The Bronze Citadel gear discussion kinda sparked my interest, but I didn't want to hijack it so I made my own thread.
As it stands, there is rarely a new zone that doesn't get criticism for risk versus reward. New items aren't really that new, the upgrades often so menial that only the best of the number crunchers and calculators would be able to use to a decent advantage the +1 or +2 here and there.
I know this came about because in the past area makers made bigger and badder weapons and gear to the point of superhero proportions, but has the restrictions in effect castrated the new areamakers?
In the not too near future, if areamakers consistently pump out zones, eventually everything will have the same abilities, and the only difference will be ansi.
As it stands, there is no rating system for zones except what level you should go. Many zones are harder than others, and many of the harder zones contain a very small reward for the huge amount of trouble, while others with a very little amount of trouble have none.
The solution in the past has been to downgrade the items of the easier zones, to make the existing items in the harder zones better. It seems the idea of upgrading the items in the harder zones or adding more has never been a valid idea, nor has it been practiced.
Why not compile a list of items, rating them all worst to best, and then rate the zones, easiest to hardest, and assign the items that way?... honestly, a zone like jot that has the potential to yield SO much while being fairly easy, while a zone like avernus, the hells, takes forever for 4 items that add a bit and piece here and there.
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Ensis Inferni
Bish Enterprises Inc.
All Rights Reserved
Copyright 1999 Fydollaho Productions.
Gear, Risk VS Reward, Area restrictions
Personally I really like the idea of doubling hit/dam on items and players' base stats, and then dividing by two when the actual combat calculation takes place. This gives area makers twice as many options.
Example: a sword is now 2/2. With the changes, it will be 4/4. The player wields only it, and wears nothing else. His base hit/dam was 5/5, and is now 10/10. Total before: 7/7. Total now: 14/14. So you see the division by two. However: this also allows area makers to (for example) use 0/6, 1/5, 2/4, 3/3, 4/2, 5/1 6/0 instead of just 0/3, 1/2, 2/1 and 3/0. This allows for much more options.
Second idea: add a third field for items. You can only give an object two attributes now. If you could add a third, there are a lot more options.
Changing or downgrading all current items is no solution. The upper limit merely changes, objects for new zones still have the same problem whether they have to compete with a +2dam +15hp diamondine or +2dam +10hp diamondine.
I like the first option the best. It opens up a lot of new options.
As for caster eq, that is much less problematic than hitter eq. Hitter eq is hit/dam while caster eq usually has hp and something else (i.e. lots of choice), which allows a lot more options.
Example: a sword is now 2/2. With the changes, it will be 4/4. The player wields only it, and wears nothing else. His base hit/dam was 5/5, and is now 10/10. Total before: 7/7. Total now: 14/14. So you see the division by two. However: this also allows area makers to (for example) use 0/6, 1/5, 2/4, 3/3, 4/2, 5/1 6/0 instead of just 0/3, 1/2, 2/1 and 3/0. This allows for much more options.
Second idea: add a third field for items. You can only give an object two attributes now. If you could add a third, there are a lot more options.
Changing or downgrading all current items is no solution. The upper limit merely changes, objects for new zones still have the same problem whether they have to compete with a +2dam +15hp diamondine or +2dam +10hp diamondine.
I like the first option the best. It opens up a lot of new options.
As for caster eq, that is much less problematic than hitter eq. Hitter eq is hit/dam while caster eq usually has hp and something else (i.e. lots of choice), which allows a lot more options.
I like the idea of random stats on items.
Kinda like seeing what loads in ET. There are more reasons to go then. You know something is going to load you just don't know what.
Also, I would like to see zones with quest mobs that are specific for certain classes. So if you have a bard in your group you can do the bard quest but if you don't have the bard you can't do it. If you then make the EQ that the bard quest gives spanky you are going to have a new call for bards to be in the group.
Same thing can be done for rangers, etc.
The other thing that can be done is to make items that increase the players skills. This would open up a whole new area for eq that is not used today.
How much would a bracer of magic be coveted if it increased your meditation skill +2? Or if it increased your quick chant +1?
How about a ring for a shaman that increased your summoned pets HPs by 10%? You would have to continue to wear it or the spirit loses 15% of the hps.
Or one that increased your double attack or circle skill for a rogue?
How about a shield that increases shield block skill?
Make them +max_skill
How
Kinda like seeing what loads in ET. There are more reasons to go then. You know something is going to load you just don't know what.
Also, I would like to see zones with quest mobs that are specific for certain classes. So if you have a bard in your group you can do the bard quest but if you don't have the bard you can't do it. If you then make the EQ that the bard quest gives spanky you are going to have a new call for bards to be in the group.
Same thing can be done for rangers, etc.
The other thing that can be done is to make items that increase the players skills. This would open up a whole new area for eq that is not used today.
How much would a bracer of magic be coveted if it increased your meditation skill +2? Or if it increased your quick chant +1?
How about a ring for a shaman that increased your summoned pets HPs by 10%? You would have to continue to wear it or the spirit loses 15% of the hps.
Or one that increased your double attack or circle skill for a rogue?
How about a shield that increases shield block skill?
Make them +max_skill
How
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ensis:
<B>In the not too near future, if areamakers consistently pump out zones, eventually everything will have the same abilities, and the only difference will be ansi.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Considering that many have campaigned long and hard for this, I think this is what we're going to get.
The more uber the zone, the more uber the ansi.
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Kiaransalee responds to your petition with 'look on the bright side, I just saved you some corpses. We all know you would have gotten spanked'
<B>In the not too near future, if areamakers consistently pump out zones, eventually everything will have the same abilities, and the only difference will be ansi.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Considering that many have campaigned long and hard for this, I think this is what we're going to get.
The more uber the zone, the more uber the ansi.
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Kiaransalee responds to your petition with 'look on the bright side, I just saved you some corpses. We all know you would have gotten spanked'
you dont need to downgrade everything. In reality theres only a few items that need downgrading, the ones that everyone uses but are simple to get. Amethyst ring is just way too easy to get considering everyone and their mother wears them. Orb from ET, better than nebula, joke to get. Earrings from ET...you all already know
Just look around, and pick out the eq that EVERYONE is wearing. Thats the eq that needs downgrading.
What i personally believe is that theres more to eq than basic stats, in fact there are things that make some eq infinitely more valuable than other eq, and that is abilities. I wear an infra item. Theres plenty of stuff with better stats, and without infra this item would be a peice of junk, but infra is infinitely more valuable than the other things i could gain in this equipment slot. What would you give up to have a peice of eq you could wear all the time that was perm sense life? I guess its different for casters, but i would give up a ton. Hell i wear a raven eyepatch alot anyways, if it was a raven eyepatch that was also +2 hit, id wear it all the time, and id spend a ton of time and effort to go get it. Nosummon got the axe, but theres plenty of other things that can make eq superior. Detect magic? Detect invisible? Giving out abilities like this is taboo, it seems, but i see little reason. A perm di item just either saves me 20p, or saves me an annoyance tell to a caster in the group. What about a quiver that gives +1 hit, thats not just for rangers. Call it a scabbard. +4 con maybe(grovel)? Remember how popular miner's badges were? How about armor that can cast armor on yourself? Giving first and second circle caster spells out on items doesn't really hurt the casters much, but means the world to people who cant cast them. Its just a little extra something, that you cant get anywhere else, that makes an item really uber. If anyone has any feedback on why this either wasnt considered, or was considered and dismissed, id love to hear it. These are the kind of items i would expect to find at the end of the hardest zone around.
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Thanuk Pantherclaw
Just look around, and pick out the eq that EVERYONE is wearing. Thats the eq that needs downgrading.
What i personally believe is that theres more to eq than basic stats, in fact there are things that make some eq infinitely more valuable than other eq, and that is abilities. I wear an infra item. Theres plenty of stuff with better stats, and without infra this item would be a peice of junk, but infra is infinitely more valuable than the other things i could gain in this equipment slot. What would you give up to have a peice of eq you could wear all the time that was perm sense life? I guess its different for casters, but i would give up a ton. Hell i wear a raven eyepatch alot anyways, if it was a raven eyepatch that was also +2 hit, id wear it all the time, and id spend a ton of time and effort to go get it. Nosummon got the axe, but theres plenty of other things that can make eq superior. Detect magic? Detect invisible? Giving out abilities like this is taboo, it seems, but i see little reason. A perm di item just either saves me 20p, or saves me an annoyance tell to a caster in the group. What about a quiver that gives +1 hit, thats not just for rangers. Call it a scabbard. +4 con maybe(grovel)? Remember how popular miner's badges were? How about armor that can cast armor on yourself? Giving first and second circle caster spells out on items doesn't really hurt the casters much, but means the world to people who cant cast them. Its just a little extra something, that you cant get anywhere else, that makes an item really uber. If anyone has any feedback on why this either wasnt considered, or was considered and dismissed, id love to hear it. These are the kind of items i would expect to find at the end of the hardest zone around.
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Thanuk Pantherclaw
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B>i cant name 1 DI item, and i can only think of 1 DM item that melee players would use, the gaunts from meleich. These were the two i was referring to as taboo, sorry if it wasnt clear.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can think of 3 DI items that aren't tiamat, although I don't know if they're warrior-able.
Sylvos
<B>i cant name 1 DI item, and i can only think of 1 DM item that melee players would use, the gaunts from meleich. These were the two i was referring to as taboo, sorry if it wasnt clear.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can think of 3 DI items that aren't tiamat, although I don't know if they're warrior-able.
Sylvos
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sylvos:
<B> I can think of 3 DI items that aren't tiamat, although I don't know if they're warrior-able.
Sylvos
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know one which is semi-common and I think all warriors in my guild has one, and wear it
And then there's a similarly named one, but that is !warrior.
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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
<B> I can think of 3 DI items that aren't tiamat, although I don't know if they're warrior-able.
Sylvos
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know one which is semi-common and I think all warriors in my guild has one, and wear it
And then there's a similarly named one, but that is !warrior.
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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B>Orb from ET, better than nebula, joke to get.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The only way it's better than nebula is the ansi, otherwise, the stats are identical. Plus, this orb is harder to get than a nebula.
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-Yayaril
<B>Orb from ET, better than nebula, joke to get.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The only way it's better than nebula is the ansi, otherwise, the stats are identical. Plus, this orb is harder to get than a nebula.
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-Yayaril
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Ilshadrial
- Sojourner
- Posts: 417
- Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Atlanta
- Contact:
Honestly what would be the problem with 1st and 2nd circle spells being used like this? However, I would like to point out that I never thought detect invis should be obtained that quickly. Invis should be a pretty cool spell instead of something that every mob and their brother can have (either innate or casted).
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Marforp / Sasdor
and now the new improved Pofas!!
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Marforp / Sasdor
and now the new improved Pofas!!
Heh i know what item your talking about jegzed now that i think about it, but i would hardly call it semi-common. As for the orb nebula thing, even if they are the same, im not a caster but it always seemed people wanted the ET orb over nebula. But id rather do all of ET then do archie, maybe thats just me. As for DI and invisible being a good spell, maybe it should be, but it isnt currently. Its more of an annoyance really. But my point is if you put these kind of effects on an item with decent stats otherwise, so they can be worn all the time, it becomes a really good item.
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Thanuk Pantherclaw
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Thanuk Pantherclaw
can we get more diversity in eq too? tired of getting earrings over and over again. notice how most wear eldritchs, ogrehides, falcons, roots belt, 1k headband, starsilver sleeves, and silver bands.
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Nokie group-says 'what a rip-off, I spend months incapacitating navy seamen and doing 28,000 bandages and now we get tons of practice here in bronze citadel'
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Nokie group-says 'what a rip-off, I spend months incapacitating navy seamen and doing 28,000 bandages and now we get tons of practice here in bronze citadel'
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalar:
<B>can we get more diversity in eq too? tired of getting earrings over and over again. notice how most wear eldritchs, ogrehides, falcons, roots belt, 1k headband, starsilver sleeves, and silver bands.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Completely agree! I would love to see some more stylized Eq out there for shaman (cause its all about the shaman!). Maybe a totem that equals a nebula. Perhaps a piece of the holy relic of thrym (yes I made that up) that is clericable and equals a nebula.
Maybe a ring of animal control that = eldritch. Perhaps a small tattoo of a bear (worn on finger) that equals an eldritch.
How about a string of flowers that is equal to a Adamantium neckguard (druid anyone?)
There are lots of different things that can be done to make the eq on people unique without having to increase the stats.
Meilich is a good example of a zone that gives some nice items and a few restrung items that are +style.
ET is another example of the same.
<B>can we get more diversity in eq too? tired of getting earrings over and over again. notice how most wear eldritchs, ogrehides, falcons, roots belt, 1k headband, starsilver sleeves, and silver bands.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Completely agree! I would love to see some more stylized Eq out there for shaman (cause its all about the shaman!). Maybe a totem that equals a nebula. Perhaps a piece of the holy relic of thrym (yes I made that up) that is clericable and equals a nebula.
Maybe a ring of animal control that = eldritch. Perhaps a small tattoo of a bear (worn on finger) that equals an eldritch.
How about a string of flowers that is equal to a Adamantium neckguard (druid anyone?)
There are lots of different things that can be done to make the eq on people unique without having to increase the stats.
Meilich is a good example of a zone that gives some nice items and a few restrung items that are +style.
ET is another example of the same.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by old depok:
<B> Completely agree! I would love to see some more stylized Eq out there for shaman (cause its all about the shaman!). Maybe a totem that equals a nebula. Perhaps a piece of the holy relic of thrym (yes I made that up) that is clericable and equals a nebula.
Maybe a ring of animal control that = eldritch. Perhaps a small tattoo of a bear (worn on finger) that equals an eldritch.
How about a string of flowers that is equal to a Adamantium neckguard (druid anyone?)
There are lots of different things that can be done to make the eq on people unique without having to increase the stats.
Meilich is a good example of a zone that gives some nice items and a few restrung items that are +style.
ET is another example of the same.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Those are some good ideas.
Let's hope that people are willing to do the zones to get the newer ansi.
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Kiaransalee responds to your petition with 'look on the bright side, I just saved you some corpses. We all know you would have gotten spanked'
<B> Completely agree! I would love to see some more stylized Eq out there for shaman (cause its all about the shaman!). Maybe a totem that equals a nebula. Perhaps a piece of the holy relic of thrym (yes I made that up) that is clericable and equals a nebula.
Maybe a ring of animal control that = eldritch. Perhaps a small tattoo of a bear (worn on finger) that equals an eldritch.
How about a string of flowers that is equal to a Adamantium neckguard (druid anyone?)
There are lots of different things that can be done to make the eq on people unique without having to increase the stats.
Meilich is a good example of a zone that gives some nice items and a few restrung items that are +style.
ET is another example of the same.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Those are some good ideas.
Let's hope that people are willing to do the zones to get the newer ansi.
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Kiaransalee responds to your petition with 'look on the bright side, I just saved you some corpses. We all know you would have gotten spanked'
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B> Those are some good ideas.
Let's hope that people are willing to do the zones to get the newer ansi.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If there are some newer items in the zone as well they will. Doesn't have to be anything that great. Meilich is the bard cloak and spell book if I recall and ET has the earrings and the bag and tankard but those aren't exactly uber (not even counting the ranger quiver).
The point is that there are plenty of things that could be added that would be nice and don't have to be spanky.
Couple more:
Glowing Runed Backpack:
item type: quiver
Can effect you by +1 max_int, summon para elemental 1 X week
Container: Can hold 100 pounds
Mage only
Holy Water Vial:
Item Type: Quiver
+1 Max_wis
Water placed in Vial becomes blessed
Cleric only
Shrunken Skull of a Cloud Giant:
Item type quiver
+1 max_wis
Casts infravision once per day.
Holds 100 pounds
Shaman only :>)
Scabard made of Silver Thread
Item Type Quiver
+1 hit, twice per day casts Armor
Warrior only
Scabard made of Spider Thread
Item type quiver
+1 dam, twice a day apply poison (cause serious)
Rogue only
Etc.
I know I would run to that zone for my Shrunken Head!
<B> Those are some good ideas.
Let's hope that people are willing to do the zones to get the newer ansi.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If there are some newer items in the zone as well they will. Doesn't have to be anything that great. Meilich is the bard cloak and spell book if I recall and ET has the earrings and the bag and tankard but those aren't exactly uber (not even counting the ranger quiver).
The point is that there are plenty of things that could be added that would be nice and don't have to be spanky.
Couple more:
Glowing Runed Backpack:
item type: quiver
Can effect you by +1 max_int, summon para elemental 1 X week
Container: Can hold 100 pounds
Mage only
Holy Water Vial:
Item Type: Quiver
+1 Max_wis
Water placed in Vial becomes blessed
Cleric only
Shrunken Skull of a Cloud Giant:
Item type quiver
+1 max_wis
Casts infravision once per day.
Holds 100 pounds
Shaman only :>)
Scabard made of Silver Thread
Item Type Quiver
+1 hit, twice per day casts Armor
Warrior only
Scabard made of Spider Thread
Item type quiver
+1 dam, twice a day apply poison (cause serious)
Rogue only
Etc.
I know I would run to that zone for my Shrunken Head!
-
Guest
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by old depok:
<B> Completely agree! I would love to see some more stylized Eq out there for shaman (cause its all about the shaman!). Maybe a totem that equals a nebula. Perhaps a piece of the holy relic of thrym (yes I made that up) that is clericable and equals a nebula.
Maybe a ring of animal control that = eldritch. Perhaps a small tattoo of a bear (worn on finger) that equals an eldritch.
How about a string of flowers that is equal to a Adamantium neckguard (druid anyone?)
There are lots of different things that can be done to make the eq on people unique without having to increase the stats.
Meilich is a good example of a zone that gives some nice items and a few restrung items that are +style.
ET is another example of the same.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OK, one issue you need to remember if that were to happen (and its happened on quite a few occasions.) You guys will do which ever is easier, and the old one becomes obsolete. It happens all the time. The second something thats the same gets put in, ansi be damned, if its easier to get, thats what you do. You all claim to want 'style' for your chars, but there is lots of eq out there with stats quite simular, with different style ansi, and you don't wear it. You wear power gear and easy to get.
Shrug, think about it.
-Garg
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Gargauth the Outcast
<B> Completely agree! I would love to see some more stylized Eq out there for shaman (cause its all about the shaman!). Maybe a totem that equals a nebula. Perhaps a piece of the holy relic of thrym (yes I made that up) that is clericable and equals a nebula.
Maybe a ring of animal control that = eldritch. Perhaps a small tattoo of a bear (worn on finger) that equals an eldritch.
How about a string of flowers that is equal to a Adamantium neckguard (druid anyone?)
There are lots of different things that can be done to make the eq on people unique without having to increase the stats.
Meilich is a good example of a zone that gives some nice items and a few restrung items that are +style.
ET is another example of the same.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OK, one issue you need to remember if that were to happen (and its happened on quite a few occasions.) You guys will do which ever is easier, and the old one becomes obsolete. It happens all the time. The second something thats the same gets put in, ansi be damned, if its easier to get, thats what you do. You all claim to want 'style' for your chars, but there is lots of eq out there with stats quite simular, with different style ansi, and you don't wear it. You wear power gear and easy to get.
Shrug, think about it.
-Garg
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Gargauth the Outcast
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Tanji Smanji
- Sojourner
- Posts: 765
- Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2002 5:01 am
- Location: Atlanta, Georgia
I know another mud I used to play on had this, and some other things. It was pretty basic. You'd get x-item and a certain %load worldloading mob would quest x-item into something more specific to your class. Another mob would quest common and highly used items into something new. They made it restring based on the season, each season the mob would quest x-item into 1 of 4 different things based on the current season. Same item, same stats just new ansi. Gave a real sense of style for hardly any work.
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How to go from Waelos to Weylarii.
Weylarii group-says 'oh shit! my penis is stuck in the toaster. afk'
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How to go from Waelos to Weylarii.
Weylarii group-says 'oh shit! my penis is stuck in the toaster. afk'
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by old depok:
<B> If there are some newer items in the zone as well they will. Doesn't have to be anything that great. Meilich is the bard cloak and spell book if I recall and ET has the earrings and the bag and tankard but those aren't exactly uber (not even counting the ranger quiver).
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
are you on crack? ET has the best earrings in game for the easiest work hands down.
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Nokie group-says 'what a rip-off, I spend months incapacitating navy seamen and doing 28,000 bandages and now we get tons of practice here in bronze citadel'
<B> If there are some newer items in the zone as well they will. Doesn't have to be anything that great. Meilich is the bard cloak and spell book if I recall and ET has the earrings and the bag and tankard but those aren't exactly uber (not even counting the ranger quiver).
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
are you on crack? ET has the best earrings in game for the easiest work hands down.
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Nokie group-says 'what a rip-off, I spend months incapacitating navy seamen and doing 28,000 bandages and now we get tons of practice here in bronze citadel'
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gargamel:
<B>
OK, one issue you need to remember if that were to happen (and its happened on quite a few occasions.) You guys will do which ever is easier, and the old one becomes obsolete. It happens all the time. The second something thats the same gets put in, ansi be damned, if its easier to get, thats what you do. You all claim to want 'style' for your chars, but there is lots of eq out there with stats quite simular, with different style ansi, and you don't wear it. You wear power gear and easy to get.
Shrug, think about it.
-Garg
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Regardless of what anyone says, we all know this is true. I can't speak for everyone on anything else, but i personally also accept that there is a certain point where eq cant get any better using the usual standards we have. There has to be a ceiling on how many hps 1 ring can give, how much damroll an earring can give, etc, and at this point we are pretty much at that limit. So zones are always getting harder, but you dont have a lot of wiggle room to make the eq better. Corths equation is perfect as far as i can tell.
Reward=time+risk=balance
Time+risk keeps getting higher, and rewards really cant keep up, because you cant have 100 hps rings and 5 damroll earrings. There has to be another way to make the reward better. I suggest adding abilities and spells to equipment. Id like to hear what everyone else thinks would be a good way to increase rewards, aside from more hps/hitdam/saves/prots. Style has been mentioned, but its not gonna cut it by itself. Tanji also had a good idea, about questing eq to make it more suited to your class, etc. So me and tanji both have 1 point, and the rest of you bums have 0.
Get brainstorming and come up with ideas on how to make eq better without just juicing the same stuff.
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Thanuk Pantherclaw
<B>
OK, one issue you need to remember if that were to happen (and its happened on quite a few occasions.) You guys will do which ever is easier, and the old one becomes obsolete. It happens all the time. The second something thats the same gets put in, ansi be damned, if its easier to get, thats what you do. You all claim to want 'style' for your chars, but there is lots of eq out there with stats quite simular, with different style ansi, and you don't wear it. You wear power gear and easy to get.
Shrug, think about it.
-Garg
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Regardless of what anyone says, we all know this is true. I can't speak for everyone on anything else, but i personally also accept that there is a certain point where eq cant get any better using the usual standards we have. There has to be a ceiling on how many hps 1 ring can give, how much damroll an earring can give, etc, and at this point we are pretty much at that limit. So zones are always getting harder, but you dont have a lot of wiggle room to make the eq better. Corths equation is perfect as far as i can tell.
Reward=time+risk=balance
Time+risk keeps getting higher, and rewards really cant keep up, because you cant have 100 hps rings and 5 damroll earrings. There has to be another way to make the reward better. I suggest adding abilities and spells to equipment. Id like to hear what everyone else thinks would be a good way to increase rewards, aside from more hps/hitdam/saves/prots. Style has been mentioned, but its not gonna cut it by itself. Tanji also had a good idea, about questing eq to make it more suited to your class, etc. So me and tanji both have 1 point, and the rest of you bums have 0.
Get brainstorming and come up with ideas on how to make eq better without just juicing the same stuff.
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Thanuk Pantherclaw
vault should be downgraded, and mobs all nerfed so that a group of level 30's could get the eq . . . BUT, we all know damn well that the result would be a group of 2 or 3 level 50's would smite vault on boot and hoard the equipment for sink quests and alts.
so, with the fact that we all confess to being twinks a given, we accept that the only purpose for non level 50 zones is to level our alts as quickly as possible.
a LOT of current eq is too powerful for how easy it is to get. Including most of the eq i wear. Orb of Might = Nebula? Eww, not even. Psilk eyepatch? Amy rings? Elemental Control Rings? I think Eldritches could deal with a *slight* nerf.
i would like to see airship style of questing implemented into XP zones for levelers, too. Spice up BGR, Ship, DS xp just a bit. Maybe can get a *bump* for HP, IC and to a lesser extent tower? Add a little bit of questing to experience, to help lower level players get used to it early on, as well as earn rewards appropriate to the level/difficulty of the equipment and character. (see corth's equation, eh?)
while twinking will be an issue i am sure, maybe include if/then variables regarding character level, prestige, etc so that people who attempt to twink an item will have less chance of getting it to *pop* - because the equipment load should be done at mob death. (watch out for pet kills). we can include trophy as a check, too - the higher the trophy on a given mob, the more likely it will be to pop upon death. however, this number should be capped . . . just in case.
Again, the questing different eq/ansii for different classes in these situations is just awesome. No need to worry about people getting eq that they can't use, because with custom tailored quests, it won't be possible! (shouldn't be, in theory)
so, with the fact that we all confess to being twinks a given, we accept that the only purpose for non level 50 zones is to level our alts as quickly as possible.
a LOT of current eq is too powerful for how easy it is to get. Including most of the eq i wear. Orb of Might = Nebula? Eww, not even. Psilk eyepatch? Amy rings? Elemental Control Rings? I think Eldritches could deal with a *slight* nerf.
i would like to see airship style of questing implemented into XP zones for levelers, too. Spice up BGR, Ship, DS xp just a bit. Maybe can get a *bump* for HP, IC and to a lesser extent tower? Add a little bit of questing to experience, to help lower level players get used to it early on, as well as earn rewards appropriate to the level/difficulty of the equipment and character. (see corth's equation, eh?)
while twinking will be an issue i am sure, maybe include if/then variables regarding character level, prestige, etc so that people who attempt to twink an item will have less chance of getting it to *pop* - because the equipment load should be done at mob death. (watch out for pet kills). we can include trophy as a check, too - the higher the trophy on a given mob, the more likely it will be to pop upon death. however, this number should be capped . . . just in case.
Again, the questing different eq/ansii for different classes in these situations is just awesome. No need to worry about people getting eq that they can't use, because with custom tailored quests, it won't be possible! (shouldn't be, in theory)
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Dugmaren
- Staff Member - Areas
- Posts: 554
- Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Vancouver, Canada
Groan. Alright, making a HUGE batch of popcorn before replying. I raised this question to gods earlier and it was answered with mixed results, as such no real change to the equipment power policy has been placed because its easier to not change, then to change, realize its all wrong and try to change back. But;
I'd like to know the general concensus on where we should be going with areas. Lately, zones are getting bigger, and nastier, and expect to give out bigger and better rewards. So, given 2 options here, tell me what ya think.
Assume Equipment power ranges 1-10 (tia being 11)
Assume Zone difficulty ranges 1-10+
1. We maintain a cap on equipment power at 10, and allow zone difficulty to be whatever the area maker wants.
(note making a difficulty 15 zone would STILL only reward power 10 items)
The problem with this is players never do the zone cuz its just not worth it, they can get equivalent equipment somewhere easier. The benefit is we don't suddenly see insane equipment escalation and everyone rolling the easier zones with 4 people. (yes I know a bunch of us have done this, I meant regularly). If we go with this we might be able to tweak certain zones of items to be more "balanced".
2. Remove cap on both. You can have 100hp rings, but they better come from 6 dragon fights. Further more I don't mean a ring that's twice as hard to get but 77hps instead of 75 :P. This causes another tier of zone power to show up, and makes high end zones like scorps & clouds a "stepping stone" to the new ones, just like jot was to scorps.
Note you will all start complaining about how jot invasion equipment is crap, and you DESPISE dragons in zones, and this zone is WAY too unfair bla bla (I'm lazy but I'm sure Todrael could find like 15 posts on it)
Iincreases the power gap which makes any future balance that much worse, and furthers equipment inflation so even more powerful equipment will be filtering round. (of course we can also put in quests that require a twilight, 3 eldritchs and 2 flaming earrings etc).
Of course if everyone gets wacky powerful, player classes and spells might start getting downgraded to compensate, or mob skills upgraded.
So,
1. risk vs. reward
2. leave the cap, adjust the zones
Dug
I'd like to know the general concensus on where we should be going with areas. Lately, zones are getting bigger, and nastier, and expect to give out bigger and better rewards. So, given 2 options here, tell me what ya think.
Assume Equipment power ranges 1-10 (tia being 11)
Assume Zone difficulty ranges 1-10+
1. We maintain a cap on equipment power at 10, and allow zone difficulty to be whatever the area maker wants.
(note making a difficulty 15 zone would STILL only reward power 10 items)
The problem with this is players never do the zone cuz its just not worth it, they can get equivalent equipment somewhere easier. The benefit is we don't suddenly see insane equipment escalation and everyone rolling the easier zones with 4 people. (yes I know a bunch of us have done this, I meant regularly). If we go with this we might be able to tweak certain zones of items to be more "balanced".
2. Remove cap on both. You can have 100hp rings, but they better come from 6 dragon fights. Further more I don't mean a ring that's twice as hard to get but 77hps instead of 75 :P. This causes another tier of zone power to show up, and makes high end zones like scorps & clouds a "stepping stone" to the new ones, just like jot was to scorps.
Note you will all start complaining about how jot invasion equipment is crap, and you DESPISE dragons in zones, and this zone is WAY too unfair bla bla (I'm lazy but I'm sure Todrael could find like 15 posts on it)
Iincreases the power gap which makes any future balance that much worse, and furthers equipment inflation so even more powerful equipment will be filtering round. (of course we can also put in quests that require a twilight, 3 eldritchs and 2 flaming earrings etc).
Of course if everyone gets wacky powerful, player classes and spells might start getting downgraded to compensate, or mob skills upgraded.
So,
1. risk vs. reward
2. leave the cap, adjust the zones
Dug
I vote for option 2. I would like to see some extremely difficult zones that high level guilds can do and need to schedule around. Bronze citadel was a blast because I was much closer to the group then I would with just a daily TF group. In order to keep doing these zones, many high level players need a goal (ie better eq than they currently have) to aim for, so make more powerful eq.
Also, could you...
1. Go back and balance every high level zone and match difficulty with power level (Especially ET). While this sounds like a long and boring task, you could create a new forum called "Zone/Eq balance" and have players "assist" the gods. I know alot of us (including myself) share your vision of balance but you may get a good idea or two from us somewhere down the line
2. If res is going to continue to be the extremely long and tedious 10 minutes it already is, make !teleportable zones yield more eq or more powerful eq. While full spanks aren't common, a real full spank in a !teleport zone can cause alot of problems (risk) and should have a good reward to back it up.
3. Look at some quest eq that is more difficult to do than do a zone of equivalent power. While I still have the same two examples, there are plenty of other examples other players could think of: Prot all armor that's wholebody doesn't mean much in the era were prot eq is extremely easy to obtain. Eyeball earring is a +4 hp -1 sv petri -pfg +sense life takes weeks to do compared to ET pfg earring which is always done. I know I'm being annoying and repetitive on those items but I still think oakvale armor could use some hps or agi (something that you rarely see on an item.. hp + agi) and eyeball earring could yield an extra item that is powerlevel 8-10.
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Nokie group-says 'what a rip-off, I spend months incapacitating navy seamen and doing 28,000 bandages and now we get tons of practice here in bronze citadel'
Also, could you...
1. Go back and balance every high level zone and match difficulty with power level (Especially ET). While this sounds like a long and boring task, you could create a new forum called "Zone/Eq balance" and have players "assist" the gods. I know alot of us (including myself) share your vision of balance but you may get a good idea or two from us somewhere down the line
2. If res is going to continue to be the extremely long and tedious 10 minutes it already is, make !teleportable zones yield more eq or more powerful eq. While full spanks aren't common, a real full spank in a !teleport zone can cause alot of problems (risk) and should have a good reward to back it up.
3. Look at some quest eq that is more difficult to do than do a zone of equivalent power. While I still have the same two examples, there are plenty of other examples other players could think of: Prot all armor that's wholebody doesn't mean much in the era were prot eq is extremely easy to obtain. Eyeball earring is a +4 hp -1 sv petri -pfg +sense life takes weeks to do compared to ET pfg earring which is always done. I know I'm being annoying and repetitive on those items but I still think oakvale armor could use some hps or agi (something that you rarely see on an item.. hp + agi) and eyeball earring could yield an extra item that is powerlevel 8-10.
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Nokie group-says 'what a rip-off, I spend months incapacitating navy seamen and doing 28,000 bandages and now we get tons of practice here in bronze citadel'
dug.. its really simple. There is no option but risk + time = reward. anything else and you are correct, nobody will do it (see SF for the past few years before this wipe).
This doesnt mean that you can't have a cap. Just make sure your cap corresponds to the most difficult zone that can be done by 15 people.
As for the eq in existing zones and quests, the mud is long long overdue for a comprehensive review. Like thanuk says, take an extra good look at the items that EVERYBODY in a class/race combo wears. Amethyst rings are a good example.. wrist razors, eldritch rings. You get the picture. Its really time the gods stopped bitching about eq inflation and did something about it...
Corth
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Goddamned slippery mage.
This doesnt mean that you can't have a cap. Just make sure your cap corresponds to the most difficult zone that can be done by 15 people.
As for the eq in existing zones and quests, the mud is long long overdue for a comprehensive review. Like thanuk says, take an extra good look at the items that EVERYBODY in a class/race combo wears. Amethyst rings are a good example.. wrist razors, eldritch rings. You get the picture. Its really time the gods stopped bitching about eq inflation and did something about it...
Corth
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Goddamned slippery mage.
And this is the problem with gear orientent muds. To keep people happy (which is impossible) gear must have to get better and better or there is no reason to go after it. When I first started a trip to the vault was a big deal and one of the first things done after a boot. I don't think it's like that anymore. The problem with raising the gear levels all the time is people get too powerful. Eventually greater realms of protection will be a useless spell. It's too bad skills weren't more important those are really the only things that seperate characters.
Take a character who worked hard for his/her level then take one who's been power leveled, give them the same gear no one could tell the difference.
Make certain skill levels that will only go up when grouped, maybe attach a group number. To reach the next skill notch you have to be in a 15 person group instead of being able to notch it solo, yeah this will hurt rogues for sure, but at higher levels it's how it should be.
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So whad are we gonna do tonight Brain? Same thing we do everynight Pinky, TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!
Take a character who worked hard for his/her level then take one who's been power leveled, give them the same gear no one could tell the difference.
Make certain skill levels that will only go up when grouped, maybe attach a group number. To reach the next skill notch you have to be in a 15 person group instead of being able to notch it solo, yeah this will hurt rogues for sure, but at higher levels it's how it should be.
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So whad are we gonna do tonight Brain? Same thing we do everynight Pinky, TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!
There has to be a limit on how good one piece of eq can be. Furthermore, i think you guys have done an excellent job of recognizing that need, and recognizing exactly where that cap should be. But as the zones keep getting harder, the old zones just get easier in comparison. Brass is a perfect example. I remember going there waaay back when, a group of 15, assuming that you are going to spank, so much so that you already had 10 people lined up to come in behind you for the CR. And the reward for doing a zone like that was where it should be, you get the best ring in the game(at that time) and usable by everyone. But after all the newer and harder zones came pouring in, brass became a 45 minute stampede, and some of the eq got outdated. Flamberge once sold for 18k and was the best warrior weapon in the game. Now they give it to newbies. But as it should be, as a flamberge is just not that hard to get. But brass still has the best tanking ring in the game, and some damn good eq for casters, as well as one of the top fly items in the game. On a side note, it amuses me that it is easier to get griffon wings than it is to get the wholehead fly helm, that used to be a real midlevel eq run.
There has to be a ceiling on how powerful you can get. The problem is that You can hit that ceiling without having to do anything all that difficult, so there is little to gain, equipment wise, from doing the hardest zones. I'd have to say that old zones with badass eq have to be upgraded. Places like brass TF, vault, ET are too easy for the eq yield, when compared to the rewards you get in muspelhiem, clouds, or bronze citadel. By making the zones harder, you are in effect messing up the succession of the mud, as zones are changing levels of difficulty, and evolve the same way the mud did. Brass and jot were the baddest zones, then came scorps and clouds which were harder and still are, then came muspel and bronze citadel, etc etc. The trend in the past here has been to downgrade old eq. Myrranthea got pulled entirely, lusties got downgraded, lots of other stuff too. Id say the power of equipment as it stands is in the right place, although i would still like to see more abilities and such granted through equipment, but zones like TF which are like a 5 or less on the difficulty scale have level 10 eq in them. You could upgrade the zones, but that doesn't leave much room for people making new zones to have eq in them that merit going to get them. By downgrading the equipment, giving a level 5 zone like TF level 5 equipment as rewards, you open up the ranks a bit for new zones to come in that are 10+ difficulty to give level 10 eq as rewards that people actually need to go get if they want to have the best set of eq. So i say leave the cap, and downgrade existing equipment, thus creating room for newer, harder zones with better rewards.
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Thanuk Pantherclaw
There has to be a ceiling on how powerful you can get. The problem is that You can hit that ceiling without having to do anything all that difficult, so there is little to gain, equipment wise, from doing the hardest zones. I'd have to say that old zones with badass eq have to be upgraded. Places like brass TF, vault, ET are too easy for the eq yield, when compared to the rewards you get in muspelhiem, clouds, or bronze citadel. By making the zones harder, you are in effect messing up the succession of the mud, as zones are changing levels of difficulty, and evolve the same way the mud did. Brass and jot were the baddest zones, then came scorps and clouds which were harder and still are, then came muspel and bronze citadel, etc etc. The trend in the past here has been to downgrade old eq. Myrranthea got pulled entirely, lusties got downgraded, lots of other stuff too. Id say the power of equipment as it stands is in the right place, although i would still like to see more abilities and such granted through equipment, but zones like TF which are like a 5 or less on the difficulty scale have level 10 eq in them. You could upgrade the zones, but that doesn't leave much room for people making new zones to have eq in them that merit going to get them. By downgrading the equipment, giving a level 5 zone like TF level 5 equipment as rewards, you open up the ranks a bit for new zones to come in that are 10+ difficulty to give level 10 eq as rewards that people actually need to go get if they want to have the best set of eq. So i say leave the cap, and downgrade existing equipment, thus creating room for newer, harder zones with better rewards.
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Thanuk Pantherclaw
Deltin,
I like the idea, in theory, of making skills more important. I disagree with anything that assumes people should be playing in a 15 person group. The best players on this mud are the ones that are trying to give themselves a challenge by doing zones with less and less people.
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Goddamned slippery mage.
I like the idea, in theory, of making skills more important. I disagree with anything that assumes people should be playing in a 15 person group. The best players on this mud are the ones that are trying to give themselves a challenge by doing zones with less and less people.
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Goddamned slippery mage.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think one of the issues is that the mud has seen so many different upgrades and downgrades to playability, and the zones really haven't. Some zones are around from the era where areabuilders were looking to make jackpot zones that were really hard for what was a completely melee dominated mud. Granted, the items were changed, but for the most part the main change we saw in regards to the mass caster influx and melee exodus was all hit/dam eq getting nerfed, and weapons being limited to +2 +1 or thereabouts.
I like the idea of zone rating and equipment rating. I also like dugs idea about breaking the cap of maximum allowable gear as long as its a very heinous risk, but it would have to have a lot of discretion to it, and the risk should be pretty ridiculous, even catastrophic.
I remember back when losing corpses was more common, if there were zones so difficult that you could lose everything you have, but the reward was just SO worth it, i think that could balance it.
Back to the rating system. I know there are a ton of zones, but honestly, they don't all get done, and thats very very sad that theres so much real estate that gets neglected. Especially when everyone looks the same because the same 10 zones are getting done over and over again.
Why not do polls, or take some of the more experienced people, and evaluate zone difficulty. The credits list is all but antiquated, and saying level range is 1-50 is a little vague.
Then send your little task force of people (I know there would be many many volunteers because most of the more dedicated people would love nothing more to help out in this area) to evaluate weapons and gear, and on a sliding scale put the better gear in the harder zones, more gear in the long zones, and less gear in the short zones, lesser statted gear in the easy zones.
Keeping in mind that certain ansi themes would need to stick together of course.
This would be an awesome revamp, not only could you potentially fix the argument of risk vs reward, but you could resurrect old zones that people have stopped doing without having to recode it or have a new area maker put new things in it.
Thoughts?
I like the idea of zone rating and equipment rating. I also like dugs idea about breaking the cap of maximum allowable gear as long as its a very heinous risk, but it would have to have a lot of discretion to it, and the risk should be pretty ridiculous, even catastrophic.
I remember back when losing corpses was more common, if there were zones so difficult that you could lose everything you have, but the reward was just SO worth it, i think that could balance it.
Back to the rating system. I know there are a ton of zones, but honestly, they don't all get done, and thats very very sad that theres so much real estate that gets neglected. Especially when everyone looks the same because the same 10 zones are getting done over and over again.
Why not do polls, or take some of the more experienced people, and evaluate zone difficulty. The credits list is all but antiquated, and saying level range is 1-50 is a little vague.
Then send your little task force of people (I know there would be many many volunteers because most of the more dedicated people would love nothing more to help out in this area) to evaluate weapons and gear, and on a sliding scale put the better gear in the harder zones, more gear in the long zones, and less gear in the short zones, lesser statted gear in the easy zones.
Keeping in mind that certain ansi themes would need to stick together of course.
This would be an awesome revamp, not only could you potentially fix the argument of risk vs reward, but you could resurrect old zones that people have stopped doing without having to recode it or have a new area maker put new things in it.
Thoughts?
I don't know if Yayaril was serious or not, but I agree with that sentiment, AKA Dugmaren option #2.
I see no problem with removing eq caps, as long as the eq becomes becomes equally difficult to attain, with one constraint. Items that provide permanent effects and skills should always be rare/nonexistant. Items with prots, di, dm, sneak, invis, etc.etc. reduce the need for classes with those abilities. Leave them at the Tia level, or eventually top-end gear will end up replacing the need for certain classes.
A multi-tiered zoning world allows the challenge to be ramped up for those who have attained grand-master player status already, and ensures there is always some zone that can instill spank fear in players, as BC does/did.
The only drawback I see is not from a balance standpoint but from a realism standpoint... It gets silly having 3/3 bracelets and 100 hp rings.. but it also gets silly in the relative difficulty of similar mobs. That is to say, "Why is demon A from super new zone Z 5 times harder than demon B from old zone Y?"
Furthermore, such zones that you might expect to always maintain top-tier rank, such as Bel's citadel, manscorpions, and Tiamat will have to be continually upgraded to maintain that status because of the constantly escalating zones and equipment.
Maybe some system can be designed to automatically upgrade these zones, maybe not. I still vote option 2 though.
[This message has been edited by Dezzex (edited 11-29-2002).]
I see no problem with removing eq caps, as long as the eq becomes becomes equally difficult to attain, with one constraint. Items that provide permanent effects and skills should always be rare/nonexistant. Items with prots, di, dm, sneak, invis, etc.etc. reduce the need for classes with those abilities. Leave them at the Tia level, or eventually top-end gear will end up replacing the need for certain classes.
A multi-tiered zoning world allows the challenge to be ramped up for those who have attained grand-master player status already, and ensures there is always some zone that can instill spank fear in players, as BC does/did.
The only drawback I see is not from a balance standpoint but from a realism standpoint... It gets silly having 3/3 bracelets and 100 hp rings.. but it also gets silly in the relative difficulty of similar mobs. That is to say, "Why is demon A from super new zone Z 5 times harder than demon B from old zone Y?"
Furthermore, such zones that you might expect to always maintain top-tier rank, such as Bel's citadel, manscorpions, and Tiamat will have to be continually upgraded to maintain that status because of the constantly escalating zones and equipment.
Maybe some system can be designed to automatically upgrade these zones, maybe not. I still vote option 2 though.
[This message has been edited by Dezzex (edited 11-29-2002).]
i like option 2, but as people break into option 2 - zones will get easier and easier, and those option 2 players will continue to rise above other players, further and further.
when you get the guys from netheril rocking spanky zones in option 2, eventually people aren't going to get many opporunities to approach them. i guess it could be fixed if, like dug says, they only do very MINOR boosts to existing eq, it would work.
just how MUCH more badass will these players be is the question? will thanuk end up with 50 hit points more than daz after a year, or 200?
if non bad ass players will not get bumped into mediocrity by these zones, and we can at least play substitute on occasion for elite players, then i support option 2, with the additional criteria that current zone/eq balances DO need reworking.
when you get the guys from netheril rocking spanky zones in option 2, eventually people aren't going to get many opporunities to approach them. i guess it could be fixed if, like dug says, they only do very MINOR boosts to existing eq, it would work.
just how MUCH more badass will these players be is the question? will thanuk end up with 50 hit points more than daz after a year, or 200?
if non bad ass players will not get bumped into mediocrity by these zones, and we can at least play substitute on occasion for elite players, then i support option 2, with the additional criteria that current zone/eq balances DO need reworking.
My concern with the time, vs risk, reawrd etc queation is the LONG zones. They are not necesarrily hard in many cases just incredibly long. I would prefer to see more items that have % chance of loading in a shorter zone than a long zone with definate items at end. Means the total quation is the same but being able to spend 10 hours in front of your computer isn't seen as a good thing. Save epic zones for tia!
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarell:
<B>My concern with the time, vs risk, reawrd etc queation is the LONG zones. They are not necesarrily hard in many cases just incredibly long. I would prefer to see more items that have % chance of loading in a shorter zone than a long zone with definate items at end. Means the total quation is the same but being able to spend 10 hours in front of your computer isn't seen as a good thing. Save epic zones for tia!
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Totally agree, shorten the lenght increase the difficulty in needed. I like Jot cause there is plenty of gear, nothing worse than spending 4-6 hours only to end up with nothing, even if the stats aren't all that great it's nice to walk away with something.
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So whad are we gonna do tonight Brain? Same thing we do everynight Pinky, TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!
<B>My concern with the time, vs risk, reawrd etc queation is the LONG zones. They are not necesarrily hard in many cases just incredibly long. I would prefer to see more items that have % chance of loading in a shorter zone than a long zone with definate items at end. Means the total quation is the same but being able to spend 10 hours in front of your computer isn't seen as a good thing. Save epic zones for tia!
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Totally agree, shorten the lenght increase the difficulty in needed. I like Jot cause there is plenty of gear, nothing worse than spending 4-6 hours only to end up with nothing, even if the stats aren't all that great it's nice to walk away with something.
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So whad are we gonna do tonight Brain? Same thing we do everynight Pinky, TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dezzex:
<B>
I see no problem with removing eq caps, as long as the eq becomes becomes equally difficult to attain, with one constraint. Items that provide permanent effects and skills should always be rare/nonexistant. Items with prots, di, dm, sneak, invis, etc.etc. reduce the need for classes with those abilities. Leave them at the Tia level, or eventually top-end gear will end up replacing the need for certain classes.
[This message has been edited by Dezzex (edited 11-29-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Do you really consider all of these to be of the same nature? I mean sure sneak gear is rediculously powerful, but invis/di, dm? These are spells of the lowest circle, and anyone can buy potions or scrolls that will cast these spells, sometimes extremely cheap. Its interesting to see how different people's opinions of these abilities are.
As for the rest of you, who are all going with option 2, i dont think you understand what your signing up for. The biggest complaint with any RPG for a PC or a console like PS2 is that your character gets too powerful, and everything becomes rediculously easy. Everyone I know who was big into NWN gave up on it, not because it was too challenging, but because it was no challenge at all. You mopped the floor with all the bosses because your characters were too strong. I always loved the fact that it never happened on this mud. As strong as you got, it was never game breaking. But with option B, eventually your gonna see rogues with 80 damroll and tanks with 1500 hps without spells. You need a limit on how powerful one character can be.
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Thanuk Pantherclaw
<B>
I see no problem with removing eq caps, as long as the eq becomes becomes equally difficult to attain, with one constraint. Items that provide permanent effects and skills should always be rare/nonexistant. Items with prots, di, dm, sneak, invis, etc.etc. reduce the need for classes with those abilities. Leave them at the Tia level, or eventually top-end gear will end up replacing the need for certain classes.
[This message has been edited by Dezzex (edited 11-29-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Do you really consider all of these to be of the same nature? I mean sure sneak gear is rediculously powerful, but invis/di, dm? These are spells of the lowest circle, and anyone can buy potions or scrolls that will cast these spells, sometimes extremely cheap. Its interesting to see how different people's opinions of these abilities are.
As for the rest of you, who are all going with option 2, i dont think you understand what your signing up for. The biggest complaint with any RPG for a PC or a console like PS2 is that your character gets too powerful, and everything becomes rediculously easy. Everyone I know who was big into NWN gave up on it, not because it was too challenging, but because it was no challenge at all. You mopped the floor with all the bosses because your characters were too strong. I always loved the fact that it never happened on this mud. As strong as you got, it was never game breaking. But with option B, eventually your gonna see rogues with 80 damroll and tanks with 1500 hps without spells. You need a limit on how powerful one character can be.
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Thanuk Pantherclaw
And what's it matter if rogues get 80 damage roll when the mobs have twice as many hitpoints. What's it matter if tanks have 1500 hitpoints if the mobs do even more damage. It'll scale. I think one of the first steps into going into a new, higher powered sojourn is to give up the idea that Tiamat should be the hardest challenge around. I've played and ran plenty of games of DnD and there are bigger fish than her.
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-Yayaril
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-Yayaril
Bigger fish than Tia in DnD:
Mephistopheles, Lord of the 8th Hell.
Bahamut, Lord of the Neutral Dragons.
The Tarrasque could be argued to be at least physically as dangerous.
Hell, pick up a copy of the Book of Vile Darkness or the Epic Level Handbook :-p
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Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
Mephistopheles, Lord of the 8th Hell.
Bahamut, Lord of the Neutral Dragons.
The Tarrasque could be argued to be at least physically as dangerous.
Hell, pick up a copy of the Book of Vile Darkness or the Epic Level Handbook :-p
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Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Deltin:
<B> Totally agree, shorten the lenght increase the difficulty in needed. I like Jot cause there is plenty of gear, nothing worse than spending 4-6 hours only to end up with nothing, even if the stats aren't all that great it's nice to walk away with something.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agree. Time > all else. The reason that there are 10 zones that get done over and over again is time more than any other factor.
There are fewer and fewer of us that can devote 6-10 hours on a zone let alone 17-24.
Hell, there are lots of times when we do zones where many of us abstain on bids because we don't need the items. We go for the fun of it or to get someone else the items that they want.
As to gargamel's post about us going for the easy stuff I disagree. If the zone offer a good variety of EQ it will be done as long as the time involved is not rediculous. Right now I would yell and scream to get my guild to do a zone that had a shaman themed held object that equaled a nebula. Hell, if you put one in that was +max_wis and had the same hps as a nebula I think people would line up to do that zone.
Going for the easiest zone is not what we want to do. We want a challenge that will offer a chance at some restrung items and a chance at an item that is different than others in the game.
<B> Totally agree, shorten the lenght increase the difficulty in needed. I like Jot cause there is plenty of gear, nothing worse than spending 4-6 hours only to end up with nothing, even if the stats aren't all that great it's nice to walk away with something.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agree. Time > all else. The reason that there are 10 zones that get done over and over again is time more than any other factor.
There are fewer and fewer of us that can devote 6-10 hours on a zone let alone 17-24.
Hell, there are lots of times when we do zones where many of us abstain on bids because we don't need the items. We go for the fun of it or to get someone else the items that they want.
As to gargamel's post about us going for the easy stuff I disagree. If the zone offer a good variety of EQ it will be done as long as the time involved is not rediculous. Right now I would yell and scream to get my guild to do a zone that had a shaman themed held object that equaled a nebula. Hell, if you put one in that was +max_wis and had the same hps as a nebula I think people would line up to do that zone.
Going for the easiest zone is not what we want to do. We want a challenge that will offer a chance at some restrung items and a chance at an item that is different than others in the game.
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Xisiqomelir
- Sojourner
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by old depok:
<B>
Going for the easiest zone is not what we want to do. We want a challenge that will offer a chance at some restrung items and a chance at an item that is different than others in the game.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
He didn't say that players only do easy zones. He said that given two items with identical stats, players will tend do the easier zone and get the easier to acquire item.
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Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"
<B>
Going for the easiest zone is not what we want to do. We want a challenge that will offer a chance at some restrung items and a chance at an item that is different than others in the game.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
He didn't say that players only do easy zones. He said that given two items with identical stats, players will tend do the easier zone and get the easier to acquire item.
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Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yayaril:
<B>And what's it matter if rogues get 80 damage roll when the mobs have twice as many hitpoints. What's it matter if tanks have 1500 hitpoints if the mobs do even more damage. It'll scale. I think one of the first steps into going into a new, higher powered sojourn is to give up the idea that Tiamat should be the hardest challenge around. I've played and ran plenty of games of DnD and there are bigger fish than her.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well if your just gonna double the numbers and have everything be exactly the same ratio, why even bother? If it takes you 20 rounds to kill something, and you double the damage you do, and double the mobs hps, so it still takes you 20 rounds to kill it, you just stay exactly the same. Whats the point of that?
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Thanuk Pantherclaw
<B>And what's it matter if rogues get 80 damage roll when the mobs have twice as many hitpoints. What's it matter if tanks have 1500 hitpoints if the mobs do even more damage. It'll scale. I think one of the first steps into going into a new, higher powered sojourn is to give up the idea that Tiamat should be the hardest challenge around. I've played and ran plenty of games of DnD and there are bigger fish than her.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well if your just gonna double the numbers and have everything be exactly the same ratio, why even bother? If it takes you 20 rounds to kill something, and you double the damage you do, and double the mobs hps, so it still takes you 20 rounds to kill it, you just stay exactly the same. Whats the point of that?
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Thanuk Pantherclaw
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B> Well if your just gonna double the numbers and have everything be exactly the same ratio, why even bother? If it takes you 20 rounds to kill something, and you double the damage you do, and double the mobs hps, so it still takes you 20 rounds to kill it, you just stay exactly the same. Whats the point of that?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
delay of the inevitable
<B> Well if your just gonna double the numbers and have everything be exactly the same ratio, why even bother? If it takes you 20 rounds to kill something, and you double the damage you do, and double the mobs hps, so it still takes you 20 rounds to kill it, you just stay exactly the same. Whats the point of that?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
delay of the inevitable
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by old depok:
<B>
Right now I would yell and scream to get my guild to do a zone that had a shaman themed held object that equaled a nebula. Hell, if you put one in that was +max_wis and had the same hps as a nebula I think people would line up to do that zone.
Going for the easiest zone is not what we want to do. We want a challenge that will offer a chance at some restrung items and a chance at an item that is different than others in the game.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your post is kinda funny. There is an item that is identical to nebula in hp but has maxwis. Your guild probably won't do it either And nobody is lining up to do it.
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Nokie group-says 'what a rip-off, I spend months incapacitating navy seamen and doing 28,000 bandages and now we get tons of practice here in bronze citadel'
<B>
Right now I would yell and scream to get my guild to do a zone that had a shaman themed held object that equaled a nebula. Hell, if you put one in that was +max_wis and had the same hps as a nebula I think people would line up to do that zone.
Going for the easiest zone is not what we want to do. We want a challenge that will offer a chance at some restrung items and a chance at an item that is different than others in the game.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your post is kinda funny. There is an item that is identical to nebula in hp but has maxwis. Your guild probably won't do it either
And nobody is lining up to do it.------------------
Nokie group-says 'what a rip-off, I spend months incapacitating navy seamen and doing 28,000 bandages and now we get tons of practice here in bronze citadel'
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