Haste Items

[Waelos]

Yes, I'm bringing this up again. Why? For several reasons. There are at least two other active/current threads about this spell, and 95% of all of the enchanters who responded indicated that haste is nothing more than a pain in the ass, how they gag people who ask for it, how they don't bother memming it, or ignore people who ask for the spell, etc. I may be wrong, but haste items were removed 'to increase the value of casters in groups'. Well, it would be very hard to argue that casters would lose any desirability if haste items were brought back into the game.

So far the only arguments I've seen against something like this is that 'we should bring more necros'. Um, OK thats fine. But they get ticked and ornery when they have to have their pets casting it too. . . recently I've been involved in a couple groups featuring Necro's, and I was excited . . . but in the end they get overwhelmed by . . .well, whatever casters get overwhelmed with and end up not bothering.

Please don't jump in with arguments such as 'well, your necros/enchanters/whateverclasswithhaste sucks!' Because they're moot and realy lack thought. But in the end we know two things to be true:

1) Melee classes/damage need a boost.

2) Many spellcasters who have the haste spell hate having to cast it on people and feel it is a burden they wouldn't mind being relieved of to some degree.

Now, I fully agree that making haste last 5 minutes or so on a spellup would help this problem. That didn't seem to fly so I thought I'd bring this old horse back from the dead to beat it some more.

Im not advocating putting haste on jot skull earrings or what not. Put the mist cloak and flames cloak back in game. . .add it to hard to get quest weapons or whatever. they have to be common enough to make somewhat of a difference but not so common as to make it ridiculous. Just looking for a balance.

Anyway, I feel I've made a strong case for bringing back haste items. Or at least increasing haste duration. If you have anything constructive to add, feel free. If you're going to whine, flame, or make statements that are just inane, please go drink a nice hot cup of shut the fuck up. =)

Lost

PS - Bardhaste is broken. Badly. (anyone confirm?) I've gotten some consensus from bards this is not my imagination =)



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[Dalar]

putting haste on the oakvale armor instead of prot all would be a good start that quest is ridiculously silly for its rewards.

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[Erevan] Our elite team of gods will be watching for equip campers.... beware...
Erevan OOC: 'One god is specifically assigned to Dartan :P'
Kiaransalee OOC: 'rangers suck'
Iyachtu OOC: 'and a lovely nite it is :)'
Cifle tells you 'i am gonna take a wild guess, but is your evil alt dartana?'
You tell Cifle '*golf clap*'
Cifle tells you 'Call me Sherlok'

[Xebes]

as a bard: I regularly get 1 hit per round while dual wielding and haste song up. It's depressing also that bard haste even at level 40 is so undependable that when I'm singing offensive harmony (which gives haste some of the time), all the melee types in the group still request the spell. Just to confirm what Lost was sayin'.

Also, just to agree further, melee damage is badly out of whack. Isn't it sort of sad that a weapon's worth is measured in large part by what it procs? I hear people all the time saying that the proc makes the weapon. Which is back to warrior-type classes trying to be the most like spellcasters in order to accomplish anything in terms of damage.

-Zameru

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-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!

[Malacar]

Make them hard to get, but yes please bring them back.

Then maybe we can tone down all the ineffectual 'You are a whiner!' posts that are so damn common on here.

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Malacar - omg ymir!

[Guest]

The odd thing is I play a bard and I haven't had the experience that bard haste doesn't give an extra attack. I'll go over it again, just in case.

[Guest]

Addendum: When you say bard haste is broken, are you referring to the dual-wield haste attack?

[Daz]

Can I have a high level haste all in group spell with a decent duration? :P

*nodme*

For the record, that was sarcasm. Mages need nothing more, and giving warriors back something that really does nothing but help warriors and other melee classes fare a bit better on their own is good. I mean, don't forget - they are giving up something to get haste, so it isn't the end of the world.

[Xisiqomelir]

Actually I think just increasing the duration of the current haste spell would work out well.

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"I know you like to believe fairy tales about how rude and unfair evils are, but keep them on your side of Baldur's Gate."

[Galkar]

I think the tiny silver ring in WD should have haste! *nog me*

I agree that haste items should probably be re-examined.

How about a ring that has nothing but haste. Put it at the end of a zone that is lacking in some area, and maybe make it a 50/50 rare load.

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Cordan Se'Draka - Paladin of Helm - Mortal Eye of the Vigilant One -

[Ilshadrial]

Dalar,

Oakvale items are UBER according to the panel of area gods. Sorry... no upgrades...

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Ilshad

"Your accomplishment is nothing compared to the glory that is Ilshadrial!!" Yayaril

[Kifle]

In full agreement, make them !caster class also since they would only be used to plvl alts. It would be for melee damage balance and thats it.

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Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Dartan tells you 'i own so hard sometimes it makes me want to cry'

Nitupopple group-says 'esrel get glorishan off'

[Shaundakul]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>Dalar,

Oakvale items are UBER according to the panel of area gods. Sorry... no upgrades...

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's ok, he thinks the quest items from Hulburg suck too, even though they are the best in their slot. Some people are never happy.

[Gurns]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Xebes:
<B>as a bard: I regularly get 1 hit per round while dual wielding and haste song up.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bards aren't really hitters anymore, so dual wielding is of, um, limited utility. More style than function. Though something is odd, since you should be averaging about 2 hits per round with that combination. Unless your skills aren't maxed for your level.

In terms of haste alone, hold a drum, don't dual wield. The percent of verses you get haste will go up noticeably. You still should average 2 hits per round. (Rough guesses, I don't do a lot of hitting anymore.)

[Dalar]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Shaundakul:
That's ok, he thinks the quest items from Hulburg suck too, even though they are the best in their slot. Some people are never happy.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i don't htink doing 6 rares, all of spiderhaunt, a good portion of um2 and some misc 5-8 man group kills is worth a 16 hp -3 sv petri sense life earring. ooo 4 hp and -1 sv petri more than an ET earring. the people who know some of the quest feel it's not worth it either. it's like doing kerns or erlan and only getting an elven collar or noxious fumes.

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[Erevan] Our elite team of gods will be watching for equip campers.... beware...
Erevan OOC: 'One god is specifically assigned to Dartan :P'
Kiaransalee OOC: 'rangers suck'
Iyachtu OOC: 'and a lovely nite it is :)'
Cifle tells you 'i am gonna take a wild guess, but is your evil alt dartana?'
You tell Cifle '*golf clap*'
Cifle tells you 'Call me Sherlok'

[Jegzed]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalar:
<B> i don't htink doing 6 rares, all of spiderhaunt, a good portion of um2 and some misc 5-8 man group kills is worth a 16 hp -3 sv petri sense life earring.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd kill for such an earring..

Talk to me



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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition

[Ilshadrial]

Sorry, but fumes is best item from erlan, bad useage, it would be like doing erlan and only getting hrm, elven bag of magic. hah!

4 dam bracelet, ROCKS!

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Ilshad

"Your accomplishment is nothing compared to the glory that is Ilshadrial!!" Yayaril

[old depok]

Add a haste ring to roots. Hitters and Tanks dont want to do roots since there is nothing in it for them. You can't do roots without them.

Seems like a nice solution.

[Corth]

There was obviously an al quaida plot to hijack this thread.

Wey: While i agree with you that haste items should be brought back, I dont think your going to get anywhere with this suggestion. The "haste items will never be brought back" mantra has over time become dogma and is considered well settled and beyond discussion. Your better off collecting all the quotes from *casters* on this bbs who have argued for spell and melee damage to be balanced. When the people who would be most effected by a downgrade are arguing in favor of it, it says a lot...

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.

[moritheil]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>4 dam bracelet, ROCKS!
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HOLY @#$%
is that legal?

I can't believe that Cyric ever even thought of allowing such a thing to exist... Unless there's some hideous downside to it?

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Xisiqomelir OOC: 'Human girls are for eating '
Chandigar group-says 'FS: Full body armor, ac5, -5 hit -5 dam, prot mori'

[Daz]

its ugly?

[gnerble]

Noxious always rocked in previous incarnations...

Now, 2 dam bracelet > 4 dam bracelet, because, well, 2 dam bracelet is in the game.

Enjoy!

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[Mplor]

4dam bracelet, even were it in the game, still has minus max_con. For non-rogue hitters, that is a potentially big down-side.

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[Gerad]

Dont mean to hijack but someone already brought up hitrates and stuff.

Have you noticed, instead of upping melee dammage, hit rate, or adding skills, everything now had insane MR to compensate for spells doing most of the dammage?

-Gerad

Edit: On topic, I think there should be haste on some stuff.
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Auril tells you 'Yes, we're plotting the destruction of all that is holy - and unholy, too. Just to be thorough.'

[This message has been edited by Gerad (edited 11-18-2002).]

[Dalar]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>Sorry, but fumes is best item from erlan, bad useage, it would be like doing erlan and only getting hrm, elven bag of magic. hah!

4 dam bracelet, ROCKS!

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hm you're right. well my argument is i got an extra 4 hp, -1 sv petri(if i wear batskull i get +2 sv petri) for month+ work. I hope that the area gods would add more items to the reward instead of just upgrading the single item. something like ac 7 15 hp +9 agi gloves or a maxagi bracer or something would be great. Erlan and Kerns were both long quests that had some awesome items and some decent ones. I view this quest around that difficulty.

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[Erevan] Our elite team of gods will be watching for equip campers.... beware...
Erevan OOC: 'One god is specifically assigned to Dartan :P'
Kiaransalee OOC: 'rangers suck'
Iyachtu OOC: 'and a lovely nite it is :)'
Cifle tells you 'i am gonna take a wild guess, but is your evil alt dartana?'
You tell Cifle '*golf clap*'
Cifle tells you 'Call me Sherlok'

[Daz]

your newest post sounds much more reasonable, imo, than the earlier one :P

you gotta remember dalar, very few players are at your level.

[Gyrx]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
you gotta remember dalar, very few players are at your level.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya, I for one tried to stoop that low and nearly broke my back! *tease*

ok..back to homework

[Jhorr]

A hitter haste item is already available. *scratch*

[Daz]

verm sleeves hardly resolve the issue at all

[Waelos]

Jhorr: Vermillion sleeves are hardly a 'haste' item. I would trade them if I got a decent offer for them because haste potions are SO much more effective.

Iyachtu: I do not understand your question. . . the dual wield haste attack? I do not get the full effect of a true 'haste' spell when under the effects of a bard 'haste'. If this is intended then. . .well I'd say reexamine it. I can't tell if I get one more attack, or what. . .I just know I'm not getting nearly as many per round as if I have the spell.

Gerad: not really sure what you're trying to say. Spell damage, even with MR, outpaces melee by far. Not only that, the Flux spell exists and allows for greater spell penetration. Melee as it stands is 1) light in damage, 2) totally thwarted in efficiency by the insane AC, dodge and parry rates of mobiles.

If tomorrow we woke up and all twilights, gythkas, ambrans, etcheds, sauks and windsongs were haste we'd be one step closer to melee/caster balance.

If melee was ever too strong, it was because of monks. My memory could be wrong but a lvl 50 monk with decent eq was typically getting 7 attacks per round at 7d5 +45 (there were those with 50+, but we're talking typical). That is so far beyond what any player is capable of today its silly. I don't even match that with a Tiamat weapon and one of the hardest to get weapons in the game.

So, really. . taking that kind of step into having haste items again would bring us to a level where our melee was _less_ than it was at Sojourn 1's pinnacle and yet more than it is today. A happy middle ground.

Lost.

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[This message has been edited by Waelos (edited 11-19-2002).]

[Ilshadrial]

1. Etched quest is way to simple to merit haste.

2. If haste were ever put back on an item, they should be definetly only warrior classes/sub-classes only, to prevent caster pleveling.



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Ilshad

"Your accomplishment is nothing compared to the glory that is Ilshadrial!!" Yayaril

[thanuk]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>Dalar,

Oakvale items are UBER according to the panel of area gods. Sorry... no upgrades...

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

the only warrior who wears any kind of whole body armor is Gormal, and it aint the oakvale armor. my armor sleeves and leggings give me 2 hit, 6 dam, 9 dex, prot gas, acid, -5 svspell, and somehwere around 45 ac. Until wholebody armor can compete with that, the oakvale quest is just not uber.

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Thanuk Pantherclaw

[Sarell]

Comparisons with batskull earrings are a bit odd. They are VERY VERY VERY hard to get considering they don't load anymore cos they were so powerful, then they got !summon removed and not reinstated? dont you hate that? fireweed *cough*.

Ladak wears full body armor you wuss!!! Hip Hip Hooray for RDA *cackle* okay I admit there are two better options I am looking at. Admitidly I don't wear my oakvale armor 'cos it is the wrong colour, unless doing a zone where keeping up prots is very important like clouds. For the serious power player other combinations own oakvale armor.


Oh yah haste items. Agree with ilshad to make them fighter classes only, haste is an awesome plevel prize. This could be applied to low level warrior clases also however, but that is unavoidable (don't even mention level restricitons!) and I don't see a prob with powerleveling them... exp is pooful for the 10th time. Agree that etched is too simple to warrant perm haste.

While I agree that powerful haste items would serve to help the hitter classes, that would mean that everyone in these classes would need these items to be in that league. I would rather see weapons just recieve upgrades; weapons are what we are hitting with afterall not our eyepatches! A selection of these could be haste upgrade wthout upping the damage dice significantly. Then if you used one of the large weapons and had caster hasting that would be ideal. But you could still be effective wielding a haste weapon like windsong (currently has mediocre dice?) and another stronger weapon. Would be a problem for rogues who want to look good wielding matching weapons.

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[Dalar]

Yea Gormal wears dragonhunter with stats that actually mean something. the weapon is only good vs !MR mobs, the shield is only good vs archers (there's alot of those) and dragons. oakvale armor. by the time you can make this thing you should have been able to do ET for like 30 earrings. and sadly, dragonhunter is a much stronger armor due to its stats for 3 less prots and 35 less ac. upgrading oakvale quest doesn't necessarily mean upgrading the rewards.

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[Erevan] Our elite team of gods will be watching for equip campers.... beware...
Erevan OOC: 'One god is specifically assigned to Dartan :P'
Kiaransalee OOC: 'rangers suck'
Iyachtu OOC: 'and a lovely nite it is :)'
Cifle tells you 'i am gonna take a wild guess, but is your evil alt dartana?'
You tell Cifle '*golf clap*'
Cifle tells you 'Call me Sherlok'

[moritheil]

Look, I have a solution.

Implement a permahaste, fullbody armor, that also has -99max_con and -99max_str.

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Xisiqomelir OOC: 'Human girls are for eating '
Chandigar group-says 'FS: Full body armor, ac5, -5 hit -5 dam, prot mori'
Nekler group-says 'do NOT rescue mori. he is to die this trip :P'

[Allycis]

How about making bard haste last longer, so the a bard can put haste up and switch songs, but with the haste continuing through a relatively short fight

[Kifle]

How about fixing melee damage? I quit playing my rogue basicaly because we do !damage and it stopped being fun when I saw, what would take me 10 rounds to kill, a non-voker caster killed it in 2.

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Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Dartan tells you 'i own so hard sometimes it makes me want to cry'

Nitupopple group-says 'esrel get glorishan off'

[Daz]

fix . . . melee damage?

whats wrong with it?

did i mention that i'm a caster now? :P

[gordex]

As far as the oakvale armor goes, I wear it (although I'm a druid). It is by far the best armor I can wear, even though I lose 85 hp by wearing it. I don't know about warrior classes, so I will take their word for it.

What I would really like to know is, what is the HARM in giving haste items to hitter classes? It is my understanding that chanters have plenty to cast as it is.

[This message has been edited by gordex (edited 11-22-2002).]

[Snurgt]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>fix . . . melee damage?

whats wrong with it?

did i mention that i'm a caster now? :P</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

as are most people who used to play melee as their prime.


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Snurgt take no prisoner.

[Dalar]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by gordex:
<B>As far as the oakvale armor goes, I wear it (although I'm a druid). It is by far the best armor I can wear, even though I lose 85 hp by wearing it. I don't know about warrior classes, so I will take their word for it.

What I would really like to know is, what is the HARM in giving haste items to hitter classes? It is my understanding that chanters have plenty to cast as it is.

[This message has been edited by gordex (edited 11-22-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

gordex you wore the armor because ET earrings and hulburg eq didn't exist during the time. you can get all prots from ET and hulburg eq now very easily and still get around 60-80 more hp than you would wearing oakvale armor. did i also mention the ac is pointless b/c you have bark too?


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[Erevan] Our elite team of gods will be watching for equip campers.... beware...
Erevan OOC: 'One god is specifically assigned to Dartan :P'
Kiaransalee OOC: 'rangers suck'
Iyachtu OOC: 'and a lovely nite it is :)'
Cifle tells you 'i am gonna take a wild guess, but is your evil alt dartana?'
You tell Cifle '*golf clap*'
Cifle tells you 'Call me Sherlok'

[moritheil]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalar:
<B> gordex you wore the armor because ET earrings and hulburg eq didn't exist during the time. you can get all prots from ET and hulburg eq now very easily and still get around 60-80 more hp than you would wearing oakvale armor. did i also mention the ac is pointless b/c you have bark too?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK. so, to clarify, because a whole slew of items can be added together to be better than this single item, you feel that the item should be upgraded.

Is the fight for it THAT much harder? (And I'm honestly asking, since I haven't done it.)

If so, I'll support upgrading the item.

[This message has been edited by moritheil (edited 11-22-2002).]

[Xebes]

Judging from how many times it's been done, I'd say kern is a bit easier than oakvale quests. And deathknell pwns any oakvale item by FAR. or the elf collars, or spellbooks, etc.

oakvale shield is missle shield, who the fuck cares?

armor is fullbody and prots, prots aren't THAT hard to come by... and it's only 25 more ac than rda, which I can get in 15mins.

oakvale sword... oh woopee, 1h weapon procs lightning bolt that doesn't even go through globe. That's uber. Right. I'd say there are a bunch of situations where I still wield my gcd over one of these swords.



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-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!

[Dalar]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B> OK. so, to clarify, because a whole slew of items can be added together to be better than this single item, you feel that the item should be upgraded.

Is the fight for it THAT much harder? (And I'm honestly asking, since I haven't done it.)

If so, I'll support upgrading the item.

[This message has been edited by moritheil (edited 11-22-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

basically. think about how many ET earrings there are. think of how many oakvale armors exist (four).


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[Erevan] Our elite team of gods will be watching for equip campers.... beware...
Erevan OOC: 'One god is specifically assigned to Dartan :P'
Kiaransalee OOC: 'rangers suck'
Iyachtu OOC: 'and a lovely nite it is :)'
Cifle tells you 'i am gonna take a wild guess, but is your evil alt dartana?'
You tell Cifle '*golf clap*'
Cifle tells you 'Call me Sherlok'

[thanuk]

whole body armor takes the slots of on body, on arms, and on legs. So yes, because you can mesh a whole bunch of eq together and get better stats than the wholebody armor, the wholebody armor should be upgraded to compete with what you can get from all three equipment slots. And the fight is friggin hard. Not to ruin the surprise, but think midget tossing

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Thanuk Pantherclaw

[Frobakhal]

I personally think there is no need for perm haste items in the game. I do vouch for making bard haste last longer or occur faster, I'm not sure on how many battlechanters play vs. bards, but fixing battletrance would be great (even if it isn't haste...the occurance of hitting all members in group is very small, let alone hitting anyone vs. the mana cost...(maybe give a change of haste to make up for the lack thereof *hint*)....