It seems to me that most players are discussing about either downgrading eq or upgrading zones to make the game balanced.
In my opinion, fixing eq or upgrading zones aren't going to solve much. Maybe temporary fix for 6 month to year or so.
I think the real problem lies with in pbase itself. Because our pbase shrunk greatly over the years, it ended up having same people doing zones over and over again. Which makes this mud naturally geared and fun for high lvlers.
With small pbase, its going to be same people who do zones over and over and that causes eq problems.
Current pbase = Core group of high lvl Mudder = Same people who do zones over n over
Surplus of Eq and not enough players to use them and same core group of people who do those zones over n over is one of the biggest reason why we have eq problems.
In my opinion, focusing on how to increase pbase and making it noob friendly is better direction for mud then to try to either downgrade eq or upgrade zones.
EQ downgrade ideas and pbase of mud
Excellent point..
The immortals have a difficult job on their hands. They need to make the mud more noob friendly so that we have a constant flow of fresh blood, but on the other hand, they need to keep their experienced players interested in the game or you start seeing attrition among their ranks. I don't think these two goals are mutually exclusive... but they both require effort.
Corth
------------------
Goddamned slippery mage.
The immortals have a difficult job on their hands. They need to make the mud more noob friendly so that we have a constant flow of fresh blood, but on the other hand, they need to keep their experienced players interested in the game or you start seeing attrition among their ranks. I don't think these two goals are mutually exclusive... but they both require effort.
Corth
------------------
Goddamned slippery mage.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Iktar:
In my opinion, focusing on how to increase pbase and making it noob friendly is better direction for mud then to try to either downgrade eq or upgrade zones.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
------------------
Shevarash responds to your petition with 'You are the wind beneath my wings.'
In my opinion, focusing on how to increase pbase and making it noob friendly is better direction for mud then to try to either downgrade eq or upgrade zones.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
------------------
Shevarash responds to your petition with 'You are the wind beneath my wings.'
if we can't even handle the current player base now what makes you think we can with double the players? you're just delaying the inevitable. eventually a newbie will be stacked with tf gear, brass gear etc. will he be able to upgrade that by going to bronze citadel, hulburg, or some other high level zone? if he can that's great. but notice how the majority of this mud doesn't do those zones daily while they do tf, brass, crypts etc. balancing eq for risk vs reward is something that should have been done ages ago. something is wrong when the max eq cap for boots is a quest that requires junk from 2 zones that take around 1.5 hours each.
------------------
Shevarash OOC: 'I never thought I'd long for Muma to be on OOC'
------------------
Shevarash OOC: 'I never thought I'd long for Muma to be on OOC'
imho if the gods want to make this place more newbie friendly, they should
1) look at the crit code for lower levels. even at 25 ssc mobs could kill me at 1/2 of my hps even with twink gear on
2) make the newbie channel stretch to level 25. lvl 10 is way too easy to get if you just do faerie forest and SS. lvl 25 on the otherhand is much harder. by the time u get to 25 you will probably have a couple of friends and broader sense of who will help you.
3) on entry message for the start of a new char or perhaps in the newbie zone, link the newbie guide and bbs to there? not sure if it's already there
------------------
Shevarash OOC: 'I never thought I'd long for Muma to be on OOC'
1) look at the crit code for lower levels. even at 25 ssc mobs could kill me at 1/2 of my hps even with twink gear on
2) make the newbie channel stretch to level 25. lvl 10 is way too easy to get if you just do faerie forest and SS. lvl 25 on the otherhand is much harder. by the time u get to 25 you will probably have a couple of friends and broader sense of who will help you.
3) on entry message for the start of a new char or perhaps in the newbie zone, link the newbie guide and bbs to there? not sure if it's already there
------------------
Shevarash OOC: 'I never thought I'd long for Muma to be on OOC'
I'm going to be honest here, and show a little of my disappointment. For years, making Sojourn noob-friendlier was one of my goals. I was a helper since the first week Ralen set up the helper system. I've done countless noob CRs, given out equipment, spells, advice, directions, etc.
Once S3 opened and my playtime decreased, I spent a long time discussing with various forgers how to make the game friendlier. I gave some feedback, got some info from miax, kia, and shev, and did some work. I rewrote help files, redid the faq, redid help newbie, wrote out some glossaries for common mud terms and acronyms, and fleshed out a newbie zone (though I don't have the TE knowledge to finish it). I've compiled a list of very minor changes to low level spells and skills that will help new casters level much more easily through the "I can't kill a kooshie" phase. I filled in various other odds and ends that my friends who were new to mudding said they were confused about or needed help with.
I've posted, I've emailed, I've petitioned about all of this. Not one of my submissions got implemented. Not one help file changed. The FAQ is still the same one Mask did at the beginning of the wipe, with outdated or incorrect information in it. In fact, I never even received and email reply to most of my submissions. I have an email in my inbox from Miax dated 7/25 about a new newbie enhancing project he needed help on, but I haven't heard anything else about it since. There's a folder sitting on my old (now partially corrupted) hard drive filled with Sojourn help files and newbie assistance ideas that have never seen so much as a "hey that looks good, we'll talk about it and put it in if Miax approves it." If anybody wants these files, you can have whatever I can salvage. I already did all the work.
I don't have an explanation for this. Maybe the staff just doesn't want my opinion, and nobody bothered to tell me. Perhaps everyone is too busy to imm for sojourn these days... issues rise and fall on the BBS, the players come to agreement, bugs that are years old are brought up and discussed, then nothing changes, and the posts fall off the bbs. Good luck players, if you can set the wheels of change in motion, then more power to you. The ideas are out there and there are so many people willing to help, you just need to prod the people in charge in the right direction.
------------------
- Ragorn
Rondandal tells you 'I take it your goal is to clash?'
Once S3 opened and my playtime decreased, I spent a long time discussing with various forgers how to make the game friendlier. I gave some feedback, got some info from miax, kia, and shev, and did some work. I rewrote help files, redid the faq, redid help newbie, wrote out some glossaries for common mud terms and acronyms, and fleshed out a newbie zone (though I don't have the TE knowledge to finish it). I've compiled a list of very minor changes to low level spells and skills that will help new casters level much more easily through the "I can't kill a kooshie" phase. I filled in various other odds and ends that my friends who were new to mudding said they were confused about or needed help with.
I've posted, I've emailed, I've petitioned about all of this. Not one of my submissions got implemented. Not one help file changed. The FAQ is still the same one Mask did at the beginning of the wipe, with outdated or incorrect information in it. In fact, I never even received and email reply to most of my submissions. I have an email in my inbox from Miax dated 7/25 about a new newbie enhancing project he needed help on, but I haven't heard anything else about it since. There's a folder sitting on my old (now partially corrupted) hard drive filled with Sojourn help files and newbie assistance ideas that have never seen so much as a "hey that looks good, we'll talk about it and put it in if Miax approves it." If anybody wants these files, you can have whatever I can salvage. I already did all the work.
I don't have an explanation for this. Maybe the staff just doesn't want my opinion, and nobody bothered to tell me. Perhaps everyone is too busy to imm for sojourn these days... issues rise and fall on the BBS, the players come to agreement, bugs that are years old are brought up and discussed, then nothing changes, and the posts fall off the bbs. Good luck players, if you can set the wheels of change in motion, then more power to you. The ideas are out there and there are so many people willing to help, you just need to prod the people in charge in the right direction.
------------------
- Ragorn
Rondandal tells you 'I take it your goal is to clash?'
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalar:
<B>if we can't even handle the current player base now what makes you think we can with double the players? you're just delaying the inevitable. eventually a newbie will be stacked with tf gear, brass gear etc. will he be able to upgrade that by going to bronze citadel, hulburg, or some other high level zone? if he can that's great. but notice how the majority of this mud doesn't do those zones daily while they do tf, brass, crypts etc. balancing eq for risk vs reward is something that should have been done ages ago. something is wrong when the max eq cap for boots is a quest that requires junk from 2 zones that take around 1.5 hours each.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Point taken. Yes, I agree that eventually, tge eq overflow will catch up to pbase no matter how large it is. Yes, we do need to fix the eq problem but its temporary solution to overall problem. Even if we did lower eq stat or upgraded zone difficutly. It's matter of months before same situation will arise. So we start the cycle over, etc.
But in between those cycles, RL will catch up and the core people will have to leave one by one. And if we don't have people coming in the replace those that are leaving. And eventually, the mud simply would not exist. If mud doesn't exist, what's the point of balancing mud. This can be clearly seen by lack of real newbies.
And if you can remember far, far back to days of Toril when u were Barbarian conjurer starting out. We had pbase of 300 daily easy, which is triple our pbase and it took long, long time for everyone to get decked up. Just because of sheer number of people available, getting into zoning group was more difficult. Right now, because of pbase, if ure lvl 46 + of some class and mud booted, chances are you'll likely get into zoning group. Simple because there isn't enough players to meet the demand. This is also very evident by people telling someone 'you are the only ____ on mud, we need you' Something like that happening back in the days were truly rare.
Higher pbase = Lower chance of Zoning = Less Eq for one person = Longer it takes to get decked out.
And yes, eventually everybody will be decked out and eq will have to be downgraded. However, if we only keep aiming to please the current pbase. What if when the core of pbase leaves? This is inevitable and it will eventually lead to end of sojourn as we know. Unless efforts are put into increasing pbase. I also realize that if current pbase are not happy, they will leave and this would also end of sojourn as well. However, overflowing eq isn't a big factor on why people leave, RL is.
I just think greater portion of limited resources should be spent to increase pbase more so than to spend it on fixing eq and zones. I'm not saying quests, zones, and eqs shouldn't be fixed. I'm just stating that I think increasing pbase is more of priority than fixing eq, zones, and quests. But I guess I'm biased since I can't play as much before due to RL :P nor decked out hehe.
And thanks for view from other side.
<B>if we can't even handle the current player base now what makes you think we can with double the players? you're just delaying the inevitable. eventually a newbie will be stacked with tf gear, brass gear etc. will he be able to upgrade that by going to bronze citadel, hulburg, or some other high level zone? if he can that's great. but notice how the majority of this mud doesn't do those zones daily while they do tf, brass, crypts etc. balancing eq for risk vs reward is something that should have been done ages ago. something is wrong when the max eq cap for boots is a quest that requires junk from 2 zones that take around 1.5 hours each.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Point taken. Yes, I agree that eventually, tge eq overflow will catch up to pbase no matter how large it is. Yes, we do need to fix the eq problem but its temporary solution to overall problem. Even if we did lower eq stat or upgraded zone difficutly. It's matter of months before same situation will arise. So we start the cycle over, etc.
But in between those cycles, RL will catch up and the core people will have to leave one by one. And if we don't have people coming in the replace those that are leaving. And eventually, the mud simply would not exist. If mud doesn't exist, what's the point of balancing mud. This can be clearly seen by lack of real newbies.
And if you can remember far, far back to days of Toril when u were Barbarian conjurer starting out. We had pbase of 300 daily easy, which is triple our pbase and it took long, long time for everyone to get decked up. Just because of sheer number of people available, getting into zoning group was more difficult. Right now, because of pbase, if ure lvl 46 + of some class and mud booted, chances are you'll likely get into zoning group. Simple because there isn't enough players to meet the demand. This is also very evident by people telling someone 'you are the only ____ on mud, we need you' Something like that happening back in the days were truly rare.
Higher pbase = Lower chance of Zoning = Less Eq for one person = Longer it takes to get decked out.
And yes, eventually everybody will be decked out and eq will have to be downgraded. However, if we only keep aiming to please the current pbase. What if when the core of pbase leaves? This is inevitable and it will eventually lead to end of sojourn as we know. Unless efforts are put into increasing pbase. I also realize that if current pbase are not happy, they will leave and this would also end of sojourn as well. However, overflowing eq isn't a big factor on why people leave, RL is.
I just think greater portion of limited resources should be spent to increase pbase more so than to spend it on fixing eq and zones. I'm not saying quests, zones, and eqs shouldn't be fixed. I'm just stating that I think increasing pbase is more of priority than fixing eq, zones, and quests. But I guess I'm biased since I can't play as much before due to RL :P nor decked out hehe.
And thanks for view from other side.
HAHAHA core players leave one by one
rofl
"we all float down here . . . "
most of the 'core players' have been here 5+ years, and many people nearing the decade mark. leave?
they are most of the ones left.
believe it or not, all of the issues you posted here Miax has addressed on OOC.
a newbie system is in the works. the pbase WILL be growing the way it did in the past - when the immortals feel the time is right to bring those players in.
i, for one, am mostly sad that there won't be a pwipe. racing around TP and sedawis and goblin caves and split shield and graveyard and SWD mobs after the pwipe was great fun. sadly, this won't happen - and i can't complain. the powergamers who play for the eq would probably be bent out of shape like you wouldn't imagine.
rofl
"we all float down here . . . "
most of the 'core players' have been here 5+ years, and many people nearing the decade mark. leave?
they are most of the ones left.
believe it or not, all of the issues you posted here Miax has addressed on OOC.
a newbie system is in the works. the pbase WILL be growing the way it did in the past - when the immortals feel the time is right to bring those players in.
i, for one, am mostly sad that there won't be a pwipe. racing around TP and sedawis and goblin caves and split shield and graveyard and SWD mobs after the pwipe was great fun. sadly, this won't happen - and i can't complain. the powergamers who play for the eq would probably be bent out of shape like you wouldn't imagine.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
the powergamers who play for the eq would probably be bent out of shape like you wouldn't imagine.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just because you are not one, and don't care to be one, doesn't give you the right to go around crusading and making comments like this.
The flipside of that, is that the opposite is true... Which is probably why comments like this are made, because it happens so often.
But as a wise man told me the other day...
"Michael, you need to do things for yourself. If someone plays games with you, or pushes your buttons, don't let them. You only lose if you react, instead of respond."
I'm trying to take those words to heart, thanks Dad.
Carry on!
------------------
Malacar - omg ymir!
Tanji ASSOC:: 'god was blueballed the night before he made Thanuk'
the powergamers who play for the eq would probably be bent out of shape like you wouldn't imagine.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just because you are not one, and don't care to be one, doesn't give you the right to go around crusading and making comments like this.
The flipside of that, is that the opposite is true... Which is probably why comments like this are made, because it happens so often.
But as a wise man told me the other day...
"Michael, you need to do things for yourself. If someone plays games with you, or pushes your buttons, don't let them. You only lose if you react, instead of respond."
I'm trying to take those words to heart, thanks Dad.
Carry on!
------------------
Malacar - omg ymir!
Tanji ASSOC:: 'god was blueballed the night before he made Thanuk'
actually malacar, your co-players are the ones who have voiced in numerous threads how they would react to a pwipe. i did not just 'make an assumption' as to what they would do.
http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001763.html
jegzed = I'd start playing everquest.
todrael = I would find another mud to play on.
malacar = I'd give up mudding altogether.
touk = I'd quit
vandic = I'd probably retire and find some healthier addiction
zoldren = i know i wouldnt play again i would quit
gormal = I wouldn't have time to exp up again...let alone the desire to.
teyaha = i'd not play again if there was another wipe.
http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001763.html
jegzed = I'd start playing everquest.
todrael = I would find another mud to play on.
malacar = I'd give up mudding altogether.
touk = I'd quit
vandic = I'd probably retire and find some healthier addiction
zoldren = i know i wouldnt play again i would quit
gormal = I wouldn't have time to exp up again...let alone the desire to.
teyaha = i'd not play again if there was another wipe.
I'm somewhat new.. i remember when i started i was horribly intimidated by all these people that have been here for years and know every millimetre.
8 months now, and i'm still intimidated. but i have fun and like to imagine i do ok at it now.
but it is hard for newbies.
donno what all we can do cept recruit
Deshie
------------------
Deshana Al'Medin, Druid of Eilistraee.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Cold Fire Frozen Spirit
IcePhoenix.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Elarin tells you 'heh 'with allies like Desh, lets just not zone''
Thanuk group-says 'btw u all get to tell everyone u popped my cherry now:)'
8 months now, and i'm still intimidated. but i have fun and like to imagine i do ok at it now.
but it is hard for newbies.
donno what all we can do cept recruit
Deshie
------------------
Deshana Al'Medin, Druid of Eilistraee.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Cold Fire Frozen Spirit
IcePhoenix.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Elarin tells you 'heh 'with allies like Desh, lets just not zone''
Thanuk group-says 'btw u all get to tell everyone u popped my cherry now:)'
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
i, for one, am mostly sad that there won't be a pwipe. racing around TP and sedawis and goblin caves and split shield and graveyard and SWD mobs after the pwipe was great fun. sadly, this won't happen - and i can't complain. the powergamers who play for the eq would probably be bent out of shape like you wouldn't imagine.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Didnt you just do that last year? I can understand a pwipe, but to wipe every year is !good. Like 3-4 years, after people have been the same way for a while and the mud has changed significantly a wipe is understandable, start fresh under the new conditions and all, but to wipe every year or 18 months is like leveling to 50, delete self, level to 50, delete self,....
------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'
i, for one, am mostly sad that there won't be a pwipe. racing around TP and sedawis and goblin caves and split shield and graveyard and SWD mobs after the pwipe was great fun. sadly, this won't happen - and i can't complain. the powergamers who play for the eq would probably be bent out of shape like you wouldn't imagine.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Didnt you just do that last year? I can understand a pwipe, but to wipe every year is !good. Like 3-4 years, after people have been the same way for a while and the mud has changed significantly a wipe is understandable, start fresh under the new conditions and all, but to wipe every year or 18 months is like leveling to 50, delete self, level to 50, delete self,....
------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Deshana:
donno what all we can do cept recruit
Deshie
[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
give them pic of thanuk's mullet and we'll have them hicks mudding in swarms.
[This message has been edited by sok (edited 12-16-2002).]
donno what all we can do cept recruit
Deshie
[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
give them pic of thanuk's mullet and we'll have them hicks mudding in swarms.
[This message has been edited by sok (edited 12-16-2002).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by sok:
<B> give them pic of thanuk's mullet and we'll have them hicks mudding in swarms.
[This message has been edited by sok (edited 12-16-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
i assure u, i seen nukkie in rl and he does not have mullet. his mom does.
<B> give them pic of thanuk's mullet and we'll have them hicks mudding in swarms.
[This message has been edited by sok (edited 12-16-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
i assure u, i seen nukkie in rl and he does not have mullet. his mom does.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B> Didnt you just do that last year? I can understand a pwipe, but to wipe every year is !good. Like 3-4 years, after people have been the same way for a while and the mud has changed significantly a wipe is understandable, start fresh under the new conditions and all, but to wipe every year or 18 months is like leveling to 50, delete self, level to 50, delete self,....
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
it's gonna be 2 years in a few months, but i really hope they work something out. i have a question about equipment downgrades and stuff, too.
why did they nerf hit/dam eq, but not hp eq?
-kwirl, still hoping that maybe sojourn won't wipe, but hey - if it closes and toril2 comes around . . .
<B> Didnt you just do that last year? I can understand a pwipe, but to wipe every year is !good. Like 3-4 years, after people have been the same way for a while and the mud has changed significantly a wipe is understandable, start fresh under the new conditions and all, but to wipe every year or 18 months is like leveling to 50, delete self, level to 50, delete self,....
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
it's gonna be 2 years in a few months, but i really hope they work something out. i have a question about equipment downgrades and stuff, too.
why did they nerf hit/dam eq, but not hp eq?
-kwirl, still hoping that maybe sojourn won't wipe, but hey - if it closes and toril2 comes around . . .
Why must EQ be down graded ?
is it when 4 people have gythka it's fine but when 24 people have one it's power is suddenly too much ?
why do zones need to be made harder?
is it becouse when Todreal or zoldren or Gormal or Touk do Jot the first time it is hard for them but the 40th time it isn't anymore. So it must be made harder? what about Alldevar (I made this name up) his 1st time in jot was touk's 41st doesn't alldevar deserve to see jot the way it was?
why can't we just keep adding zones to the mud I've been here 6 years but due to the fact I can't mud 10 hours at a time regularly I havn't done alot of cool zones why should I and others like me be denied the chance others have had?
please don't take this as a flame I just want to make a point and see what the responce is in the hope of helping the mud.
is it when 4 people have gythka it's fine but when 24 people have one it's power is suddenly too much ?
why do zones need to be made harder?
is it becouse when Todreal or zoldren or Gormal or Touk do Jot the first time it is hard for them but the 40th time it isn't anymore. So it must be made harder? what about Alldevar (I made this name up) his 1st time in jot was touk's 41st doesn't alldevar deserve to see jot the way it was?
why can't we just keep adding zones to the mud I've been here 6 years but due to the fact I can't mud 10 hours at a time regularly I havn't done alot of cool zones why should I and others like me be denied the chance others have had?
please don't take this as a flame I just want to make a point and see what the responce is in the hope of helping the mud.
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