Thank you for resetting my hometown. I really am grateful for that.
I also feel bad about more than likely living up to your expectations by being upset about the change to pet healing.
I'll go over the points.
1) I can cast heal undead on my pets. This means that it is not being undead that inherently removes the ability to be healed by others.
2) My pets can cast heal undead on each other. This means that being a wraithform undead does not inherently remove the ability to heal others.
3) I can cast heal undead on myself. This means that heal undead does indeed work on liches, and PCs in general, as long as they meet the undead criteria.
These first three points mean that, logically following, a lich being healed by his pets is solely a balance issue designed to bring the class towards equilibrium.
4) I discussed this specific issue (being healed by pets) with the coder that went through the lich code and redid the class into what it is now. He did not seem to think it was a bug in any way, and more than likely took it into consideration when determining the new powers of the class as far as balance was concerned.
5) I've been doing this since day one. I've always thought of it as being somewhere in the top 3 reasons to become a lich. Since I can still life drain and cast the spell on myself, healing is still up there. It just takes longer.
6) Pet healing is not really something you can do in combat. Let me explain that.
Pet AI, as it stands now, is coded to assist the player when he engages in combat, no matter what the player orders the pet to do. The pet, as a spellcasting undead engaged in combat, will then immediately cast globe on itself, then start casting offensive spells. Ordering it to do anything else during this time will either result in a 3-4 round delayed response due to casting some other spell, or a failure to do so completely. This is also the case when the pet is engaged due to an area spell. Pets also fail their quick chant 75% of the time, making this doubly unreliable.
Since the only two times a lich would require healing in combat are when he is physically engaged by the mob or taking area damage, the only time healing is required is when the pets are also engaged, and therefore extremely unreliable. During these situations, even when pets were able to heal their master, it has been very rare for me to do so, simply because of the hassle, the opportunity cost, and the availability of other means of healing (life drain, a cleric, a shaman). I would much rather have them dealing damage.
98% of the time my pet is casting heal on me is when I'm out of any danger whatsoever and memming my spells up. This is not an exagerration in any fashion. If something is tracking me, I don't sit and wait for my pets to finish casting a 5 * spell, nor do I order them to cast it in the first place, as I'd need to run quickly and that would leave them behind. Not leaving a pet behind because it was casting is a big part of knowing how to handle your pets effectively. Getting them to flee from combat is about twice as difficult as getting them to heal in combat, so I don't take them into fights that take multiple runs.
Also, in any fights where there's lots of area damage, I'd much rather they heal themselves than me. I consider them part of the group, and them dying decreases our ability to function. Since shaman and clerics are very good at their jobs, the only time I'm in actual need of their healing is when doing a time-oriented solo job. This can be basically narrowed down to mean soloing a cleric mob that doesn't track and has high saves (blackmantle is a good option otherwise).
In conclusion: Everyone knows it's a very powerful ability. I had thought it was taken into account when the changes to the class were made, as I was told specifically by the coder that he went through the heal undead code, noted that it did "extra" things for pets instead of PCs, and left it at that. It's not as useful as you'd think, however, and is mostly just a time saving device. I think I've provided as much information as I can on the topic, and would respectfully ask that the decision be reconsidered. Thanks for reading.
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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
Heal Undead
Originaly posted by Todrael:
I meant it when I said it, and I still mean it now that the change is live. Hide was the only godly skill I know of, capable of so many game breaking abilities it was crazy. It's one of the primary the reasons blocking code was added, the reason locks and doors and keys and procs are added to make zones harder, the reason areas are !tele so people can't fold in.. so many things have been added to try to stop hide from being too powerful, when all they had to do was go to the source: the skill itself. Which they now have, and even in a form that does not negate its usefulness. Still very useful in many situations; useful enough to warrant leaving in blocking code, for example.
I was too lazy to look for the number of others...
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Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'
I meant it when I said it, and I still mean it now that the change is live. Hide was the only godly skill I know of, capable of so many game breaking abilities it was crazy. It's one of the primary the reasons blocking code was added, the reason locks and doors and keys and procs are added to make zones harder, the reason areas are !tele so people can't fold in.. so many things have been added to try to stop hide from being too powerful, when all they had to do was go to the source: the skill itself. Which they now have, and even in a form that does not negate its usefulness. Still very useful in many situations; useful enough to warrant leaving in blocking code, for example.
I was too lazy to look for the number of others...
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Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
<B>This coming from the man that cries for downgrades for every other class...
Kifle breaks out her violin.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thank you for providing an intelligent, constructive opinion on the matter, Kifle.
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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
<B>This coming from the man that cries for downgrades for every other class...
Kifle breaks out her violin.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thank you for providing an intelligent, constructive opinion on the matter, Kifle.
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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
Just call if you need me again.
But as far as the topic, I would say that it isnt much of a loss if its only use is what you claim it to be. A lich gets nice nukes, has a spell that can sustain him and his compainions past normal threshold of death, and can heal himself. Thats pretty darn neat and powerful. You can make pets and heal them also, something conj's used to be able to do, and as far as i know (which could be wrong) they can not anymore.
So, its cool to be able to heal your pets, but a bit on the cheezy side that your pets can heal you really. Its not much of a loss, you still have a lot of power so...
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Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'
[This message has been edited by Kifle (edited 09-30-2002).]
But as far as the topic, I would say that it isnt much of a loss if its only use is what you claim it to be. A lich gets nice nukes, has a spell that can sustain him and his compainions past normal threshold of death, and can heal himself. Thats pretty darn neat and powerful. You can make pets and heal them also, something conj's used to be able to do, and as far as i know (which could be wrong) they can not anymore.
So, its cool to be able to heal your pets, but a bit on the cheezy side that your pets can heal you really. Its not much of a loss, you still have a lot of power so...
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Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'
[This message has been edited by Kifle (edited 09-30-2002).]
Tod
Let me clear up a couple of misconceptions you may be suffering under.
When a god posts something like:
'- Lich pets can no longer heal undead their master - this was a bug.'
Weather it is or isnt a bug doesn't really enter their thinking. Its a catch all phrase
they use to allow them to make any change they don't want to or can't justify using logic.
Second
When you get something on the mud you also lose something. Its like one of those rules of thermodynamics.
In this case you got hometown you should have had, so you lost pet healing.
I believe these rules are genetically imprinted into gods dna after thay become gods.
Its not that liches were singled out, its just the rules of mud science being finally applied to liches.
If you have any other questions on mud metaphysics feel free to drop me a line.
Nula/ezza
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Let me clear up a couple of misconceptions you may be suffering under.
When a god posts something like:
'- Lich pets can no longer heal undead their master - this was a bug.'
Weather it is or isnt a bug doesn't really enter their thinking. Its a catch all phrase
they use to allow them to make any change they don't want to or can't justify using logic.
Second
When you get something on the mud you also lose something. Its like one of those rules of thermodynamics.
In this case you got hometown you should have had, so you lost pet healing.
I believe these rules are genetically imprinted into gods dna after thay become gods.
Its not that liches were singled out, its just the rules of mud science being finally applied to liches.
If you have any other questions on mud metaphysics feel free to drop me a line.
Nula/ezza
------------------
The theory of conservation of power does not apply to mud abilities. What goes down doesn't necessarily have an up to it, and vice versa.
That being said, I'd have to agree with todrael that having your pets heal a PC isn't all that special. If your pets have the time to heal you, then you are most likely out of combat already in which case all this does is reduce your downtime in which you have to heal yourself with your own spells. It's sort of like having your pets make food for you, or cast haste for you, or cast the other multitude of spells available to a necro. It's a time saver, but it's not going to be life saving. I suppose it's as much a loss as if the game removed time stop, or grp. Would you be able to survive without it? Yes, would it be less fun, yes.
(please note I only play a necro and only up to L28 right now, so I'm making some assumptions on the workings of lich/pets, if any of this is wrong, feel free to contradict me)
Reasons not to cast heal undead in combat on yourself.
1 - casting time is too long.
2 - casting time on necro offensives are generally shorter (only have experience up to L6 offensives currently)
3 - generally can fit 2 necro offensives in the time it takes to cast one heal.
4 - that 50 hp heal (that i do on pets, so i'm assuming similar numbers on pc) wouldn't save me in combat,however the 150-300 dmg my pet(s) could do in that one round could save the fight.
5 - only useful if cast on pets during combat, and that's only because they have low hps. But can tank better than a pc necro/lich as wraith form, or as a solid (ghast) sometimes they just take one crit too many for their vamps to recover from (or they're sitting on their ass too much!)
That being said, I'd have to agree with todrael that having your pets heal a PC isn't all that special. If your pets have the time to heal you, then you are most likely out of combat already in which case all this does is reduce your downtime in which you have to heal yourself with your own spells. It's sort of like having your pets make food for you, or cast haste for you, or cast the other multitude of spells available to a necro. It's a time saver, but it's not going to be life saving. I suppose it's as much a loss as if the game removed time stop, or grp. Would you be able to survive without it? Yes, would it be less fun, yes.
(please note I only play a necro and only up to L28 right now, so I'm making some assumptions on the workings of lich/pets, if any of this is wrong, feel free to contradict me)
Reasons not to cast heal undead in combat on yourself.
1 - casting time is too long.
2 - casting time on necro offensives are generally shorter (only have experience up to L6 offensives currently)
3 - generally can fit 2 necro offensives in the time it takes to cast one heal.
4 - that 50 hp heal (that i do on pets, so i'm assuming similar numbers on pc) wouldn't save me in combat,however the 150-300 dmg my pet(s) could do in that one round could save the fight.
5 - only useful if cast on pets during combat, and that's only because they have low hps. But can tank better than a pc necro/lich as wraith form, or as a solid (ghast) sometimes they just take one crit too many for their vamps to recover from (or they're sitting on their ass too much!)
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
<B>But as far as the topic, I would say that it isnt much of a loss if its only use is what you claim it to be. A lich gets nice nukes, has a spell that can sustain him and his compainions past normal threshold of death, and can heal himself. Thats pretty darn neat and powerful. You can make pets and heal them also, something conj's used to be able to do, and as far as i know (which could be wrong) they can not anymore.
So, its cool to be able to heal your pets, but a bit on the cheezy side that your pets can heal you really. Its not much of a loss, you still have a lot of power so..</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would generally agree with that. I can see why the change was made. I could have provided a similar list of reasons why the change should stay in, if my opinions and self-interest were so inclined. The gods already have that list, it's why the change went in, so I provided them with the other side of the story.
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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
<B>But as far as the topic, I would say that it isnt much of a loss if its only use is what you claim it to be. A lich gets nice nukes, has a spell that can sustain him and his compainions past normal threshold of death, and can heal himself. Thats pretty darn neat and powerful. You can make pets and heal them also, something conj's used to be able to do, and as far as i know (which could be wrong) they can not anymore.
So, its cool to be able to heal your pets, but a bit on the cheezy side that your pets can heal you really. Its not much of a loss, you still have a lot of power so..</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would generally agree with that. I can see why the change was made. I could have provided a similar list of reasons why the change should stay in, if my opinions and self-interest were so inclined. The gods already have that list, it's why the change went in, so I provided them with the other side of the story.
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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
Rangers should get a self-only version of full heal that's only castable while not engaged in combat. We already get cure critic, and the only time we're casting that is when there is no immediate source of danger. The healing is already there, self-full heal would just speed it up.
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- Ragorn
You group-say 'What's up, bro?'
Touk group-says 'Accounting homework and skill practice.'
You group-say 'Ewww... which is worse?'
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- Ragorn
You group-say 'What's up, bro?'
Touk group-says 'Accounting homework and skill practice.'
You group-say 'Ewww... which is worse?'
I was boggling over the whole 'bug' of pets casting heal undead on their master. Remember when the bug in mob defensive skills were fixed? I'm guessing that was probably not a bug either. If the admins wanted to change heal undead for balance purposes, why not state that instead of saying it was a bug when all logic points to the fact that the spell 'heal undead' should heal undead. It'd be like full heal not working on fire elementals, or stone skin not working on tanks with over 1000 hps.
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-Yayaril
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-Yayaril
Ahem. I do not appreciate being called a liar.
I have always endeavoured to be as honest and open as possible concerning code changes, and your comments are offensive, Thrand.
I am quite qualified to say that the heal undead thing was a bug, as I modified that spell to work on Liches back around their introduction in Toril. It was not working as I intended, thus it was a 'bug' and I allowed it to be fixed.
I talked to Todrael privately (he was the only Lich on at the time) and told him as much, and I may very well change it back given sufficient evidence that it was not, indeed, unbalanced.
Anyways, thanks for the feedback Todrael and Rivi - I'll take it into consideration.
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<B>Shevarash -- Code Forger of Sojourn3
</B>
I have always endeavoured to be as honest and open as possible concerning code changes, and your comments are offensive, Thrand.
I am quite qualified to say that the heal undead thing was a bug, as I modified that spell to work on Liches back around their introduction in Toril. It was not working as I intended, thus it was a 'bug' and I allowed it to be fixed.
I talked to Todrael privately (he was the only Lich on at the time) and told him as much, and I may very well change it back given sufficient evidence that it was not, indeed, unbalanced.
Anyways, thanks for the feedback Todrael and Rivi - I'll take it into consideration.
------------------
<B>Shevarash -- Code Forger of Sojourn3
</B>
I don't have much to say about heal undead working on lichs other than that lichs are undead so it should work on them whether they cast it on themselves, whether one lich casts it on another lich, or whether their pets cast it on their master(lich). It is a slow chant time from what I remember and doesn't really heal all that much, but it does go somewhere down the direction that lichs are one of the premo classes in the game and take a lot of work to get there. There should be some benefits to all that work and all the penalties they have too, and I think pets healing lichs is a pretty nifty not too out of balanced way to do that.
As for the thing in the news about it being a bug and whatnot, if Shev says it's a bug then it's a bug, big deal. My main problem with the news entries lately has been the utter vaugeness of them and the almost total lack of information contained within them. I've spoke to one imm about it, but they don't do many news entries. I can understand why from the immortal standpoint you'd want them to be vague in order to make us players hunt harder and look more to find the changes, but from the standpoint of the older players who have jobs, kids, and little free time to mud anymore it gets rather annoying. I've seen a good many news entries as of late that could be summed up by "Something somewhere was changed somehow, 3nj0y!" I also can understand the need for brevity in the news so that the news file doesn't get huge and hard to read, but it would sure be great if the imms in charge of updating the news could provide a little more information, at least a clue as to the name of the zone changed, or give some sort of update to the function of the code that was changed or implemented, or at least point to an updated help file that contains the updated information. Thanks.
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Ruld Ragingbear
As for the thing in the news about it being a bug and whatnot, if Shev says it's a bug then it's a bug, big deal. My main problem with the news entries lately has been the utter vaugeness of them and the almost total lack of information contained within them. I've spoke to one imm about it, but they don't do many news entries. I can understand why from the immortal standpoint you'd want them to be vague in order to make us players hunt harder and look more to find the changes, but from the standpoint of the older players who have jobs, kids, and little free time to mud anymore it gets rather annoying. I've seen a good many news entries as of late that could be summed up by "Something somewhere was changed somehow, 3nj0y!" I also can understand the need for brevity in the news so that the news file doesn't get huge and hard to read, but it would sure be great if the imms in charge of updating the news could provide a little more information, at least a clue as to the name of the zone changed, or give some sort of update to the function of the code that was changed or implemented, or at least point to an updated help file that contains the updated information. Thanks.
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Ruld Ragingbear
My pets have MR -I don't-
My pets have vision at night -I don't-
My pets can be healed by other undead -I can't-
can I be remorted as a Real undead? I feel like a poseur.
A ton of good suggestions have been posted for us, I was just wondering if those would be considered bugs too?
1 more suggestion: Make soul bind !dispel?
/sszan
My pets have vision at night -I don't-
My pets can be healed by other undead -I can't-
can I be remorted as a Real undead? I feel like a poseur.
A ton of good suggestions have been posted for us, I was just wondering if those would be considered bugs too?
1 more suggestion: Make soul bind !dispel?
/sszan
-
Xisiqomelir
- Sojourner
- Posts: 870
- Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2002 5:01 am
- Location: Ixarkon
- Contact:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
<B>I don't see how that contributes to the discussion in any way, Ragorn.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's my way of pointing out that the logic you use to back up your statement is flawed. You imply that because the spell has no combat implications that you should be able to use it to heal yourself fully in a matter of seconds when not in immediate danger. You go on to state that since you already have heal undead, allowing your pets to heal you is merely a "timesaver." Your final conclusion is that spells which you consider timesavers are not unbalanced and should be available.
Thus:
1. Rangers have a small self heal.
2. Giving them self full heal usable under the same circumstances as pets healing you (not in combat, not in immediate danger) would thusly qualify as a "timesaver."
3. Timesavers are not unbalanced.
4. Rangers should get self full heal.
I think it's quite elegant, and will go start another thread with this suggestion at once!
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- Ragorn
You group-say 'What's up, bro?'
Touk group-says 'Accounting homework and skill practice.'
You group-say 'Ewww... which is worse?'
<B>I don't see how that contributes to the discussion in any way, Ragorn.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's my way of pointing out that the logic you use to back up your statement is flawed. You imply that because the spell has no combat implications that you should be able to use it to heal yourself fully in a matter of seconds when not in immediate danger. You go on to state that since you already have heal undead, allowing your pets to heal you is merely a "timesaver." Your final conclusion is that spells which you consider timesavers are not unbalanced and should be available.
Thus:
1. Rangers have a small self heal.
2. Giving them self full heal usable under the same circumstances as pets healing you (not in combat, not in immediate danger) would thusly qualify as a "timesaver."
3. Timesavers are not unbalanced.
4. Rangers should get self full heal.
I think it's quite elegant, and will go start another thread with this suggestion at once!
------------------
- Ragorn
You group-say 'What's up, bro?'
Touk group-says 'Accounting homework and skill practice.'
You group-say 'Ewww... which is worse?'
Ragorn,
The problem with your logic is that you are framing the issue as whether a class should obtain a skill. You show how Todrael's reasoning could be used to justify rangers getting a self full-heal. However, Todrael was not suggesting that necros be given something, he was trying to show that there was no reason for an existing skill to be taken away.
You are essentially saying that it is not a legitimate argument against downgrading a skill to point out that it is well balanced. I don't think thats fair. When a skill is tagged for being downgraded, most often it is because it is perceived as being too powerful. Its wholly legitimate for an interested and knowledgable party to argue that in fact the skill is not overly powerful.
Its as if while arguing against the removal of archery you point out that it is well balanced, and then todrael saying "oh its well balanced? then give it to necros!" Its neither here nor there.
Corth
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Goddamned slippery mage.
[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 10-01-2002).]
The problem with your logic is that you are framing the issue as whether a class should obtain a skill. You show how Todrael's reasoning could be used to justify rangers getting a self full-heal. However, Todrael was not suggesting that necros be given something, he was trying to show that there was no reason for an existing skill to be taken away.
You are essentially saying that it is not a legitimate argument against downgrading a skill to point out that it is well balanced. I don't think thats fair. When a skill is tagged for being downgraded, most often it is because it is perceived as being too powerful. Its wholly legitimate for an interested and knowledgable party to argue that in fact the skill is not overly powerful.
Its as if while arguing against the removal of archery you point out that it is well balanced, and then todrael saying "oh its well balanced? then give it to necros!" Its neither here nor there.
Corth
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Goddamned slippery mage.
[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 10-01-2002).]
My biggest point against Ragorn's argument, (which at first glance seems valid and quite humorous) is that it over looks some very vital points in the argument, both for and against.
Liches are different than other classes, they are of a magical nature, and admittedly not quite human. They control pets, that like the masters, are not actual creatures of this realm. Their magical symbiosis is such that they can use their magics on each other to a minor degree, with the summoned creatures' powers dwarfed by the master.
Rangers share no such likeness with anything. Yes, Todrael used the timesaver to make his point, but there are justifications for that. Just what kind of comparison would you make as a ranger to a necromancer where any such bond exists? Arguablly, I could comment that I think foraging for food is a very similar skill. Hey, all it does is save you time, you can make goodberries anyway, right?
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-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
Levvirrnaxxum OOC: 'i like backdoor lovin too!'
Liches are different than other classes, they are of a magical nature, and admittedly not quite human. They control pets, that like the masters, are not actual creatures of this realm. Their magical symbiosis is such that they can use their magics on each other to a minor degree, with the summoned creatures' powers dwarfed by the master.
Rangers share no such likeness with anything. Yes, Todrael used the timesaver to make his point, but there are justifications for that. Just what kind of comparison would you make as a ranger to a necromancer where any such bond exists? Arguablly, I could comment that I think foraging for food is a very similar skill. Hey, all it does is save you time, you can make goodberries anyway, right?
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-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
Levvirrnaxxum OOC: 'i like backdoor lovin too!'
Tell me if I'm wrong here but allowing pets to heal lich masters would allow a class capable of soloing more mobs than most any other class. to solo even more stuff with ease right ?
as it is mobs won't track if they are down far enough in hp till they have a chance to heal. If todreal could attack something hurt it and get hurt himself then run out near dead mem up while his pets heal him there by speeding up the time between runs. couldn't he use that to twink some hard ass mobs?
as it is mobs won't track if they are down far enough in hp till they have a chance to heal. If todreal could attack something hurt it and get hurt himself then run out near dead mem up while his pets heal him there by speeding up the time between runs. couldn't he use that to twink some hard ass mobs?
so basicaly if you guys are upset because they can solo better because pets can heal them? feh
ok so instead of letting them get healed by pets, you would rather them stack up 100+ corpses outside mobs room, raise/send/raise/send rinse repeat till the mob is dead, and heal themself slowly?
either way the mob will die.
letting them have heal is not imbalanced, and is one of the main "perks" of playing the class. just like regen for trolls, innates for drow, archery rangers, traps rogues, headbutt wars
vote Y on Proposition Tod 101
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MoM-D
ok so instead of letting them get healed by pets, you would rather them stack up 100+ corpses outside mobs room, raise/send/raise/send rinse repeat till the mob is dead, and heal themself slowly?
either way the mob will die.
letting them have heal is not imbalanced, and is one of the main "perks" of playing the class. just like regen for trolls, innates for drow, archery rangers, traps rogues, headbutt wars
vote Y on Proposition Tod 101
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MoM-D
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Shevarash:
I am quite qualified to say that the heal undead thing was a bug, as I modified that spell to work on Liches back around their introduction in Toril. It was not working as I intended, thus it was a 'bug' and I allowed it to be fixed.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry I posted about it earlier Tod
I do have to say, after Tanras pulled a stunt back in the day, I recall that his wraiths could no longer heal him. I hadn't realized that was reversed for a while this wipe; I just assumed it was still that way.
Incidentally the main reason given for necros to not have 'boneskin' was that their pets could heal them. So maybe you could bump that other thread again?
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Daz group-says 'rofl, moritheil is the mcdonald's of death'
I am quite qualified to say that the heal undead thing was a bug, as I modified that spell to work on Liches back around their introduction in Toril. It was not working as I intended, thus it was a 'bug' and I allowed it to be fixed.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry I posted about it earlier Tod
I do have to say, after Tanras pulled a stunt back in the day, I recall that his wraiths could no longer heal him. I hadn't realized that was reversed for a while this wipe; I just assumed it was still that way.
Incidentally the main reason given for necros to not have 'boneskin' was that their pets could heal them. So maybe you could bump that other thread again?
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Daz group-says 'rofl, moritheil is the mcdonald's of death'
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rellanor:
<B>Tell me if I'm wrong here but allowing pets to heal lich masters would allow a class capable of soloing more mobs than most any other class. to solo even more stuff with ease right ?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
IIRC, You are wrong. Liches are not even 1/10th the solopower they used to be.
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Daz group-says 'rofl, moritheil is the mcdonald's of death'
<B>Tell me if I'm wrong here but allowing pets to heal lich masters would allow a class capable of soloing more mobs than most any other class. to solo even more stuff with ease right ?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
IIRC, You are wrong. Liches are not even 1/10th the solopower they used to be.
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Daz group-says 'rofl, moritheil is the mcdonald's of death'
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Gromikazer
- Sojourner
- Posts: 244
- Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2002 5:01 am
I was going to go into a long speech, but decided that it would be better handled with a single statement.
Lich's are already extremeley powerful, possibly more so then any other class in the game, and the remort quest adds to their distinctive prestige, hence if it were up to me, I would make significant downgrades.
*Complaining about heal undead from pets is probably one of the most inane bitching I've ever heard. This is not meant as an attack, but there are many things that can be discussed that are far more important then wether a classes pets can heal them.
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Gromikazer Terrorforge -Veldruk- Orbdrin D'oloth
[This message has been edited by Gromikazer (edited 10-02-2002).]
Lich's are already extremeley powerful, possibly more so then any other class in the game, and the remort quest adds to their distinctive prestige, hence if it were up to me, I would make significant downgrades.
*Complaining about heal undead from pets is probably one of the most inane bitching I've ever heard. This is not meant as an attack, but there are many things that can be discussed that are far more important then wether a classes pets can heal them.
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Gromikazer Terrorforge -Veldruk- Orbdrin D'oloth
[This message has been edited by Gromikazer (edited 10-02-2002).]
well Zoldren I wouldn't see anything wrong with dragging 100 corpses to kill 1 mob but you would be using alot of time and effort to kill it. the spell is something that the lich has already and can cast on himself or herself. the pets can heal each other I think it's not a bad set up if the pets can't heal you maybe you should just mem an extra heal or 2 and remem them like every other caster on the mud rather than expect to get a near endless supply from your undead servents.
back to what I said first using 100 corpses to make pets to kill a bad ass mob would be fine if you could get them there and where willing to spend the time. you would be using your skills to make fodder and let it do some work for you.
back to what I said first using 100 corpses to make pets to kill a bad ass mob would be fine if you could get them there and where willing to spend the time. you would be using your skills to make fodder and let it do some work for you.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gromikazer:
<B>I was going to go into a long speech, but decided that it would be better handled with a single statement.
Lich's are already extremeley powerful, possibly more so then any other class in the game, and the remort quest adds to their distinctive prestige, hence if it were up to me, I would make significant downgrades.
*Complaining about heal undead from pets is probably one of the most inane bitching I've ever heard. This is not meant as an attack, but there are many things that can be discussed that are far more important then wether a classes pets can heal them.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have to assume that you did not even read my post, as the definition of inane is "one that lacks sense or substance." I think I thoroughly proved that there is significant reasoning for my own case, enough so that it should at the very minimum be considered as an alternative to the downgrade. I also must assume that you have not read the many other posts stating that just because there are "more important" things to worry about, doesn't mean that other issues cannot be addressed.
Extremely powerful, more than any other class in the game? Your opinion is truly flawed, my friend, and I have let you know that about this particular issue in the past many times. I can only hope and pray that the usefulness of my class never does become "up to you."
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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
<B>I was going to go into a long speech, but decided that it would be better handled with a single statement.
Lich's are already extremeley powerful, possibly more so then any other class in the game, and the remort quest adds to their distinctive prestige, hence if it were up to me, I would make significant downgrades.
*Complaining about heal undead from pets is probably one of the most inane bitching I've ever heard. This is not meant as an attack, but there are many things that can be discussed that are far more important then wether a classes pets can heal them.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have to assume that you did not even read my post, as the definition of inane is "one that lacks sense or substance." I think I thoroughly proved that there is significant reasoning for my own case, enough so that it should at the very minimum be considered as an alternative to the downgrade. I also must assume that you have not read the many other posts stating that just because there are "more important" things to worry about, doesn't mean that other issues cannot be addressed.
Extremely powerful, more than any other class in the game? Your opinion is truly flawed, my friend, and I have let you know that about this particular issue in the past many times. I can only hope and pray that the usefulness of my class never does become "up to you."
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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
Is it just me, or should I start providing flame-proof disclaimers at the beginning of every one of my posts?
How's this:
What I am typing is an opinion and people are free to disagree with that opinion in any way they wish. I would very much welcome, indeed, I encourage them to post their reasoning behind that disagreement so that more information can be provided on the topic so that more and more people can make informed decisions. Posts maligning the worthiness of the issue to be addressed, posts stating disagreement for disagreements sake, and posts designed around wholly flawed and inarticulate logical thoughts or incorrect knowledge do not fit into this category of constructive feedback. Please only post if you feel you are contributing to the issue.
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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
How's this:
What I am typing is an opinion and people are free to disagree with that opinion in any way they wish. I would very much welcome, indeed, I encourage them to post their reasoning behind that disagreement so that more information can be provided on the topic so that more and more people can make informed decisions. Posts maligning the worthiness of the issue to be addressed, posts stating disagreement for disagreements sake, and posts designed around wholly flawed and inarticulate logical thoughts or incorrect knowledge do not fit into this category of constructive feedback. Please only post if you feel you are contributing to the issue.
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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
Vit works on liches, although it was recently changed to not work on their pets. Heal undead from pets used to heal between 50 and 100 hps per spell, the average around 65. Casting it on myself heals between 95-105, average 102.
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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
[This message has been edited by Todrael (edited 10-02-2002).]
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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
[This message has been edited by Todrael (edited 10-02-2002).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Elseenas:
<B>Grom:
Incidentally, the quest to get Lich should not be considered as "adding to its prestige" but should mean "this class should be that much more kickass"
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agree!!
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Daz group-says 'rofl, moritheil is the mcdonald's of death'
<B>Grom:
Incidentally, the quest to get Lich should not be considered as "adding to its prestige" but should mean "this class should be that much more kickass"
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agree!!
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Daz group-says 'rofl, moritheil is the mcdonald's of death'
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Gromikazer
- Sojourner
- Posts: 244
- Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2002 5:01 am
Seeing as how it is the only remort in the game, it is quite obviously hard to balance, I'm sure. How do you make a remort worthwhile, but not to powerful. It is quite a fine line. In this case, I don't feel that lichs were hurt by the 'bug fix'. I guess it is easy to feel sleighted, when loosing a previously useable ability.
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Gromikazer Terrorforge -Veldruk- Orbdrin D'oloth
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Gromikazer Terrorforge -Veldruk- Orbdrin D'oloth
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gromikazer:
Seeing as how it is the only remort in the game, it is quite obviously hard to balance, I'm sure. How do you make a remort worthwhile, but not to powerful. It is quite a fine line. In this case, I don't feel that lichs were hurt by the 'bug fix'. I guess it is easy to feel sleighted, when loosing a previously useable ability.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1) One of the limiting factors is that the necromancer class is weaker than most other casting classes, allowing the growth into a Lich to not overpower them. I have also said in the past that I do agree that balancing the class is more difficult than most others, not just in being a remort, but doubly so because of the dual nature of being a PC and undead.
2) I specifically remember my conversation with Iyachtu about lich healing. I mentioned how much my pets healed me, and he said it seemed a bit low. A bit low. This coming from the god that re-formed the class. I was lead to believe by this statement and the conversation in general that it was considered an integral part of the class's balance.
3) Again I must assume that you did not read my post, as the second thing I did aside from thanking the admin for my hometown change was express my regret at being dissatisfied with the change to healing, pointing out that I knew everyone would expect me to be upset.
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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
[This message has been edited by Todrael (edited 10-02-2002).]
Seeing as how it is the only remort in the game, it is quite obviously hard to balance, I'm sure. How do you make a remort worthwhile, but not to powerful. It is quite a fine line. In this case, I don't feel that lichs were hurt by the 'bug fix'. I guess it is easy to feel sleighted, when loosing a previously useable ability.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1) One of the limiting factors is that the necromancer class is weaker than most other casting classes, allowing the growth into a Lich to not overpower them. I have also said in the past that I do agree that balancing the class is more difficult than most others, not just in being a remort, but doubly so because of the dual nature of being a PC and undead.
2) I specifically remember my conversation with Iyachtu about lich healing. I mentioned how much my pets healed me, and he said it seemed a bit low. A bit low. This coming from the god that re-formed the class. I was lead to believe by this statement and the conversation in general that it was considered an integral part of the class's balance.
3) Again I must assume that you did not read my post, as the second thing I did aside from thanking the admin for my hometown change was express my regret at being dissatisfied with the change to healing, pointing out that I knew everyone would expect me to be upset.
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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
[This message has been edited by Todrael (edited 10-02-2002).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gerad:
<B>***** is the only one that matters and already commented...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It truly scares me when players on a game say things like this.
Everyone's opinion matters.
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Malacar - omg ymir!
<B>***** is the only one that matters and already commented...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It truly scares me when players on a game say things like this.
Everyone's opinion matters.
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Malacar - omg ymir!
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