Your quickening chant fills your cohort with awesome determination.
Your song dramatically increases the movements of your companions!
Character attributes for Dartok
Level: 50 Race: Orc Class: Battlechanter
Age: 79 yrs / 8 mths Height: 58 inches Weight: 122 lbs
STR: 94 AGI: 63 DEX: *** CON: 97
POW: 59 INT: 84 WIS: 80 CHA: ***
Armor Class: 56 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 24 Damroll: 24
Alignment: -1000 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[-3] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[-5] SPE[-9]
Wimpy: not set
Load carried: Very Light
Yugok begins to sing along with Dartok.
Your quickening chant fills your cohort with awesome determination.
Your song dramatically increases the movements of your companions!
Character attributes for Dartok
Level: 50 Race: Orc Class: Battlechanter
Age: 79 yrs / 8 mths Height: 58 inches Weight: 122 lbs
STR: 94 AGI: 63 DEX: *** CON: 97
POW: 59 INT: 84 WIS: 80 CHA: ***
Armor Class: 56 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 23 Damroll: 23
Alignment: -1000 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[-3] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[-5] SPE[-9]
Wimpy: not set
Load carried: Very Light
that was in the same fight, yugok is a 41 battlechanter...pretty lame i'd say
Accompany at its finest
Could it be that when someone accompanies you the start timer for your song is reset so that you lose the benefit of the time duration of your song?
This would be hard to see since most of the time bards accompany very early in the original song and thus there would be almost no drop in the value to the time you have been singing.
Just a thought.
Depok
This would be hard to see since most of the time bards accompany very early in the original song and thus there would be almost no drop in the value to the time you have been singing.
Just a thought.
Depok
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Guest
OK, there's some mass confusion here. Lemme give ya a little peek into it (without giving out too much info).
1. The song affects are not set amounts. You won't always get +6/+3 until your skill nothces some more, for instance.
2. Each verse of the song there's a check for the quality of the song. It rolls some dice, based on the skill of the bard(s) to determine how effective the particular verse will be.
3. Your skill in the category of song is the prime determinant, with bonuses for your instrument skill and accompany. Each of them is done as a die roll, but it's not done as 1 - skill level, it's designed to give a more consistent result than that. Accompany was changed to have an increased affect in comparison to the instrument skill a coupla weeks ago.
4. Each one of those elements is a die roll, which means at the high end, you'll *usually* get a fairly average result.
5. Accompany raises the maximum result for each of the songs, in addition to adding to the 'quality' of the song.
So... what can happen is that is you compare ONE verse without accompany with ONE verse with accompany (assuming the person accompanying is good at accompany) you could see this exact scenario. However, if you take the time to track your results (you could do this at fountain) and get your averages, you'll find that with accompany you'll get better averages and higher maxes.
However, if the accompanying bard has a very low skill, there won't be a large difference (though the first bard has his cap raised, so he could get results that are higher than he normally sees).
Also, keep in mind that if the bard that's accompanying has a low skill in the particular song, it won't be very effective.
I think I may have found a reason for accompany not notching that quickly (having to do with notching the song that's being sung first thus preventing the skill notch right afterwards), but it only has an affect if you're still notching the song you're singing (and successfully, at that).
[This message has been edited by Iyachtu (edited 11-15-2002).]
1. The song affects are not set amounts. You won't always get +6/+3 until your skill nothces some more, for instance.
2. Each verse of the song there's a check for the quality of the song. It rolls some dice, based on the skill of the bard(s) to determine how effective the particular verse will be.
3. Your skill in the category of song is the prime determinant, with bonuses for your instrument skill and accompany. Each of them is done as a die roll, but it's not done as 1 - skill level, it's designed to give a more consistent result than that. Accompany was changed to have an increased affect in comparison to the instrument skill a coupla weeks ago.
4. Each one of those elements is a die roll, which means at the high end, you'll *usually* get a fairly average result.
5. Accompany raises the maximum result for each of the songs, in addition to adding to the 'quality' of the song.
So... what can happen is that is you compare ONE verse without accompany with ONE verse with accompany (assuming the person accompanying is good at accompany) you could see this exact scenario. However, if you take the time to track your results (you could do this at fountain) and get your averages, you'll find that with accompany you'll get better averages and higher maxes.
However, if the accompanying bard has a very low skill, there won't be a large difference (though the first bard has his cap raised, so he could get results that are higher than he normally sees).
Also, keep in mind that if the bard that's accompanying has a low skill in the particular song, it won't be very effective.
I think I may have found a reason for accompany not notching that quickly (having to do with notching the song that's being sung first thus preventing the skill notch right afterwards), but it only has an affect if you're still notching the song you're singing (and successfully, at that).
[This message has been edited by Iyachtu (edited 11-15-2002).]
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Guest
Incidentally, there are some other things on bards that I'm gonna be tweaking soon. The primary thing is that the songs take too long to improve in quality (based on verses) and increase stutters.
Turns out people don't sing the same song for very long.
[This message has been edited by Iyachtu (edited 11-15-2002).]
Turns out people don't sing the same song for very long.
[This message has been edited by Iyachtu (edited 11-15-2002).]
Iyachtu... that's AWESOME to hear.
You've pretty much pinpointed some of my annoyances with the class as what you're going to address.
I find that I may sing up to 4 different songs within the span of a single large fight. Just as a data point.
I'd say I never ever use the songs of revelation, protection, regeneration, miscast magic, and _rarely_ ever use the song of harming.
Also as something to think about, as a bard, there is NEVER EVER a time where I'm not singing something. Therefore, I think the only spells out of the bard spell list that I have ever cast are the occasional di and dm. This is mostly because of the long timer between stopping a song and being able to cast- it's usually MUCH easier to carry potions or ask a mage in the group for the spell I need.
The same goes for rogue skills... in fact, I rarely even use piercing weapons, because since i'm singing, I can't backstab or circle anyways.
I guess the current biggest issue I see with bards is that since singing is the most useful thing they can do for groups, it's once again possible for a bard to start singing while in a zone group and just go afk for most of the zone, come back for the big fights when the leader wants a specific song sung. To clarify:
Bard = always singing. Therefore,
Bard cannot use other skills.
The timer after finishing a song where you can basically do nothing discourages bards from changing songs. (So does the fact that it takes a LONG time for songs to start improving.)
Therefore, as a bard in a zone, I can be AT the keys, and have nothing to do where I need to touch the keyboard for as long as a half hour at a time.
Please in no way consider this a slam on the bard class, because I ABSOLUTELY love what you've done with it. I just wanted to compile some o f my experience with the class so that you can determine if further revisions to the class should be made.
In addition, to return to the "accompany" focus of the thread, I have personally never seen accompany make a significant enough difference in the bard song to warrant a group leader bringing a second bard over _any_ other class. However, based on the description you gave of how accompany works, the reason we as players don't see a difference hardly at all with accompany as without is that we don't sing the songs long enough to reach the maxes as it is, much less the improved maxes with accompany factored in. So the changes you proposed should be definitely immediately visible.
Also, would you consider re-arranging the caps on some of the roguish skills given to bards? I regularly miss MANY backstabs even on paraed mobs, and hit a circle once in a blue moon at level 40. And I think I spend longer trying to sneak and hide than Cherzra does trying to search something out. The biggest annoyance with these skills is that they are not (intended this way?) reliable whatsoever. For an example, bard sneak is basically unusable unless attempting to "twink" something, because it caps too low to avoid being left behind when following someone.
Anyways, catch me in-game sometime if you'd like to discuss further.
-Zameru -=Noisemaker=-
------------------
-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
You've pretty much pinpointed some of my annoyances with the class as what you're going to address.
I find that I may sing up to 4 different songs within the span of a single large fight. Just as a data point.
I'd say I never ever use the songs of revelation, protection, regeneration, miscast magic, and _rarely_ ever use the song of harming.
Also as something to think about, as a bard, there is NEVER EVER a time where I'm not singing something. Therefore, I think the only spells out of the bard spell list that I have ever cast are the occasional di and dm. This is mostly because of the long timer between stopping a song and being able to cast- it's usually MUCH easier to carry potions or ask a mage in the group for the spell I need.
The same goes for rogue skills... in fact, I rarely even use piercing weapons, because since i'm singing, I can't backstab or circle anyways.
I guess the current biggest issue I see with bards is that since singing is the most useful thing they can do for groups, it's once again possible for a bard to start singing while in a zone group and just go afk for most of the zone, come back for the big fights when the leader wants a specific song sung. To clarify:
Bard = always singing. Therefore,
Bard cannot use other skills.
The timer after finishing a song where you can basically do nothing discourages bards from changing songs. (So does the fact that it takes a LONG time for songs to start improving.)
Therefore, as a bard in a zone, I can be AT the keys, and have nothing to do where I need to touch the keyboard for as long as a half hour at a time.
Please in no way consider this a slam on the bard class, because I ABSOLUTELY love what you've done with it. I just wanted to compile some o f my experience with the class so that you can determine if further revisions to the class should be made.
In addition, to return to the "accompany" focus of the thread, I have personally never seen accompany make a significant enough difference in the bard song to warrant a group leader bringing a second bard over _any_ other class. However, based on the description you gave of how accompany works, the reason we as players don't see a difference hardly at all with accompany as without is that we don't sing the songs long enough to reach the maxes as it is, much less the improved maxes with accompany factored in. So the changes you proposed should be definitely immediately visible.
Also, would you consider re-arranging the caps on some of the roguish skills given to bards? I regularly miss MANY backstabs even on paraed mobs, and hit a circle once in a blue moon at level 40. And I think I spend longer trying to sneak and hide than Cherzra does trying to search something out. The biggest annoyance with these skills is that they are not (intended this way?) reliable whatsoever. For an example, bard sneak is basically unusable unless attempting to "twink" something, because it caps too low to avoid being left behind when following someone.
Anyways, catch me in-game sometime if you'd like to discuss further.
-Zameru -=Noisemaker=-
------------------
-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
I have to say I agree 100% with Xebes. I love what youve done with the class itchy.
My biggest pet peeve (well 2) is that when switching songs or stopping songs to cast, the delay is soooooo long.
There is an innate delay built in to singing anyway, since the first verse takes time to hit once you do start singing. Add this to the 'you are not composed enuf' and its just forever. It makes the bard alot less versatile in groups with switching songs.
Also the time between stopping singing and being able to cast, same deal.
And the bard rogue skill thing, same deal. Bards will never replace rogues, I think it was just being over cautious to set the skills too low, which is understandable, maybe it will change now that we see how bards are falling into place.
But I really love the class. Awesome work!
------------------
Snurgt take no prisoner.
My biggest pet peeve (well 2) is that when switching songs or stopping songs to cast, the delay is soooooo long.
There is an innate delay built in to singing anyway, since the first verse takes time to hit once you do start singing. Add this to the 'you are not composed enuf' and its just forever. It makes the bard alot less versatile in groups with switching songs.
Also the time between stopping singing and being able to cast, same deal.
And the bard rogue skill thing, same deal. Bards will never replace rogues, I think it was just being over cautious to set the skills too low, which is understandable, maybe it will change now that we see how bards are falling into place.
But I really love the class. Awesome work!
------------------
Snurgt take no prisoner.
Ok i did some averages...on song of offensive harmony (I have 99 melee songs, 99 drums) with a 40 bchanter accompanying me i average +2hit +1dam better. So basically for adding another bard to the group we get an additional 2hit 1dam..seems like any other class on the mud would be more useful than a second bard.
Another thing that is kind of annoying is that you need two bards/battlechanters to do accompany which makes it pretty time consuming and difficult to notch the skill. Maybe both the person being accompanied and the person doing the accompanying could have a chance to have the skill go up? its tough to get someone to sit somewhere for hours so you can accompany them
Another thing that is kind of annoying is that you need two bards/battlechanters to do accompany which makes it pretty time consuming and difficult to notch the skill. Maybe both the person being accompanied and the person doing the accompanying could have a chance to have the skill go up? its tough to get someone to sit somewhere for hours so you can accompany them
-
Guest
Here's the issue with the delay: If you start singing, it takes about a round for the song to go off... so for a song like harming... you could sing, wait for a verse, stop, start again and a round later you get another verse....
This leads to all sorts of possible cheese. It's currently set up so you can get a verse back up in the same amount of time it would take if you sang the same song... but of course some of the songs have continuous effects, so it's got a penalty to it.
This leads to all sorts of possible cheese. It's currently set up so you can get a verse back up in the same amount of time it would take if you sang the same song... but of course some of the songs have continuous effects, so it's got a penalty to it.
-
Guest
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Allycis:
<B>Ok i did some averages...on song of offensive harmony (I have 99 melee songs, 99 drums) with a 40 bchanter accompanying me i average +2hit +1dam better. So basically for adding another bard to the group we get an additional 2hit 1dam..seems like any other class on the mud would be more useful than a second bard.
Another thing that is kind of annoying is that you need two bards/battlechanters to do accompany which makes it pretty time consuming and difficult to notch the skill. Maybe both the person being accompanied and the person doing the accompanying could have a chance to have the skill go up? its tough to get someone to sit somewhere for hours so you can accompany them</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So... let's take that as an example. It gives +2/+1. And what was your average as an individual bard? Did you get haste say 70% of the time without the accompaniment, and say 90% of the time with?
<B>Ok i did some averages...on song of offensive harmony (I have 99 melee songs, 99 drums) with a 40 bchanter accompanying me i average +2hit +1dam better. So basically for adding another bard to the group we get an additional 2hit 1dam..seems like any other class on the mud would be more useful than a second bard.
Another thing that is kind of annoying is that you need two bards/battlechanters to do accompany which makes it pretty time consuming and difficult to notch the skill. Maybe both the person being accompanied and the person doing the accompanying could have a chance to have the skill go up? its tough to get someone to sit somewhere for hours so you can accompany them</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So... let's take that as an example. It gives +2/+1. And what was your average as an individual bard? Did you get haste say 70% of the time without the accompaniment, and say 90% of the time with?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Iyachtu:
<B>OK, there's some mass confusion here. Lemme give ya a little peek into it (without giving out too much info).
1. The song affects are not set amounts. You won't always get +6/+3 until your skill nothces some more, for instance.
2. Each verse of the song there's a check for the quality of the song. It rolls some dice, based on the skill of the bard(s) to determine how effective the particular verse will be.
3. Your skill in the category of song is the prime determinant, with bonuses for your instrument skill and accompany. Each of them is done as a die roll, but it's not done as 1 - skill level, it's designed to give a more consistent result than that. Accompany was changed to have an increased affect in comparison to the instrument skill a coupla weeks ago.
4. Each one of those elements is a die roll, which means at the high end, you'll *usually* get a fairly average result.
5. Accompany raises the maximum result for each of the songs, in addition to adding to the 'quality' of the song.
So... what can happen is that is you compare ONE verse without accompany with ONE verse with accompany (assuming the person accompanying is good at accompany) you could see this exact scenario. However, if you take the time to track your results (you could do this at fountain) and get your averages, you'll find that with accompany you'll get better averages and higher maxes.
However, if the accompanying bard has a very low skill, there won't be a large difference (though the first bard has his cap raised, so he could get results that are higher than he normally sees).
Also, keep in mind that if the bard that's accompanying has a low skill in the particular song, it won't be very effective.
I think I may have found a reason for accompany not notching that quickly (having to do with notching the song that's being sung first thus preventing the skill notch right afterwards), but it only has an affect if you're still notching the song you're singing (and successfully, at that).
[This message has been edited by Iyachtu (edited 11-15-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
pokemon i think you can make it more complicated
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Her Royal Bitchness Eye Aeturnum
<B>OK, there's some mass confusion here. Lemme give ya a little peek into it (without giving out too much info).
1. The song affects are not set amounts. You won't always get +6/+3 until your skill nothces some more, for instance.
2. Each verse of the song there's a check for the quality of the song. It rolls some dice, based on the skill of the bard(s) to determine how effective the particular verse will be.
3. Your skill in the category of song is the prime determinant, with bonuses for your instrument skill and accompany. Each of them is done as a die roll, but it's not done as 1 - skill level, it's designed to give a more consistent result than that. Accompany was changed to have an increased affect in comparison to the instrument skill a coupla weeks ago.
4. Each one of those elements is a die roll, which means at the high end, you'll *usually* get a fairly average result.
5. Accompany raises the maximum result for each of the songs, in addition to adding to the 'quality' of the song.
So... what can happen is that is you compare ONE verse without accompany with ONE verse with accompany (assuming the person accompanying is good at accompany) you could see this exact scenario. However, if you take the time to track your results (you could do this at fountain) and get your averages, you'll find that with accompany you'll get better averages and higher maxes.
However, if the accompanying bard has a very low skill, there won't be a large difference (though the first bard has his cap raised, so he could get results that are higher than he normally sees).
Also, keep in mind that if the bard that's accompanying has a low skill in the particular song, it won't be very effective.
I think I may have found a reason for accompany not notching that quickly (having to do with notching the song that's being sung first thus preventing the skill notch right afterwards), but it only has an affect if you're still notching the song you're singing (and successfully, at that).
[This message has been edited by Iyachtu (edited 11-15-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
pokemon i think you can make it more complicated
------------------
Her Royal Bitchness Eye Aeturnum
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