Muspelheim

Archive of the Sojourn3 Gameplay Discussion Forum.
Gormal
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Muspelheim

Postby Gormal » Mon Nov 11, 2002 7:14 am

This isnt a flame vs the zone I like it...I just want to use the pbase to prove a point to Dugmaren.


Lets say you do muspelheim. you go up and you decide to head through the citadel...oh yay bracelet loads! (midlevel item) oh fah no boots

on to the next place

holy crap glammad has coif! and surtur has greaves and glyphs joy joy! even the bracelet loaded! so you've now been in zone approximatly 2 hours and you have 1 good item and 4 midlevel ones.

thats it....thats counting a decent run. The rares are so sparase because the grid is so damned big. Firbolgs is lacking anything but the corbin and the necklace. Every single piece of equipment that is worth using by a high level player is a quest or from invasion. And because of this no good players want to do the zone...its not worth their time.

Muspelheim is supposed to be a zone for the high level players...and a very tough one. Not just when invasion loads, then its 50s only. As it stands, the invasion isnt that much harder because of the massive grid space...and if you flood the grid with more mobs it could just turn into impossible if they all flock around. But it gives rewards at or barely above vault level eq.

It needs at least 2 high level items, and some more midlevel stuff that always loads...every damn thing in there is a random load and we keep getting screwed out of rewards. Raise some of the rares % loads a bit.

At the current time i've been in the zone 3 hours and we have one item....one...and its pretty mediocre on a good day. Surtur has like 10000 friends with him and the group doesnt wanna do because all our clerics have tauts or bassie pants so they dont need greaves and glyphs are like a token. Glammad is nowhere to be seen and even if he was we all have 1k headbands tiaras hell even coronet is as good.

Risk vs Reward is getting out of wack all over the mud...and as much as i really love this zone I do have to say its the best example at this time.

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"Forward Mithrilguard!"
Pheten
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Postby Pheten » Mon Nov 11, 2002 7:23 am

Like Gormal said this zone is great, very challenging fun fights, alot of death. But it really sucks when after 3 hours of lots of death and tough battle you stop to look at your loot and you got a drink container and one half ass item and you've literally cleared a very good chunk of the zone. Then you get to the last big very hard fight... and it just isn't worth the effort for the soso items you get so you all leave.
Really might wanna look at this.


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Postby Bipple » Mon Nov 11, 2002 7:28 am

Agree, same time and effort as clouds/scorps yet pales in comparison to the equip from those zones.
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Postby Xebes » Mon Nov 11, 2002 7:31 am

Muspelheim may be the most recent example of why I've had to find other things than zoning to still have fun at all at the game.

If anyone wants an interesting read that applys so goddamn highly to life on the mud, I highly suggest reading "An Absurd Reasoning" by Albert Camus. Those who've read it may understand where I'm at right about now. :-P

-X

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Postby Dalar » Mon Nov 11, 2002 7:41 am

15 man group that can raze muspelheim can also get much better eq and spend less time/risk doing it in scorps or clouds.

the only good eq comes from quests. i agree that quest eq should be > zone eq. however, the zone will be less desired if its common eq isn't on par with other high level zones like manscorps and clouds.

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Postby Gerad » Mon Nov 11, 2002 7:43 am

Seriously, the whole drink container being the only reward thing that pheten was talking about...

at the present time,

muspelheim is like assaulting leuthilspar to get at bandor for the flagon

Love yah zone dug, just put more eq in it!

-Gerad


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Postby Jegzed » Mon Nov 11, 2002 7:49 am

Feh, Gormal is right.

I personally don't want to spend my time doing Muspelheim, just because its got no reward guaranteed. We rather do Scorps, MD, Hulburg, Avernus or Clouds during that big time investment.

If the eq from the main fights was somewhat guaranteed, then it would be worth it, but as of now, its better for the group to just spank Jotunheim for the umpteenth time.



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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Mon Nov 11, 2002 8:08 am

Some of the best eq is from there... the best gaunts (in 4 flavors, mind you), the bec owns you, all the different armors, the scarfs, the daggers, the yuan-ti tail thing, the anti mask, all the different boots, and there's a whole lot of quest rewards we probably haven't seen yet. Plus the invasion eq owns.

But I'll agree, the regular eq is somewhat thinly spread.

Still looking for a group to do the zone to finish my quest tho... only been waiting 4 weeks now.

Every time I was there I had fun tho.

Btw, weren't you all saying style > function? Do the zone for the fun then.
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Postby Gormal » Mon Nov 11, 2002 8:38 am

I can't get a group to do the zone for fun because no one wants to go...sadly my style > function theory isnt catching on. 90% of people dont have a bag of things to quest in muspelheim. And most of the quests people want to do involve the dragon scales...now which are more annoying to find.

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Postby Allycis » Mon Nov 11, 2002 9:14 am

I think muspel is a pretty cool zone and i like that there's tons of quests to do. My only complaint would be that if the zone eq is going to be based primarily on quests you do in the zone, maybe there should be more quests that can be done entirely with items from muspel so that there is more of a split after you're done. Might possibly be an alternative to just adding more eq straight onto mobs that has high level stats
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Postby Nilan » Mon Nov 11, 2002 10:41 am

Muspel is fun zone Image challenging and fun fights. I think thats whats important Image

Nilan
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Postby rylan » Mon Nov 11, 2002 1:06 pm

gormal, go there in the evenings when I'm not at work damnit! :P
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Postby Zoldren » Mon Nov 11, 2002 1:53 pm

tail ring is not from mush Image

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MoM-D
Jegzed
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Postby Jegzed » Mon Nov 11, 2002 2:14 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zoldren:
<B>tail ring is not from mush Image
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes there is one from Muspelheim too.

And its not pink.. Image

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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Nov 11, 2002 2:56 pm

Go in the evenings when we're not at work? But you can easily spend around ten hours in the zone. I don't have ten hours to spend in a zone during the week, as much as I'd love to. I don't mind spending that much time in a zone on the weekends... a couple of times. After the three all-day events I've had in Musp so far with little to no reward not just for me, but for the entire group, Musp started losing its fun. After a full work-day tempers start to flare, people get grouchy, and the last couple of hours in the zone can lose their "fun" quality easily, depending on the make-up of the group.

Equipment shouldn't be the reason to be out zoning, no. The reason is to be hanging out with your friends... which most people could probably do at 1w. I've done tons of zones with no equipment expectations, and will do tons more in the future (with luck), but do people really think I play a rogue because I look good in tight leather pants? And as much as I love Dug, this whole "rogues should only be evil" attitude I keep getting from several of the staff members is frustrating and annoying, and when the group keeps finding nice rogue gear which is evil only, or !good, it gets frustrating and annoying, and eventually pisses me off. I've had these conversations with several staff members, and they know exactly what they're doing, so no offense here, but when a zone has several nice pieces tailored for rogues, but I still can't use them, it feels like kind of a slap in the face, and if the zone builder doesn't want me there then I don't see much of a point in going. Oh, and human-only gear. There's tons of human-only gear in GN... GN is all about the human-only gear. Sauk dagger is human-only gear, there really needed to be another? I could see the bow being human-only to compensate human rangers for the elf-only stuff, but the elf-only items in the game have long and intricate histories supporting them, along with very valid RP aspects.

So as much as I enjoy Musp (and I really do the first six hours or so), perhaps the eq distribution in the zone should be reconsidered. There's some really nice gear up there for quest, but maybe pieces of those quests should be on some of the harder fights within the zone. Put the dragons back in Musp, instead of letting them roam everywhere, and load their scales on them every boot. Killing a bunch of dragons for nothing is just a pain in the butt. Some of the rareload grid gear could use an upgrade to the load rate. I saw that pair of boots there the first day the zone loaded, and don't know anybody who's seen them since.

The zone's great... beautifully written, genius set-up, great code. The time investment you have to put into doing the zone becomes more like work as the hours roll by, though. The investment vs. reward ratio just isn't balanced enough to keep people going back regularly. At the end of eight hours people need to sit back and think 'whew, that was hard work and there's still some left to do, but look what we've got to show for it.'

That was four paragraphs, right? ::whistle::
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Postby Gyrx » Mon Nov 11, 2002 3:54 pm

Like cherz said, tons of great eq comes from there. But the only reason to go there is for invasion or to quest...which pisses away all the hard work dug put in.

However, the problem with having all those great quest items and then upping the regular EQ would be the same problem clouds has:

Too much good EQ coming from one place

I don't want another thing that took me awhile to quest get downgraded _again_. If you up the regular items some of the quest items need to be lowered.
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Postby Todrael » Mon Nov 11, 2002 4:00 pm

There's another human-only item in the zone, only wearable by anti-paladins. And white and green dragons make absolutely no sense in a land of fire and brimstone. Far, far less sense than human only items. And I talked with someone who does the zone regularly, and it would appear that goodies always bypass the boots with hide/ sneak/ teleport/ fold/ alternate route, so it's not a problem of them not loading, just a problem of tactics bypassing them.

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Postby Gurns » Mon Nov 11, 2002 4:34 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashiwi:
do people really think I play a rogue because I look good in tight leather pants? </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes.
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Mon Nov 11, 2002 4:39 pm

Whenever I do the zone I check the boots and there are rares I've yet to even see. Like the anti-paladin and I've done muspel probably more than most ppl. Hell I've got several muspel mobs on trophy now. The rares are just too rare. I honestly love the zone but its just so hard to get a group for it now.

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Postby Zen » Mon Nov 11, 2002 4:59 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gurns:
Yes.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hear fire giants think gurns looks good in tight leather pants as well.

-Lorgan

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[This message has been edited by Zen (edited 11-11-2002).]
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Postby Gormal » Mon Nov 11, 2002 7:59 pm

we check the boots after we take the alternate route...i think i've skipped em twice when they loaded for times issues.

white and green dragons dont load in muspelheim

theres a ton of racially and class restriced items up there, alot of which most people havent seen.



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Postby Waelos » Mon Nov 11, 2002 8:22 pm

Have to agree with Gormal.

And perhaps this is one reason Im so 'bitter' too =P

Recently lead a bunch of peeps through Musp. . spent three hours, about 15 deaths and got two mediocre items and we decided that we would give up because stuff got so silly. We saw what Surtur loaded and decided that it wasn't worth it. There are spanks waiting around every corner for the uninitiated. Hell, I even hade some tutoring through the zone from Neno on what summons what, etc. The zone _definately_ needs better eq that loads all the time in addition to the rare items and quests. Either that or always load invasion or something =) that'd be fun.

Lost

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Postby Gurns » Mon Nov 11, 2002 8:47 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zen:
<B> I hear fire giants think gurns looks good in tight leather pants as well.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dude, EVERYbody thinks I look good in tight leather pants, it's part of my charms...er, charm. And it must be an innate, since I didn't grow up on EM.
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Postby Fripple » Mon Nov 11, 2002 8:52 pm

I am one of those that publicly admits I have banned going to muspel.


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Postby Sargax » Mon Nov 11, 2002 8:56 pm

Muspel is great, especially the atmosphere Dug has created. I'd go to Muspel just for the chance to see the twinkly stars at night Image
I don't like wandering the grid. But then I don't like wandering any grids at all. However, I love it when we reach the castles. The ale fountain is great *burp* and the big fights like Surtur and Glammad are fun because they can either go really well or result in the group going smush. It's a fun challenge.
Besides, going to Muspel makes me feel like super drow when I can pick up a 12 foot tree and wield it Image

Ellana
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Postby Yarash » Tue Nov 12, 2002 5:10 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sargax:
<B>Besides, going to Muspel makes me feel like super drow when I can pick up a 12 foot tree and wield it Image

Ellana</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wielding the table is laughs. I just wish I could rent it and use it regularly <G>

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Postby Treladian » Tue Nov 12, 2002 3:16 pm

"Wielding the table is laughs. I just wish I could rent it and use it regularly "

I remember a whole bunch of us pocketing alarm buttons that first trip . . . then they realized that they were rentable . . . Image

I love the atmosphere of the place. It's easily one of the most stylish zones in the mud. But after so many hours of dying and mindlessly killing fodder mobs for some mediocre equipment no one wants, it feels more like a ship trip gone horribly wrong than a real zone.

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Postby Dugmaren » Tue Nov 12, 2002 4:53 pm

Glad you like it, sorry you don't think its worth it.

The short answer is I have no time for this at the moment. If you actually want something done you'll have to wait until mid December. Cross your fingers and send me a really well put together email with reasons, backup, and generally more then "I think this..", and MAYBE I'll take hours
out of my Christmas vacation to put more work into something so you can all piss and moan further.

Dug
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Postby kaitos » Tue Nov 12, 2002 5:17 pm

I have lead this zone probably about 40+ times and I still love it, except for the few things that seem broken right now, or were. The eq is not uber, but for loading 90% of the time its damn good, not as good as rare things, such as flayed, but those are much more rare and in theory not as common. The problem is that after 2 years most anyone who has been playing for the majority of it have well the majority of the rare eq. The zone can be done in 2 hours, hitting every eq mob, it just takes learning and a few skilled players.
Jot takes about the same amount of time to do thrym and loki, but the difference being the grid is much smaller so its easy to search it for rares. And rares/quests in jot are much simpler, but not worth as much. People do not bitch about jot eq being underrated, so i don't see why muspel gets analyzed so much.

Thanks for one of my favorite zones Dug
-neno
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Postby Rokub » Tue Nov 12, 2002 9:51 pm

Dug, plz make a note that I don't think, the spellbook, 'a crisp midnight blue leather manuscript (magic)'
should load on a dragon.. That seems a bit out of character and odd. Perhaps a quest for it would be more viable, or on another monster.

Thanks,

Rokub


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Postby Shargaas » Tue Nov 12, 2002 11:07 pm

Funny thing is that the other day I noticed that someone had not been looting Muspelheim very well as a nice item had been left on the floor. Go figure.
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Postby Jhorr » Tue Nov 12, 2002 11:10 pm

After reading this thread, I think the most productive suggestion so far is from Ashiwi who said, "Put the dragons back in Musp, instead of letting them roam everywhere, and load their scales on them every boot."

Law of probability says that the chance of 2 events occurring simultaneously is the product of their probabilities. So the chance of doing a quest there that depends on dragon scales = (chance dragon loads) * (chance scale loads). You do the math and you can see why the best reasons to do this zone are extremely unreliable.

Muspel is one of the most unique zones on the mud, it's a shame people object to going there for lack of eq. Making dragon scales more available might help. Another simple thing to do that might attract more visitors would be to up the exp from the zone. Then at least people might be satisfied with exp gained rather than moaning about losing their bid on the paltry booty.

Dug, don't get discouraged by this thread. Your zone rules and the hard work and dedication you put into it is obvious. Hopefully, the criticism in this post will be constructive.

Jhorr/Toraza
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Postby Gura » Tue Nov 12, 2002 11:22 pm

i think zoning should be more fun than reward..and imo risk = fun. if u want both then get up off ur asses and go to bronze citadel Image

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Postby Bipple » Wed Nov 13, 2002 12:10 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gura:
<B>i think zoning should be more fun than reward..and imo risk = fun. if u want both then get up off ur asses and go to bronze citadel Image

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We went last night, crashed on us at inner gate.



[This message has been edited by Bipple (edited 11-12-2002).]
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Postby Keran » Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:13 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gurns:
Yes.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

She wears pants?! *snap*

Toarn
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Postby Gormal » Wed Nov 13, 2002 2:23 am

Err Dug....

Who else camped in Muspelheim for 2 days refusing to join zone groups because they were all sucky comparitvly? You know I love the zone. _I_ would do it with no reward. But as a leader I do have to think about the people with me and most of them don't want to do the zone anymore. I want to spend more time there but I can't convince people to unless invasion is loaded at the moment.

I know whats going on irl...don't take this personally or as a rush thing...I posted this before you told me your current schedule. If you still want a good email or something let me know I have lots of stuff.

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Postby Deltin » Wed Nov 13, 2002 2:45 am

I've been in muspel regular/invasion groups, I wish I had the talent to write a zone like that. Normally I won't go to the zone mainly cause it takes too long, I go when I can invest the time. Doing long zones would be ok if you could word or leave when you had to, but it appears many of the zones are !teleport. In some cases there are "spots" you can word from if you know where they are, in other cases you have to fight all the way to the beginning just to leave. I've joined several groups and the leaders have said "we can start and people can leave when they have to and we'll try to find replacements" this is all good and well if you are in a zone that you can leave.
(notice I used the words "in some cases" and "appears" I'm not talking about every zone blah blah blah)

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Postby cherzra » Wed Nov 13, 2002 7:59 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jhorr:
<B>After reading this thread, I think the most productive suggestion so far is from Ashiwi who said, "Put the dragons back in Musp, instead of letting them roam everywhere, and load their scales on them every boot."

Law of probability says that the chance of 2 events occurring simultaneously is the product of their probabilities. So the chance of doing a quest there that depends on dragon scales = (chance dragon loads) * (chance scale loads). You do the math and you can see why the best reasons to do this zone are extremely unreliable.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I so disagree. The way it is now is perfect. If they load every boot in Muspelheim and always have their scales, it completely ruins every aspect of balance. These scales are used to make KICK ASS, and I mean KICK ASS items. They should be rares on rares, and I even agree with loading them in different places in the world. Gets people out of Waterdeep and if you don't want to, you frankly don't deserve items if this power. They should be very slow to enter the game and the way it is now is perfect.

No pain, no gain. You don't see Ymir, Infernos and the veil from Oakvale loading every boot (or every 10th boot for that matter) either, and for good reason. Think of it as something to look forward to.

BTW, every time I've done the zone, we had plenty of items to make a lot of people happy. Downgrade player complaints.
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Postby Daz » Wed Nov 13, 2002 8:59 am

hopefully now that im not a warrior, when i do get my chanter to zone level people will ask me to do fun zones.

i wanna do musp, oakvale, hurlburg, et, sf, swamps - i think ill pass on cc :P - and i still haven't done avernus or scorps.
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:13 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>hopefully now that im not a warrior, when i do get my chanter to zone level people will ask me to do fun zones.

i wanna do musp, oakvale, hurlburg, et, sf, swamps - i think ill pass on cc :P - and i still haven't done avernus or scorps.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Play evil cleric, hell, play any evil caster, they get to go everywhere Image



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Postby thanuk » Wed Nov 13, 2002 9:14 pm

suck it up and do muspel u pussies

<worn on hands> a pair of razor ridged green dragonscale gauntlets


You kno u luv my steez-o.


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Postby Dalar » Wed Nov 13, 2002 11:46 pm

in my opinion there is only one solution jake. go evil

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[Erevan] Our elite team of gods will be watching for equip campers.... beware...
Erevan OOC: 'One god is specifically assigned to Dartan :P'
Kiaransalee OOC: 'rangers suck'
Iyachtu OOC: 'and a lovely nite it is :)'
Dalar
Sojourner
Posts: 4905
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Dalar » Wed Nov 13, 2002 11:49 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Shargaas:
Funny thing is that the other day I noticed that someone had not been looting Muspelheim very well as a nice item had been left on the floor. Go figure.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

rofl was it basinet? i remember i solo'd two of abomination's frost giants and didn't loot b/c i thought the eq was on the abomination. alot of musp mobs have junk eq u can't sell so looting is kinda pointless. also you're slaughtering alot so...



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[Erevan] Our elite team of gods will be watching for equip campers.... beware...
Erevan OOC: 'One god is specifically assigned to Dartan :P'
Kiaransalee OOC: 'rangers suck'
Iyachtu OOC: 'and a lovely nite it is :)'
Dugmaren
Staff Member - Areas
Posts: 554
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Postby Dugmaren » Fri Dec 06, 2002 9:09 pm

School is clearing up very nicely, sitting back with a little studying while finals roll past nice 'n easy.

If you have any comments about Muspelheim - risk vs. reward, time investment, equipment power, fight difficulty, theme, etc, feel free to send me an email. I am also in the process of making a new short very high level zone, any equipment requests are welcome.

Unless the comment involves something simple like a bug, or timed proc not working, please include reasons for your comments. For example if you think the boots aren't powerful enough, list several other powerful yet easy to get boots that made you come to this conclusion.

Muspelheim, Character Name, Topic
toukage@hotmail.com

Thank-you in advance for any input,
Dugmaren

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