30 mana (10 + (10*circle number)) to cast the spell. If you follow that calculation, then that makes 10th circle spells expensive! A way of balancing things. That might be a bit high, it doesn't take a caster nearly that long to mem a 10th circle spell as it would take us to regen the mana to cast it. But you get the idea.

But charm is a continuing spell, the charmie follows me. So that spell, like a song, should burn mana continuously. What I imagine is that it's some amount of mana per mob level per mud hour, counted up over all charmies. And that this is balanced with song of renewal. So if we happen to have charmed one lvl 50 mob (yes, I think we should have a chance of being able to do that, though I suspect it would be unbalancing, alas), we have to keep singing song of renewal to keep our mana constant. If we've charmed 50 lvl 1 mobs, same thing. If I've got three level 20 mobs, I have to sing renewal sometimes, to keep my mana up. But I can sing other songs, for a while, or cast other spells. Then I have to quickly sing renewal, because if my mana drops to 0, the mobs are no longer charmed.

Other spells? Probably we should get some of the offensive spells. Since we can't sing and cast at the same time (which is as it should be IMNSHO), then that gives us choices in battle. Singing and help the group that way, or be offensive with casting plus hitting between the spells. In a large group, we'd be singing, I imagine. In a smaller group, or in unusual circumstances, perhaps we should be casting. That would be new, that would make us choose.

For an even more complicated class, then you can combine casting and singing. The idea is that a song generates certain effects, but a spell is necessary to get high level song effects. Probably a spell cast on the bard, and for want a better name, let's call this the virtuoso spell. So maybe 'song of sorcery' boosts the speed of casting every spell. But I cast virtuoso on me before I start singing it, and that's what gives the bonus to the spell effects. Song of offensive harmony boosts hit/dam, but with virtuoso on me, that's what gives the haste. Song of protection gives AC and saves, but with virtuoso cast on me, it stones the group.

Virtuoso would take a chunk of mana to cast. And also, because it's interacting with the songs, it means the songs take more mana to sing. So yeah, I can get some hugely powerful song effects. But they are limited because I'd be burning through mana at a great rate, especially in a large group. Most of the time, I couldn't afford the mana to be singing with these virtuoso effects. Probably need a "dispel virtuoso" spell, too. ("Dispel magic" is too annoyingly broad.)

What else? Well, to make it more likely that one would get more than one bard in a group (something that almost never happens now, because no good reason for it), let a bard cast virtuoso either on himself or on another bard. Or, make accompany give these high level effects, without the casting of virtuoso. Or make accompany slow down the rate of mana burning. (And by the way, if someone is accompanying me, they should be burning mana, too. Maybe not as fast as me, but some. Right now, they don't burn any mana.)

Hmm, what else? Well, other bard skills should take mana, too. Lore is the only one I can think of, off hand. Rather than limiting it to 3 tries a day, just make it burn 50 or 100 mana to lore an item. Sure, I'll ID lots of things if I've got nothing else to do. But I won't be ID-ing stuff if I'm zoning or xp-ing.

So, that's one set of ideas. And,thinking about it, as I write it out, I can see my premise. Which is: Bards are not too strong. Indeed, despite the strength of song of sorcery, we are too weak. We are too weak until we get song of sorcery, and, after we get sorcery, we are too weak in terms of choices of what to do. To balance this "almost impossible to balance" class with the rest of the mud, then, means giving bards, not less to do, but more. Not weaker skills, but even some stronger skills. But also to make these skills more costly to use. Costly in terms of the time spent recovering from their use, time being the only true coin of Soj3. And to make us have to decide, more frequently, what we should be doing at any time.

Which brings me to my final point, which I've made before. I hate the 12 second lag that goes with switching songs (6 seconds to start singing the new song, 6 seconds before the first verse hits). It makes me less useful in zones. If I'm singing until the mob is dead, and the leader then says "mem", by the time I've switched from whatever to renewal, most of the folks I zone with are already memmed, or close to it. If I'm singing renewal and the leader calls for spellup, the spellup is well along before I've switched to sorcery. Can I anticipate somewhat, do I anticipate somewhat? Yes, I do. But I'm not always right, and even when I am, I'm usually too early and so not using my songs effeciently. (Should the leader be telling me "I'm going to call for spellup in 15 seconds". Well, maybe, but leaders have too much to do already.)

Much worse is in battle. The most common switch is from something to healing. It takes me about 4 rounds to switch. 4 rounds, to get off a "group cure serious"?

There used to be twink potential in an instantaneous song. Sleeping or charming or forgetting an aggro mob. I don't see twink potential in the songs we have, so I don't see why they couldn't have instantaneous effects. Though oddly enough, I don't like completely instant effects because of RP purposes, I think it takes a little time for the music to start and stir your soul. But in RL, I can switch dance tunes in an instant, and folks will respond in less than 12 seconds. If I'm good.

So I think we should be able to switch almost instantly. Maybe a 1 or 2 second lag before we can sing the next song, a 1 or 2 second lag before the first verse hits. With no penalty. But if the gods think there should be some penalty for a fast switch, then consistent with all of the above, pay it in mana. Let me switch almost instantly, let me hit the first verse 1 or 2 seconds after the "sing". But keep track of the time from "sing" stopping the previous song to "sing" starting the new song, and make it cost, oh, 80 mana if it's under 2 seconds, 70 mana if it's 2-3 seconds, 60 mana for 4 seconds, etc. to 0 mana if it's greater than 10 seconds. If I'm too low on mana, then I won't be able to switch fast, not even to song of renewal.

There's my thoughts. Note that I don't see all this as a significant overhaul of the current bard class. A significant tweak, but still a tweak. It takes the current concept of the class - mana-based musicians - and just pushes it further.

Thanks for listening! And of course, I'm always happy to talk to anyone, god or mortal, about bards, and about my opinions! Image

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Postby Snurgt » Sun Sep 29, 2002 2:56 am

Awesome ideas Gurnsssss!

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Postby yuggok » Wed Oct 02, 2002 3:26 am

Wise input Gurns. *pet*
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Postby Guest » Fri Oct 04, 2002 5:24 am

Gurns:

I like some of the ideas, and not surprisingly I'm not a big fan of some others. Things that I'll be looking into:

1. Switching songs. You may be correct. I'd be dubious about making it instantaneous, but perhaps reducing it by half wouldn't be bad. I'll look into it, see if I see any problems.

2. Mana cost. I agree that currently it's much more of a burden on lower level bards. I'm going to look into a more advanced way to do it (though never going to a situation where you burn it on every verse - more likely to make the more difficult songs burn more mana). I've already tweaked the mana renewal song, and I'm thinking that reducing the mana cost of the lower level songs (or perhaps tying it into the quality being generated for the song) would be in order.

3. I'll take a hard look at the rogue skills. The reason they're as low as they are is that I wanted to make sure bards didn't steal the secondary roles of the rogue. Now that they've been played for awhile, it's quite obvious that they very rarely ever even use their rogue skills, much less steal a role away.

Incidentally, the bard heal is significantly more than a group cure serious, or even a group cure critical. What I was trying to avoid with the amount was again, completely usurping the role of another class, at least that class's greatest ability.

Try to keep in mind, this bard project was basically created out of whole cloth. I didn't so much re-write it as I did write a new class. Some of the ideas were the same, but the implementation, fortunately, has left me with tremendous flexibility.

I do think, honestly, that one of the reasons you don't see that many bards is simply because Soj3 was already up for over a year when the new version came in. People aren't familiar with them, and won't just bring them along cause they heard they're cute.

Bards are going to have to, in some sense, educate others on what their capabilities are.

Another thing of note: bards are far, far more skill driven than most classes. The core engine for the songs relies tremendously on skills, and takes level into account much less so. This means that pleveling a bard, without developing the skills to the appropriate level, will not give you a true sense of their capabilities.
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Postby Jorus » Fri Oct 04, 2002 10:37 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gurns:
<B>
Second, I sympathize with bards' frustrations at getting a group. It's still hard. Why? When song of sorcery makes an underpowered group viable, and a strong group overwhelming? When I can back up an enchanter for hastes or a shaman for group healing? When I can keep the whole group from getting hit as much, even in gatehouse rooms? Couple of reasons: (1) Leaders learned to do every zone without a bard, why look for one now, if you've got a group you know can do it? (2) Even the leaders that take bards along haven't really figured out what to do with them. (3) There is no bard that leads groups, who would regularly show other folks what a bard can do, and how to use them. (4) Bards are a pure support class, and not a necessary one. We're druids when you don't need moonwell, rangers when you've got rogues. From what I see, those folks have problems getting groups, too. (5) Most importantly, I think, bards shine in the largest groups, and are weak in smaller groups, so it's tough to learn what a bard can do. More on this later.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm with Gurns here. I disagree with the original poster's assesment of bards. They are not "the worst" class for a zoning group. They may be the least needed, as you only ever really need one, but with only one or two high-level bards around, I don't see that as a problem.

It is well worth taking a bard over a second rogue or second ranger. You can globe and haste them and they hit just fine, but at the same time they can provide some immense boosts to the rest of the group.

The _only_ times I'd consider not taking a bard are a) there's no bard on or b) I _really_ need to maximize my hitter damage and needed like 3 rangers and 4 rogues (but even then, a bard would probably, via songs, give more damage to the other hitters than another hitter :P).

I am still a bit challenged to remember to look for bards. I find if I stop looking for specific classes and just "who sort good" I find Gurns from time-to-time.

The new bards are pretty intensely great. At higher levels, bard heal is something on the order of 60hps per verse (with the latest upgrade) and the effect from the other songs is pretty immense as well. I've seen bard healing turn around the paracs fight in ribcage (the old asmodeus, re-ansified for any oldtimers) as it is a fair bit more constant than group-heal.

And I wouldn't say it's particularly boring, either. With 2-3 _good_ songs, you have to decide what to sing. I'd yield to Gurns on this point if he disagrees, though.

IMO, however, the versatility is stunning. Need more hitter damage? No problem, bard sings offensive harmony. Need more tanking power overall? No problem, bard sings defensive harmony on the group. Need more tanking power on one powerhouse tank? No problem, targetted defensive harmony. Suffering from area damage? No problem, healing song. Have an overall hard fight (or need to soup up the invokers)? No problem, song of sorcery will speed every spell up, and make speciality spells much more effective (think zero-star super-dragonscales and drool). Sing song of sorcery for spellups, then switch to something else for the fight if you're bored! And that's just what I see in use in zones with any reliability (I don't claim to know all the tricks a bard can do :P).

And that's just their songs...

As to Caedym's gripes? They seems to be centered about bards not being made the class that can use all equipment (though they can use mage/rogue eq, or cleric/rogue eq for battlechanters -- which is close) and tell what zone equipment comes from, from a cursory reading of the threads he referenced.

To that, all I have to say is: Look at the feedback we're getting from the people who are currently _playing_ the class at a high level (eg, Gurns). Your experience with how the class used to be years ago is no longer even remotely applicable, as Iyachtu's revamp was _very_ drastic. Not only that, but the class is now getting tweaked about as often as any other class.

I say play the class as it is now, and produce some feedback, or just let it drop. Obviously the bards sojourn has will never be the bards you wanted, but perhaps if you tried what is available now you might find them enjoyable.

Regards,
Jorus
Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Oct 04, 2002 10:45 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Caedym:
<B>http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000530.html

Read that thread, and the thread I also point to within that thread, and then look at the changes they made.

To sum up:

We asked for one thing,
they gave us another.

As such, I have no comments on the 'new' bard and battlechanter classes. To this day I still refuse to play them for obvious reasons.

Caedym Shadowhock -Some dude working for Oghma

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here, I'll pull a post of yours from the thread you referenced:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
Hopefully some of you will recognize my name from posting on here previously, but if you do know not, know that I am synonymous with bard class commentary, and that I am usually quite longwinded with my posts. Not this time. This time no positive proposals or new creative ideas. Perhaps you have also noticed my lack of posting as of late on the BBS? This is due to my faith in the MUD wearing down months ago, and after what I learned recently, it shattering. I seriously don’t believe I’ll ever be playing a bard, or Sojourn, again. Therefor, as a former hardcore RP/Bard player, I’d just like to point a few things out by allowing each of you to ask yourselves a few questions.
One, How many immortals do you see posting on this thread after 12 posts?

Two, How many immortals of significant influence do you see displaying any serious interest, currently or previously, in this class publicly? For example, try looking in to the other bard threads that were started about 4 months ago, back in January. You’ll see little to no real interest by the staff in joining in on a give and take conversation. That can be a message in itself.

Three, Guess what Exp table bards have? If you think it is Rogues, you’re horribly wrong. Try enchanters.

Four, How often do you see any of the former fulltime bards on the mud now?

Five, How many of the ideas in previous Bard threads have we seen gone in thus far, or even just promised to us that they would go in?

Six, How many Battle chanters do you see playing? For that matter, how many Orcs? How difficult do you think it is to play as a race no one plays, in a hometown no one is in, and as a class that can’t solo?

Enough said.

Someone might read this and think I am flaming them. Unfortunately, in order for me to do that, I would have to care, and I no longer do. *shrug* If you still feel I am flaming you, I apologize, for that is not my intent or my wish here today. I further reiterate that in order for some one to flame you, they would have to be emotionally attached to the subject matter. I have not been for quite some time. There would have to be significant measures taken to rectify that matter, for better or worse.

My two Zhents,

Caedym Shadowhock
(caedym@aol.com)
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It would appear, from your tone in May of 2001, you simply didn't care (your own words, really). I'm sorry the new bard class isn't what you wanted it to be, but I had a tremendous amount of input from some old-time bards in designing it.

If you wanted a solo class, then there's not much that could have been done for ya. If you're locked into the ability to wear any piece of eq, I'm sorry but that was unfair back then, and it would be unfair now. Bards have a significantly larger selection of gear than virtually anyone else.

It's quite possible to have alot of fun playing bards now, and they're absolutely useful in a group. If a particular group leader doesn't believe they are, it's most likely because it's a totally new paradigm. Bards hadn't been particularly useful for EVER. It will take people some time to adjust to anything other than that.

Oh, and read the thread you linked to. I think I implemented about 70% of the stuff listed there (not including the partial implementation of eq restricts). Of particular note is that you were mostly concentrating on the ability to sing while in combat, which they can now.


[This message has been edited by Iyachtu (edited 10-04-2002).]
Gurns
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Postby Gurns » Fri Oct 04, 2002 6:35 pm

Thanks for comments, Iyatchu! Thanks for the bard advertisement, Jorus! Image

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Iyachtu:
Try to keep in mind, this bard project was basically created out of whole cloth. I didn't so much re-write it as I did write a new class.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yup, me 'n Jorus said that too! Image

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">People aren't familiar with them, and won't just bring them along cause they heard they're cute.</font>

Yup, generally true. My deepest thanks to everyone who, before the changes went in, brought me along just because I was cute. Image

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Switching songs. You may be correct. I'd be dubious about making it instantaneous, but perhaps reducing it by half wouldn't be bad.</font>

My pet peeve, as you well know! Image Though I, too, would be completely dubious about switching instantaneously, even almost instantaneoulsy, without any penalty. That's like letting a caster get a spell without praying. Basically all my suggestions about mana, above, are to give some real penalty to things that I think should be do-able by a bard, but would give them an unfair advantage over casters if there was no penalty.

Reflecting on it, I think I'm mostly annoyed by the "not being able to start singing", and not by the actual time before the first verse. So if I can start singing immediately, but the first verse doesn't show up for 12-13 seconds after that, the time length would be the same as it is now (essentially the same length of time as between any two verses), but I wouldn't be talking back to the computer when it tells me "You are not composed enough to sing." I'm weird? _I_ don't think so. Image
Burpie
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Postby Burpie » Sat Oct 05, 2002 3:33 am

I'm ALL for a spell that's similar to 'prism spray' where the song is utter chaos! Maybe give the bard semi-control to be helpful towards the party, getting random benefits, or harmful, where maybe blind or feeblemind, etc..you know - Your Barry Manalo song like nearly sucks the brains from the Arch-mage Image

Another thing I agree with is they cannot DOUBLE backstab. That'd rob rogues *irony on words Image*

Put the cap to 45 or 50 at least since sneak/hide _and_ casting invisible is kinda redundant.

I played one to level 21 and the exp was mind numbing. It seemed as bad as a true mage, yet a _true_ mage of any class is more welcome in a group than is a bard. I thought overall the class was fun! I just got discouraged with the exp table. So many people said it's 'same as a rogue' haha...boy were they wrong.

Regardless, they're a fun class Image

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When a mob comes along, you must kill it! Kill it good!
Guest

Postby Guest » Sat Oct 05, 2002 5:11 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Aldira:
<B>Some suggestions to spice things up:

More effects! Random effects, not necessarily based on skill or time spent singing the song. An extra wither, an extra bless, little minor things that just kind of happen when you're singing songs, maybe even have these trinket effects stay after you're done singing! That would be neat and not overpowering.

Change around accompany so that when the primary singer stops singing _voluntarily_, the second doesn't try to pick it up.

Um, make song of protection more powerful! Would be neat to see -10 to saves from it at least at high level. And it doesn't help sv_rod at the moment, it should, just to be consistent.

Upgrade song of harming! The only damage song we have, I think it would be neat if this did adequate damage (similar to a druid or shaman of similar level?) so that we aren't such a one trick pony when wearing mage gear.

Song of charming! OMG, I loved song of charming, then it was removed when we were changed Image Yeah, it doesn't really do anything. But it was, like, what bards DID, and it was FUN, which is the important part.

I dunno how to fix this, but skill progression seems horribly slow. Song of healing gains like 3-5 hps every 2-3 skill points? Offensive harmony adds 3% to haste chance per 2 skill points? Mages have to wait 5 levels for a jump in their ability, but boy do they have a huge jump when they get there. Just feels like bard have a long slugging upwards battle that doesn't get them anywhere in the end, since we've had the effects all along.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Almost missed the post... heh.

Many of the songs did get a recent upgrade. Protection and Harming are on that list, and Protection got one of the biggest upgrades (no, not 10 to saves).

Anyone else wish that the primary bard stopping singing voluntarily would stop the 2nd one too? It's easy enough to do.

I'll make a separate thread for new song ideas... it's prolly about time.
kiryan
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Postby kiryan » Sat Oct 05, 2002 9:18 am

i keyed in on the point that bards add the most to a large group the least to a small group since most of thier skills are group oriented. Nothing they do affects their strength.

we could:

1. add some single target skills that are useful or powerful or take a look at the effectiveness of single target singing.

2. revamp mana cost or song effects to take into account the number of people the song affected more. bard heal in a 4 man group heals 100 per verse but in a 15 man group only heals 50 ..or.. heals 60 in any sized group but costs 4 mana per verse for a 4 man group and 15 mana per verse for a 15 man group.

3. leave them roughly as is... an easy class to play, a weak class in a small group, and an extremely powerful class in a large group.

not every class needs to complex, create choices for those that maybe do not have the same aptitude for playing. if you suck at typing, thinking quick, maybe bard would be a good class for you. I would like to see more choices for classes that you can play well without being a good player and very focused. there are some mudders out there that will simply never be great at the the easiest classes, a unintense class like bard could provide a great niche for them or we could make them as complex as a enchanter/invoker/ele ect...

however, i do think that they could gain an expanded role in small groups...

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where ara you my rittle raabuuri
Allycis
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Postby Allycis » Tue Oct 08, 2002 7:19 pm

new complaint with accompany...i can't judge the increase in strength really cuz there aren't many other battlechanters to use it with near my level. But i just practiced it for 4 and a half hours and it didn't go up once. The skill is at 78 so i doubt that is the max. It's pretty tough to get the skill up already because you need 2 people. Maybe it could be made a little easier, and possibly have a chance for both bards to have the skill go up instead of just the backup?
Zoldren
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Postby Zoldren » Tue Oct 08, 2002 10:09 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rausrh:
<B>Many classes have skills/spells/abilities that go unused for the most part. How often do you see a warrior kick/headbutt vs bash/shieldpunch? How often do you see casters casting 'mage flage' or 'wizards eye'? How often do Drow use their innate darkness? Snakes their innate tailsweeps?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

warriors kick/headbutt depends on how many wars in group Image

mageflame very often
innate darkness often, though not as often now it has umm some drawbacks Image
tailsweep, almost everyfight, yes even vs giants Image oh wait last part is just me

but yes every class has some non-usefullnes Image

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MoM-D
Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Oct 08, 2002 11:16 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Allycis:
new complaint with accompany...i can't judge the increase in strength really cuz there aren't many other battlechanters to use it with near my level. But i just practiced it for 4 and a half hours and it didn't go up once. The skill is at 78 so i doubt that is the max. It's pretty tough to get the skill up already because you need 2 people. Maybe it could be made a little easier, and possibly have a chance for both bards to have the skill go up instead of just the backup?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dunno the name of your bard/bchanter so couldn't check your level. What level are ya?
Allycis
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Postby Allycis » Thu Oct 10, 2002 1:19 am

Dartok - 48 battlechanter

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