Downgrade This Stuff

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thanuk
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Downgrade This Stuff

Postby thanuk » Wed Dec 11, 2002 6:52 pm

Ok here is a list of eq that i think is too easy to get for the stats it has. This is just off the top of my head and im at work, so it is going to be incomplete, so post your own ideas as well.

amy ring
eldritch ring
elemental control ring
ET orb
All ET earrings
planes eyepatch
ogrehides
obsidian skull earring
wrist razors
all vault eq
all starsilver eq except platemail cuz that fight is fuggin hard
adamantium neck guard
gemstone ring
falcon boots
tf chain
darkstone amulet
bodycloak from MD
GCD
diamondine earring

Thats all i can think of right now, but im sure there is more. If everyone has 1 or 2 of the same item, then its either too powerful, too easy to get, or both. Downgrading the standard package eq is a good step toward eliminating the cookie cutter factor on the mud.


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moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Wed Dec 11, 2002 7:13 pm

I don't think MD eq needs downgrade, by and large, since it's fairly hard to do.

Similarly, I don't think addy neckguards need downgrades.

GCD and things which can arguably be done by a small group with little hassle, perhaps should be looked at.

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Postby Dalar » Wed Dec 11, 2002 7:17 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B>I don't think MD eq needs downgrade, by and large, since it's fairly hard to do.

Similarly, I don't think addy neckguards need downgrades.

GCD and things which can arguably be done by a small group with little hassle, perhaps should be looked at.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<img src = "http://home.earthlink.net/~dartanpics82/AreYouForReal.jpg
">

any zone that has lureable fights or one-3 mobs in a room are hella easy. MD is easy b/c u kill a barbazu, mem. kill anothe barbazu mem. oh look pit fiend. he doesnt' track anymore so he's hella easy. nagas fight is easy. lichlord is the only hard fight b/c of the proc. other than that if u have an illu it's easy. what's hard? bronze citadel, avernus, clouds (argubly), some of hulburg due to procs, muspelheim, and some other zones i won't bother to mention. the eq in the hard zones are on par with the eq from easy zones (TF/Brass/Crypts/Jot)

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moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Wed Dec 11, 2002 7:32 pm

Hm. So you think SF is too easy for the addy?

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Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Dec 11, 2002 7:33 pm

So why don't you write up a system where top notch gear goes into the most difficult zones and the rest is downgraded? Rate the zones easy to difficult and consider the gear available in the zone.

TF is a rather large time investment for a small amount of gear, that might be considered as well.
thanuk
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Postby thanuk » Wed Dec 11, 2002 7:34 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B>I don't think MD eq needs downgrade, by and large, since it's fairly hard to do.

Similarly, I don't think addy neckguards need downgrades.

GCD and things which can arguably be done by a small group with little hassle, perhaps should be looked at.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Also understand mori that i dont think that this eq should all become useless, just not as good. MD is a fairly hard zone, so it should yield fairly good eq. There still needs to be room to make eq better than stuff from MD that is harder to get. Same with adamantium neck guard, its not so much the difficulty of the zone as the fact that there is little room to make a neck item that is better than adamantium neck guard, although there is plenty of room to make harder zones than SF. In my opinion we have hit the ceiling on how good the eq can be, so its time to bring the easy to get eq back to scale as the zones continue to get harder.

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moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Wed Dec 11, 2002 7:40 pm

Hm. There's plenty of room to make a 'better' neck guard than addy neck, although it may not be 100% all purpose as people seem to think addy neck is. Heck, vs melee, for mages I can name something much easier to get that's better than addy neck. But sure, by all means knock it down 5 hps or something if you feel it absolutely has to be done. (I wear one, but I'm down with that.)

Downgrading cookie cutter fact0r? I'm all for it.

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Postby Tanji Smanji » Wed Dec 11, 2002 7:45 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B>Ok here is a list of eq that i think is too easy to get for the stats it has. This is just off the top of my head and im at work, so it is going to be incomplete, so post your own ideas as well.

amy ring

Make a non-pink version and no tank alive will wear this.

eldritch ring

Make a +75 hps !warrior/rogue ring without the -9str.

elemental control ring

This is fine. Has several upgrades so is a decent stepping stone.

ET orb
All ET earrings

7-10 hps, rest stays. Shrug

planes eyepatch

Agree, dunno how though. Down with transient gear!

ogrehides

Nah. There's better out there.

obsidian skull earring

Again, better out there.

wrist razors

Make a harder to get version with 8ish AC in a suitably harder zone.

all vault eq

Nah, good risk v. reward and good zone for smaller or lower lvl groups.

all starsilver eq except platemail cuz that fight is fuggin hard

Or make Sleeves fight actually hard again.

adamantium neck guard

Put a few lvl 55+ wraithform clerics that are good aligned in that room, then see how easy it is for you!

gemstone ring

Upgrade lusties!

falcon boots

Could handle 15 hps and would be a good spot to add a harder to get top lvl item.

tf chain

Why?

darkstone amulet

Nah, there's several things better.

bodycloak from MD

Again, many things are better.

GCD

Agree. 3d3 at most.

diamondine earring

I'd rather see Dred turned into a difficult fight aside from having to beat the pop getting there.

My opinions, anyone else?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



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Postby thanuk » Wed Dec 11, 2002 7:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashiwi:
<B>So why don't you write up a system where top notch gear goes into the most difficult zones and the rest is downgraded? Rate the zones easy to difficult and consider the gear available in the zone.

TF is a rather large time investment for a small amount of gear, that might be considered as well.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok well its hard to put the zones in numerical order, but i can break it into 3 tiers for you of easy, medium, and hard

Hard: Tiamat, Bronze Citadel, Muspelhiem invasion, Jot invasion, Hulburg, some places i cant go to like hyssk vault probably fit in here as well.

Regular muspelhiem, clouds, MD, and scorps are on the border, as they are the hardest of the medium zones or the easiest of the hard zones. they're like the upper-middle class of sojourn

Medium: Air/fire plane, cave city, avernus, jot.

Easy: Astral, vault, brass, tf, sf, ET, SG, UD, SH, Oakvale, MS, gith, meilech, ribcage, crypts, a bunch of others i cant think of right now.

TF is only a large time investment if you insist on clearing the swamp btw. I dont neccessarily think that all the eq from the easier zones need downgrading. I do however think that anything from a zone i marked as easy or medium should not be the hands down best peice of eq available in it's slot. And again, you have to realize where the ceiling is for a particular item. You cant make a ring much better than 60 hps, so you cant have a 60 hps ring in an easy zone. There needs to be room for improvement on eq, and theres just not much room left for items to get better than the ones i listed earlier for downgrading.

Edit: Added some zones i fergot the first time

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[This message has been edited by thanuk (edited 12-11-2002).]
Risaros
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Postby Risaros » Wed Dec 11, 2002 7:54 pm

Put more hitter/tank gear up, stop picking on us poor casters.

[This message has been edited by Risaros (edited 12-11-2002).]
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Postby thanuk » Wed Dec 11, 2002 8:05 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Risaros:
<B>Put more hitter/tank gear up, stop picking on us poor casters.

[This message has been edited by Risaros (edited 12-11-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

uhm, its about half and half. Maybe sauk dagger too, or just make it so you actually have to kill ALL the mobs that load at the end instead of leaving them to kill the n00bs(mutter, hi5 lilithelle for practically soloing). But most tank gear is legitimately difficult, or at least what i wear. here:
war helm of conquest <-- hard quest
glyphs of power <-- hard zone, not that good anyway
diamondine earring <-- on the list
flaming earring <-- not that good
mask of night <-- rare in hard zone
cloak of render fur <-- pain in the ass to get
amulet of combat <-- rare in a hard zone
chlora armor <-- above avg nothing special
icicles cloak <-- hard to find, not that much better than other stuff
roots belt <-- standard for all but mages
a rune covered pair of leather sleeves <-- from SS (whistle)
wrist razors <-- on the list
green dragonscale gaunts <-- double quest0r
amethyst rings <-- on the list
dread gythka <-- pain in the ass quest
or tempos shield
and sauk dagger <-- pain in the ass quests, shield not that good
djinn battle greaves <-- hard and rare
demonscale boots <-- not so good


Again feel free to post any eq that i may have missed that you feel needs downgrading. Im not tryin to pick out any particular class, i think downgrades across the board are in order.




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Dalar
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Postby Dalar » Wed Dec 11, 2002 8:06 pm

<img src = "http://www.xs4all.nl/~bigron/mm-hm-02.gif">
stop responding in bold Tanji!

jot invasion isn't hard nuk. have u been there in soj3? we clear that crap faster than manscorps sometimes.

downgrade seashells. they're so easy and makes everything else look crappy.

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[This message has been edited by Dalar (edited 12-11-2002).]
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Postby Malacar » Wed Dec 11, 2002 8:30 pm

I think Diamondine is fine the way it is.

You have to kill Quaturac and fight thru the entire one to get to it. I don't see the issue there.

Agree on most everything else. Instead of downgrading eq to match the fight, upgrade the fight to match the eq.

Jabber fight is hit or miss, though I agree eldritch is a bit kickass for the difficulty. Not going to argue there.

ogrehides are crap, i won't wear them, and they are needed by both hitters for a quest, and those that have poor con scores. I don't think they are overpowered.

i dun see the point of downgrading falcon boots, but hey, whatever floats yer boat. They are needed in a couple of quests, and tons of people wear them. Make them too hard, and you make those quests truly suck, instead of moderately suck.

tanji pretty much hit everything else on the head.

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Postby thanuk » Wed Dec 11, 2002 8:39 pm

jot invasion isnt what it used to be, but it certainly isnt easy. there is also serious spank potential. Maybe it could use some juicing, but its far from a cake run.

As for diamondine, its the best you can hope for. You cant conceivably make an earring better than 2 dam 15 hps. And compare getting a dimaondine to getting like ruby dragonscale from clouds, which is only 2 hit 10 hps. if diamondine was 2 dam 10 hps everyone would still wear them, but you could still come up with something better than that to put in a harder zone somewhere down the road. Same thinking on the falcon boots, they are nice but no room for improvement and not so hard to get.

The reason i suggest downgrading eq instead of upgrading fights is because it will create room for better items. With more room to work with, maybe the gods can increase the rewards for some of those long impossible quests and still have room to put a spanky item in a zone that gets implemented 6 months from now. If we upgrade the fights, sure the eq becomes harder to get and there is balance for right now, but theres still no room for upward mobility in the reward department later down the line.

Btw i am EXTREMELY bored at work so i will be responding to this thread every 15 minutes or so until i can go home.

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Postby Dalar » Wed Dec 11, 2002 8:42 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Malacar:
<B>I think Diamondine is fine the way it is.

You have to kill Quaturac and fight thru the entire one to get to it. I don't see the issue there.

Agree on most everything else. Instead of downgrading eq to match the fight, upgrade the fight to match the eq.

Jabber fight is hit or miss, though I agree eldritch is a bit kickass for the difficulty. Not going to argue there.

ogrehides are crap, i won't wear them, and they are needed by both hitters for a quest, and those that have poor con scores. I don't think they are overpowered.

i dun see the point of downgrading falcon boots, but hey, whatever floats yer boat. They are needed in a couple of quests, and tons of people wear them. Make them too hard, and you make those quests truly suck, instead of moderately suck.

tanji pretty much hit everything else on the head.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

just make falcons 12 hp. 20 hp and -4 sv spell makes them the best caster boots in game with nothing to compare it with. except for those ugly hulburg boots

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Dalar
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Postby Dalar » Wed Dec 11, 2002 8:50 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B>jot invasion isnt what it used to be, but it certainly isnt easy. there is also serious spank potential. Maybe it could use some juicing, but its far from a cake run.

As for diamondine, its the best you can hope for. You cant conceivably make an earring better than 2 dam 15 hps. And compare getting a dimaondine to getting like ruby dragonscale from clouds, which is only 2 hit 10 hps. if diamondine was 2 dam 10 hps everyone would still wear them, but you could still come up with something better than that to put in a harder zone somewhere down the road. Same thinking on the falcon boots, they are nice but no room for improvement and not so hard to get.

The reason i suggest downgrading eq instead of upgrading fights is because it will create room for better items. With more room to work with, maybe the gods can increase the rewards for some of those long impossible quests and still have room to put a spanky item in a zone that gets implemented 6 months from now. If we upgrade the fights, sure the eq becomes harder to get and there is balance for right now, but theres still no room for upward mobility in the reward department later down the line.

Btw i am EXTREMELY bored at work so i will be responding to this thread every 15 minutes or so until i can go home.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i agree fully with what you just said Thanuk. someone please shoot me.

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Postby Corth » Wed Dec 11, 2002 8:57 pm

I agree with thanuk. Id rather see lots of variety in zones than all zones being the same level of difficulty. Dont change zones to justify the eq you get from them. Change the eq based upon the zone.

Just a few comments on specific items:

Diamondine: It could lose 10 hps and still be the best tank earring in the game currently. There is also another reason to get past quturac: gauntlets of power. Quturac isn't hard anyway. I'd say give it a severe downgrade or move it to a harder zone or quest.

Eldritch: It could lose 10hps and people will still kill jabberwock for it. Especially if amethyst rings were taken out, put in a harder zone, or made !mage/cleric. Put a 75hp mage/cleric ring in bronze citadel and now you have fixed two problems.

Falcon boots: There are 20hp boots in east MD btw which are easier to get than falcons. If you downgrade falcons, those would need to get the treatment too. I see no reason why they both shouldn't be made into 15hps. You still have a reason to get them, but then you could also put in a 20hp pair in a difficult place.

Sapphire belt: Get rid of this old/new dichotomy. Give it a big downgrade and make them all nobits again. Something like 25hps +9 Str would still make it one the best in the game (comparable to jot invasion belt), while allowing room for future improvement. Use the old ansi please Image

Starsilver arm eq: way way overpowered. The second this item went in it because the end all and be all of caster arm gear. The fight isn't all that difficult. You could never justify putting a better, or even comparable item into the game. Downgrade this thing to slightly better than deep blue sleeves.

I cant comment well on tank/melee eq so i'm just going to limit myself to the above caster items...

Corth

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Postby Malacar » Wed Dec 11, 2002 9:07 pm

If you gank sapphires belt, I am going to cry.. I use it on my tank. *sniffle*

I think that old sapphires belt should be a rare (10%) load in place of the new sapphire belt. Just make them hard to get. That or place the old one in a superhard rareload of roots.

Actually, if you made a lot of zones have a rareload version with this eq, problem solved.. Make the normal load much much less powerful as listed above (quest items notwithstanding of course), and the better (current or close to current) version on the rare version..

*shrug* Just tossing out ideas.

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Postby moritheil » Wed Dec 11, 2002 9:41 pm

I'm just going to point out that those who zone most often and are most uber are, in general, the loudest voices for downgrades of existing zone eq. I'm wondering if that's the intent.

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Corth
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Postby Corth » Wed Dec 11, 2002 9:42 pm

Heh, you are right mori. And its interesting to me how your seeing people advocate downgrades on eq they are themselves wearing. That says a lot as far as i am concerned.

Corth

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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Dec 11, 2002 9:44 pm

Phaerimm hide sleeves?
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Postby Dugmaren » Wed Dec 11, 2002 10:02 pm

Interesting debate.

If people feel up to it, post a little list of;

a) on a scale 1-10, where does each zone fall, further, is anything 10 atm? (Lets assume 10 yields the best equipment concievable, and therefor, if you want equipment to be more powerful, we'd have to make harder zones to represent the risk factor)

b) add to a), an average time to complete the zone with a standard group.

c) A list of all the slots and how powerful you think the most powerful equipment should be in that slot.

Dug (or you can email it toukage@hotmail.com)
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Postby moritheil » Wed Dec 11, 2002 10:12 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>Heh, you are right mori. And its interesting to me how your seeing people advocate downgrades on eq they are themselves wearing. That says a lot as far as i am concerned.

Corth
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My point is, by doing this, we may be further screwing over those who mud seldom, and thus further shrinking the pbase (sound similar to an unmentionable mud, anyone?)

It's no big deal if you zone daily to do zones to replace eq. It's a bigger deal if you zone once a month.

I know that you're all thinking about the people who are on all the time, and are irritated that there are no new worthwhile challenges. But how many people who are borderline about Soj are gonna say 'damnit, ok, now I really don't have the time to do this?'

Do you WANT to get rid of them? I mean, is that the point? Because in my view, this move you're all contemplating right here isn't going to get rid of eq inflation. It's going to last maybe half a year to a year until everyone does the newer, badder zones, and then they can all complain that again there is no challenge, and thanuk's allegorical mountain has leveled off into a plateau.

There's another way.

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Postby Zen » Wed Dec 11, 2002 10:22 pm

Downgrading eq solves nothing, and only hurts newbies. Everyone seems to have forgotten the day when most of this eq was difficult to get. The fact that there are more high level characters with massive upper end eq out there than ever before doesn't necessarily mean that zones and eq need to be downgraded.

-Lorgan

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Postby thanuk » Wed Dec 11, 2002 10:37 pm

You all seem to be assuming i want every peice of eq i listed shot to shit and tossed on the scrap heap, which i assure you is not the case. Is a 40 hps amethyst ring not workable? Its completely zoneworthy, and still leaves room for improvement. Lets say someone zones once a month, after all this eq downgrading, they wake up one day and decide to log on, only to notice that their character has lost say, 100 hps, and either -5 spells and bre or like 3/5 hit/dam. But everyone else has lost it as well. Does this destroy their character? By no means. Does it mean they can no longer play this game? Definately not. It does mean that they will be more likely to die, which isnt necessarily a bad thing. It also means that even if they are going up the same ramp the rest of us are, there will be something more waiting for them when they catch up. Look im a pretty decked warrior, im not the best, but im pretty decked. 3 months from now, someone else could be just as decked or moreso than i am, even though for now they are sitting on the ship in TGs and tiny silver rings. And ill still be in the same place. Then this other dude, who is now just as badass as me will say "ok thanuk. When i was a midlevel warrior, i looked at you and said thats where i wanna be. Now im here. Where do i go from that?" And what the hell am i gonna tell him, go roll an alt because your done?

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Postby thanuk » Wed Dec 11, 2002 10:39 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B>I'm just going to point out that those who zone most often and are most uber are, in general, the loudest voices for downgrades of existing zone eq. I'm wondering if that's the intent.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im just going to point out that this thread has only existed for 3.5 hours.


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Postby Dalar » Wed Dec 11, 2002 10:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B> My point is, by doing this, we may be further screwing over those who mud seldom, and thus further shrinking the pbase (sound similar to an unmentionable mud, anyone?)

It's no big deal if you zone daily to do zones to replace eq. It's a bigger deal if you zone once a month.

I know that you're all thinking about the people who are on all the time, and are irritated that there are no new worthwhile challenges. But how many people who are borderline about Soj are gonna say 'damnit, ok, now I really don't have the time to do this?'

Do you WANT to get rid of them?</B> I mean, is that the point? Because in my view, this move you're all contemplating right here isn't going to get rid of eq inflation. It's going to last maybe half a year to a year until everyone does the newer, badder zones, and then they can all complain that again there is no challenge, and thanuk's allegorical mountain has leveled off into a plateau.

There's another way.

</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

so you want gods to cater to the people who seldom play? they should be thinking about the people who are playing right now. downgrading eq in zones that are hella easy will only help balance. having people enter this game, level up hella quick from powerexp (smoke and ds) and then slap on the best eq will make them run out of this game faster than if there were more stepping stones. if you want a perfect example of this, look at everquest. do you think people will keep playing if they don't make a new high end game? in soj3's case gods don't want to add on to the high end game. making more stepping stones is the only other solution. also keep in mind that there are players who play everyday and want an extra challenge. i for one wouldn't want to be doing brass and tf every single day like what you have been doing.


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Postby Dalar » Wed Dec 11, 2002 10:54 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zen:
<B>Downgrading eq solves nothing, and only hurts newbies. Everyone seems to have forgotten the day when most of this eq was difficult to get. The fact that there are more high level characters with massive upper end eq out there than ever before doesn't necessarily mean that zones and eq need to be downgraded.

-Lorgan

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

of course it means that zones and eq need to be downgraded. alot of these zones were designed during an era where melee damage was king and room silence was the only way. now we have caster damage and targeted silence. players just got hella buff so the eq is hella easy to get.
downgrading this and that will only remove around a max of 100 hp and -20 ac. all of this can be received via spells. what we need is to make a high end game so people have something to strive for, otherwise people are gonna get burned out with doing repetitive stuff like brass tf clouds etc.

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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Dec 11, 2002 10:57 pm

Actually, both Thanuk and Mori have very valid points (I'll wake up in the morning and know that agreeing with Mori was only a bad dream). You can downgrade all you want and say 'ahhh, we've done great work,' but in a few months we're going to be right back where we are now. People are going to be complaining about how the uber zones are too easy. When you have a 40 dam roll, coupled with 21 svs on both spell and breath, -100 AC or close depending on class, plus a bunch of hps (and the hps is what i'm short on atm, but I don't need it zoning as much as most seem to think), steamrolling vault, jot, brass, etc. isn't that hard, especially with players who have been there in the roles they're playing a few dozen times before.

On the other hand, where exactly do we go from here? I've been playing the same char since the beginning of wipe, and while I'm not as driven as some and don't have everything I could have, I can still see the cap at the end of the tunnel. Not everybody is interested in the same things, and eventually it's all going to wear thin.

Sigh... who knows the answer?

::Ashiwi tugs at her earlobe and waves::
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Postby Dalar » Wed Dec 11, 2002 11:01 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dugmaren:
<B>Interesting debate.

If people feel up to it, post a little list of;

a) on a scale 1-10, where does each zone fall, further, is anything 10 atm? (Lets assume 10 yields the best equipment concievable, and therefor, if you want equipment to be more powerful, we'd have to make harder zones to represent the risk factor)

b) add to a), an average time to complete the zone with a standard group.

c) A list of all the slots and how powerful you think the most powerful equipment should be in that slot.

Dug (or you can email it toukage@hotmail.com)</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

this is very debateable to be in just one thread.... maybe a new forum for zone feedback?


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Dalar
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Postby Dalar » Wed Dec 11, 2002 11:07 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashiwi:
<B>Actually, both Thanuk and Mori have very valid points (I'll wake up in the morning and know that agreeing with Mori was only a bad dream). You can downgrade all you want and say 'ahhh, we've done great work,' but in a few months we're going to be right back where we are now. People are going to be complaining about how the uber zones are too easy. When you have a 40 dam roll, coupled with 21 svs on both spell and breath, -100 AC or close depending on class, plus a bunch of hps (and the hps is what i'm short on atm, but I don't need it zoning as much as most seem to think), steamrolling vault, jot, brass, etc. isn't that hard, especially with players who have been there in the roles they're playing a few dozen times before.

On the other hand, where exactly do we go from here? I've been playing the same char since the beginning of wipe, and while I'm not as driven as some and don't have everything I could have, I can still see the cap at the end of the tunnel. Not everybody is interested in the same things, and eventually it's all going to wear thin.

Sigh... who knows the answer?

::Ashiwi tugs at her earlobe and waves::</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

so you're saying we're going to have people doing hulburg and bronze citadel alot within the next few months to equip them with the best eq? hell no. the reality is this. once upon a time tf/brass/blah blah blah were hard. they're conquered easily now. downgrading all that eq (which shouldn't have been so good b/c they are at the caps at power level 7 zones) will just correct a mistake that was made. downgrading alot of eq will make/give room for eq in power level 10 zones some valid worth. if you want to play this game in a casual manner you can stay at power level 7 zones. if you want to powergame you go to hard stuff like bronze citadel and hulburg. this problem will not repeat itself in "a few months". look at how many times hulburg has been done. look at how many times bronze citadel has been done. hulburg around 5-10. bc around 3 times completed. this is in the span of months.

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Postby thanuk » Wed Dec 11, 2002 11:21 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashiwi:
<B>Actually, both Thanuk and Mori have very valid points (I'll wake up in the morning and know that agreeing with Mori was only a bad dream). You can downgrade all you want and say 'ahhh, we've done great work,' but in a few months we're going to be right back where we are now. People are going to be complaining about how the uber zones are too easy. When you have a 40 dam roll, coupled with 21 svs on both spell and breath, -100 AC or close depending on class, plus a bunch of hps (and the hps is what i'm short on atm, but I don't need it zoning as much as most seem to think), steamrolling vault, jot, brass, etc. isn't that hard, especially with players who have been there in the roles they're playing a few dozen times before.

On the other hand, where exactly do we go from here? I've been playing the same char since the beginning of wipe, and while I'm not as driven as some and don't have everything I could have, I can still see the cap at the end of the tunnel. Not everybody is interested in the same things, and eventually it's all going to wear thin.

Sigh... who knows the answer?

::Ashiwi tugs at her earlobe and waves::</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree entirely. In fact, i doubt any eq will need downgrading for a number of years if this is handled well. When you have been there a dozen times, you SHOULD steamroll jot vault brass etc etc, those were the hard zones which spawned the newer harder zones, etc etc. It is a progression. Once you mastered the easy zones, you move up to the next rung. The eq you have and its stats should reflect that. This problem wont come up again in 6 months unless the mud adds like 8 highlevel zones in the next 6 months and they are all as easy as the older zones. By downgrading existing eq, it doesnt necessarily mean that newer, better, harder to get eq must immedately come into the game. It just leaves room for down the road that it CAN come in the game. It leaves the infinite possibility to improve without setting a stone limit on where you can get and have a wall there. But that limit will inevitably exist when the best eq comes from the easiest possible zones, and the harder fights yield inferior rewards to what was gotten for less effort.
If the better fruit wasnt at the top of the trees, then giraffes wouldnt have such long necks. In order to evolve, you must need a reason to evolve.

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Postby Yayaril » Wed Dec 11, 2002 11:30 pm

You know, it'd be a lot easier to leave the current equipment alone and just make the stuff from the new, harder zones better. This way- nobody feels like they wasted their time doing CC repeatedly to get the best earring and then their earring got downgraded. Nobody will feel like it was a waste dying repeatedly to jabberwock and suffering his annoying procs to get that eldritch. Nobody will feel it was a waste. Yet, there will still be that next harder tier of equipment for them to get. Of course, like what Ashiwi said- there will always be those few who achieve all the best gear there is to get. No matter how much you downgrade the regular equipment or upgrade the stuff in the uber zones. No matter how fast you add new zones in with new more powerful gear, there will eventually be a point where you get it all.

There is only delaying that point. That point is where you put your character away and start a new character. Then you go and equip this new character and level up this new character and have the same fun you did equipping and leveling up your first character. Then when this character has nothing left to gain- you do it again. When you finally get bored of doing this, you try a different way to have fun. If all the different ways of having fun on Sojourn3 are exhausted, then guess what- it's time to find a new pastime, because it'd be a shame to have a pastime that isn't amusing.

I think this thread and the invoker thread have something in common. They're both pointing fingers at 'problems' that don't really exist. Gear wasn't too powerful a few months ago, why is it now? I think people are just getting bored with the game, and want to figure out what the problem is. It isn't invokers- it isn't equipment- It's the fact you've been doing these zones so much, they get kind of old. You've been playing so much, it gets kind of old.

Say you remove invokers and say you downgraded all the gear. Then you go do bronze citadel a dozen times until you have the best gear again- without the aid of invokers. Then what do you do? All this need for change points to the want to make Sojourn3 different. That's fine. You want the game to be the best it can. Or is it that you're just a tad bit bored and want it to be a completely different game?

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-Yayaril
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Postby Dalar » Wed Dec 11, 2002 11:35 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dugmaren:
<B>Interesting debate.

If people feel up to it, post a little list of;

a) on a scale 1-10, where does each zone fall, further, is anything 10 atm? (Lets assume 10 yields the best equipment concievable, and therefor, if you want equipment to be more powerful, we'd have to make harder zones to represent the risk factor)

b) add to a), an average time to complete the zone with a standard group.

c) A list of all the slots and how powerful you think the most powerful equipment should be in that slot.

Dug (or you can email it toukage@hotmail.com)</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

what's the range for the high level zones? I remember you telling me Jotunheim was 7 right? Note: don't know evil race zones like Yath Olath very well. By standard group i mean at least an invoker, enchanter, cleric, shaman, 3 warriors, rogue? If so,

Level 5: Havenport (GCD) 30 min
Level 6: SG, DK vault, IC vault, GN. around an hour each. GN is 20 min.
Level 7: Jotunheim, Tarsellion forest, ET, Air/Fire/Astral/Demi planes, Oakvale, Crypts, Brass, MD. If well done nothing more than 2 hours for each of these zones.

Level 8: Manscorpions, Muspelheim, Clouds, CC. 2-4 hours.

Level 9: Avernus/Bronze Citadel, Hulburg 4+. depending on how much u want to clear in hulburg.

Level 10: Tiamat. Better not have anything to do tomorrow morning.

Jotunheim: Easy grid, very low spank potential.
TF: Jabberwock is the only real hard mob, but with the right tactics is very easy. Currently people just charge without tactics which may lead to spanks.
ET: everything is lureable. with a good scout this zone can be done very casually. only real difficult fight can be entry into the final grid. since area damage is so good this isn't that big of a problem
Planes: so easy, just clear a bunch of easy mobs and you're done. only problem u can ever have is running into the boss mobs which is avoidable with a good scout.
Oakvale: my god this zone is so easy.
basically, level 7 zones can be done as soon as level 1-6 zones have been farmed for eq.

manscorpions: king fight, excavation tunnel site fight and noble fight really make this zone hard. after that, nothing much. if you can kill 10 giants in jot u can pretty much do the squad fights.

muspelheim: kililng 10 giants in one room is one thing. having to continually fight mobs that can crit 300+ on you sux. also dragons are mean. not too hard b/c it's teleportable, meaning u can shuttle people back in and stuff.

Clouds: grid fighting can be velly dangerous

CC: random fights own. beating repop time ownz too.

Hulburg: beholder procs and !teleport zone suck. at least there are teleportable rooms along the way to the end.
Avernus/Bronze Citadel: !teleport + spank = screwed

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Postby Dalar » Thu Dec 12, 2002 12:00 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yayaril:
You know, it'd be a lot easier to leave the current equipment alone and just make the stuff from the new, harder zones better. This way- nobody feels like they wasted their time doing CC repeatedly to get the best earring and then their earring got downgraded. Nobody will feel like it was a waste dying repeatedly to jabberwock and suffering his annoying procs to get that eldritch. Nobody will feel it was a waste. Yet, there will still be that next harder tier of equipment for them to get. Of course, like what Ashiwi said- there will always be those few who achieve all the best gear there is to get. No matter how much you downgrade the regular equipment or upgrade the stuff in the uber zones. No matter how fast you add new zones in with new more powerful gear, there will eventually be a point where you get it all.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The eq in some of these zones are way overpowered as it is. Isn't it weird that a nightshade is in bronze citadel? i'm not saying downgrade nightshade; there is eq in harder zones that can be obtained easily in an easier zone. putting all the "best" eq in easy zones screws up balance. TF is easy b/c it has low spank potential and teleportable. best ring in game. brass is easy b/c it has low spank potential. brass being !teleportable is irrelevant. muspelheim has tons of spank potential but it's teleportable. there should be some sort of risk vs reward considering those factors. right now there isn't.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
There is only delaying that point. That point is where you put your character away and start a new character. Then you go and equip this new character and level up this new character and have the same fun you did equipping and leveling up your first character. Then when this character has nothing left to gain- you do it again. When you finally get bored of doing this, you try a different way to have fun. If all the different ways of having fun on Sojourn3 are exhausted, then guess what- it's time to find a new pastime, because it'd be a shame to have a pastime that isn't amusing.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B>

Not everyone likes making alts and more alts. Making the game last longer by fixing the eq stepping stones would make those people stay that much longer.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
I think this thread and the invoker thread have something in common. They're both pointing fingers at 'problems' that don't really exist. Gear wasn't too powerful a few months ago, why is it now? I think people are just getting bored with the game, and want to figure out what the problem is. It isn't invokers- it isn't equipment- It's the fact you've been doing these zones so much, they get kind of old. You've been playing so much, it gets kind of old.

Say you remove invokers and say you downgraded all the gear. Then you go do bronze citadel a dozen times until you have the best gear again- without the aid of invokers. Then what do you do? All this need for change points to the want to make Sojourn3 different. That's fine. You want the game to be the best it can. Or is it that you're just a tad bit bored and want it to be a completely different game?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Leave invokers out of an eq balance thread. I always thought alot of eq was way too easy to get, i just never posted about it b/c i thought there was going ot be a 100 hp ring in the next tier of high level zones. Spending an hour in SF I got a ac 5 20 hp -1 sv spell neckguard. Spending 12 hours in BC (can easily be 6 hours next time) got me a -3 sv breath upgrade (woopy). When I saw that the next tier had unproportionable eq in it that's when I noticed (other people did too) the problem. It's just making room for high level zones. Remember when crypts went in? The eq was way too good and was downgraded to a decent risk vs reward. People got pissed but guess what? They still went back.

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Postby Tasan » Thu Dec 12, 2002 12:05 am

I should think that there are a lot of valid points here, however finding a workable solution that will last is going to be rough.

If I could have a minute of your time for a possible solution.

Right now the trend seems to be bigger badder zones for less and less equipment, but substantially better than previous equipment. From what I've read, BC has 4 or 5 items for people spending, 4-5 hours(best possible time in future?) to get, and even some of those were complained about. Hulburg is somewhat of a nightmare from a leading standpoint, as you have to figure out the key, as well as deal with a !tele zone.

What I would propose to become somewhat of a solution, is to open up new categories for equipment upgrades. Try to stay with me...

If for instance sv_sp was split into sv_fire, sv_light etc. it would allow for a wider variety of equipment to be made. This would be for very high end eq/zones, so adjusting previous equipment would be unneccesary(hopefully). As these items are put into zones, you could change fights to allow for the sv_fire or whatever to become incredibly useful, see example here:

Enclosed lava tunnel, whereby effects somewhat equal what fireplane is capable w/o prot fire now, only prot fire becomes capable of only protecting a characters equipment from poofing. So damage would slowly be incurred(on a scale determined by the sv_fire bonus say). That is just an example of an area affect. You could add things like this to mobs as well, have improved procs of fireballs or somesuch requiring saves of a certain type.

Granted this is a huge change, and would need a lot of discussion to tweak it to useable levels, but I think it merits some attention.

If you look at the way the mud has grown, it has always been by options. Whether it was new classes being added, or new skills, or different fights, it is always changing and leaving new options. Why not make a change towards opening equipment limits/zone creation towards new options as well.

It would probably be a bit of work to do, but I believe that a few options like this one(obviously there are other options like adding modifiers to skills or somesuch) will allow the mud to stay strong for years to come.

That's just 1 idea though.

Twinshadow

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Postby Zoldren » Thu Dec 12, 2002 12:07 am

saying somethig easy is relative to your group, lets just leave that at that

i do agree somethings need changed so it is more risk vs reward

zample i had to trade eldriches for amys because it was a) done by goodies w/in 5 min of boot, b) no evil group c) wrong time frame, i tryd for months

i still dont have most of the eq u listed and have been trying for months and i play 8hrs/day easy

jot is perfect both for eq and risk, it has a mixture of BOTH hitter and mage gear, which is super cool in its self, i have had GREAT groups that just smoked everything spank 2x in arow on thrym just because of proc

not everything is as it seems young padawan :P

just one point amys should be mage only, and leave spiders to you hitters, and spiders are easier to get, then again if war skills work you wouldnt need to wear hp as a war *lol* bah babbaling tired latter

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MoM-D
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Postby Bipple » Thu Dec 12, 2002 12:19 am

Leave all current stats alone on equip, add a third stat slot to all equip and play with that. Gives a huge boost to area gods ability to offer a different variety of equip and allows current equip to be modifed with both positve and negative effects. Problem solved.

Object 'sleeves starsilver chainmail', Item type: ARMOR
Item can be worn on: ARMS
Item will give you following abilities: NOBITS
Item is: MAGIC NOBURN NOLOCATE NO-WARRIOR NOBITS
Weight: 3, Value: 100000
AC-apply is 9
Can affect you as :
Affects : HITPOINTS By 27
Affects : SV_SPELL By -4
Affects : Int By -9
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Postby Corth » Thu Dec 12, 2002 12:22 am

Yayaril:

There has been a problem for a long time. Many of the basic zones on this mud, such as jot, brass, cc, tf, etc, were written when there were no such thing as illusionists, invokers, enchanters, elementalists, and liches. They were written before shaman had group heals, and before room silence was replaced by silence person. They were written when most damage came from single target melee classes such as monks.

The fact of the matter is many of the zones that we now feel are easy... jot being the best example, were once considered among the most difficult in the game. The items in those zones were given stats that accordingly, were also the best in the game.

We now have zones that were written with all these new classes and abilities in mind. They are much more challenging than the old zones. What some people are suggesting is that the eq in these old zones be downgraded so as to make it jibe with risk v. reward. Since those zones arent as difficult as they used to be, they shouldnt have items that are best in the game quality. Likewise, the new challenging zones should have the higher end top of the line eq... for no other reason than they are more challenging than the other zones. I think this idea makes perfect sense. Its not about any tension between power mudders and casual mudders or whatever, its simply balancing the mud and allowing it to grow.

People have been asking for YEARS that easier zones be introduced into the game. We dont want everything to be the most difficult. Well guess what, the old zones have become those easier zones we have been asking for. Its a GREAT thing that the mud has such diversity and that people in their high 30's and low 40's can goto zones. It used to be that only the power groups got to zone and everyone else traded for their leftovers. So the fact that the old zones are less difficult is actually a good thing. But lets stat the items in these old zones accordingly.

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby moritheil » Thu Dec 12, 2002 12:42 am

All I have to say is that the more time investment you require, the more people you drive away, and that soj will be increasingly isolated and clannish.

Look at GenoMUD, why'd they die? Because the same people kept playing on it and scheming to increase their challenges, and eventually it was ridiculous for a noob to even try to compete with them.

You all plan to be here when you're 80, and still competing hardcore with each other? I mean, that's really what it boils down to. You want to be better but haven't thought about what you're comparing it to.

In a way you're fighting with yourself. Can you win?

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Postby Dalar » Thu Dec 12, 2002 12:47 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bipple:
<B>Leave all current stats alone on equip, add a third stat slot to all equip and play with that. Gives a huge boost to area gods ability to offer a different variety of equip and allows current equip to be modifed with both positve and negative effects. Problem solved.

Object 'sleeves starsilver chainmail', Item type: ARMOR
Item can be worn on: ARMS
Item will give you following abilities: NOBITS
Item is: MAGIC NOBURN NOLOCATE NO-WARRIOR NOBITS
Weight: 3, Value: 100000
AC-apply is 9
Can affect you as :
Affects : HITPOINTS By 27
Affects : SV_SPELL By -4
Affects : Int By -9

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dugmaren's response to this was that a 3rd stat would be too powerful. I honestly don't think it is b/c hit/dam eq defintely needs that 3rd stat to balance it out. a 3/1 earring is lame compared to a 2 dam 15 hp earring or something of that line. Why? b/c i can wear alot of hit + stat or dam + stat and achieve a similar hit/dam roll and have better other stats.


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moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Thu Dec 12, 2002 12:56 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalar:
I always thought alot of eq was way too easy to get, i just never posted about it b/c i thought there was going ot be a 100 hp ring in the next tier of high level zones. Spending an hour in SF I got a ac 5 20 hp -1 sv spell neckguard. Spending 12 hours in BC (can easily be 6 hours next time) got me a -3 sv breath upgrade (woopy). When I saw that the next tier had unproportionable eq in it that's when I noticed (other people did too) the problem. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you're unhappy that it's getting to be exponential effort to increase stats instead of linear.

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Postby Dalar » Thu Dec 12, 2002 1:08 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B> So you're unhappy that it's getting to be exponential effort to increase stats instead of linear.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IT TOOK YOU THAT LONG TO FIGURE THAT OUT?!!?!?!?!??!

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Postby moritheil » Thu Dec 12, 2002 1:10 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalar:
<B> IT TOOK YOU THAT LONG TO FIGURE THAT OUT?!!?!?!?!??!
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I've suspected it for quite some time.

But I wanted to get a clear yes or no from you on it.

Now, what exactly is wrong? You want a challenge, so they make things get exponentially harder, and now you don't like it? Law of diminishing returns.

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Postby Gindipple » Thu Dec 12, 2002 1:15 am

Yayaril said what I'd say, see above post.

Downgrades are bad m'kay.


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Postby Sarell » Thu Dec 12, 2002 1:28 am

<b>"I think that old sapphires belt should be a rare (10%) load in place of the new sapphire belt. Just make them hard to get."<b>

What a fantastic idea!!! *hi5*


Disagree with too high stats on a fair few of those things.

One I do agree on is starsilver sleeves. And while at it, phaerim sleeves. Those things are cake. Was the star sleeves made !track 'cos of the horse thing? Personally I think the horse thing was harder to accomplish than the current hit and run fight. Phaerims are a piece of cake now comepared to other high end hitter sleeves. Once again, the quest is out!

Makes me kind of agree with the philosophy of pulling items out of game / downgrading them and letting old ones stay put. MD once struck fear into the hearts of mudders as did many a zone. The first trips there were horendous, however once a few succesful raids are worked out, someone has a map and a tactic for each fight it is no challenge.

Then again, I don't have a problem with the level of obtainable power for difficulty in the mud atm. Perhaps would like to see a couple of items that could be gotten for those people who play like nuts, make the items in BC really good, epic quests work well also except when the helm at then end turns out to be junk *mutter*.

Shrug, I like the mud atm, my main gripe is lvl 50 newbs with same gear as lvl 50 100pday players.

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Jhorr
Sojourner
Posts: 515
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Jhorr » Thu Dec 12, 2002 1:34 am

This is an interesting thread, revealing a complex problem with the mud that may, or may, not require a complex solution. I apologize in advance for my lengthy comment!

The problem here, as I understand it, refers to the fact that there is a ceiling effect in the current eq system. As Yayaril mentioned, those who are determined will eventually own the best gear. Downgrading current eq is not a permanent solution. The ceiling will be reached again and then we are back where we started. A more creative solution is required, if in fact this is actually a problem.

Consider this. The playability of Sojourn is at an all-time high. Who cares if it doesn't take 6 hours to do jot anymore? I don't. It's fun to log on for a few hours and complete several zones. I don't see this as a problem. In previous wipes, only the privileged few were able to "zone". Now zoning is common for an average player (because they have better eq and can survive better). This is not a problem. In fact, playability is a desired quality for any game. Incidentally, other reasons why zones are easier now are the advent of certain classes and skills, as well as the fact that the mud is overall more stable.

One point mentioned that I disagree with is the lack of a "high end game". In fact, there already is a "high end game" for those of us at the upper end of the eq curve. It's found in the form of long quests like the one Verarb did and elite zones like Bronze Citadel, Hulburg, etc. Those at the upper end of the eq curve should not expect a linear relationship between effort invested and reward received. The relationship between effort invested and reward received should be, and is currently, exponential and asymptotic.

A complex problem often requires a complex solution. If your kit is "maxxed out" you have a couple solutions to "your problem": (a) Declare victory, quit, and find a new game, (b) start over and play it again as a different character as Yayaril suggested, (c) expand your goals on the mud (learn and lead or even write new zones, start a guild, role-play, etc.), just to name a few.

If the admins really believe the eq ceiling is being reached, a more creative solution than downgrading eq has to be found. Muspelheim partially addresses this as it has expanded the idea of using "Fed-ex" quests to upgrade mundane mid-level eq. Furthermore, it has done this in a way that the eq received is rare and special. There are many uber items currently unquested there. One idea I've had for a long time is to expand the idea of questing for things other than eq (sort of like spell quests). For example, make challenging quests (lots of them) that will individualize one's character in small ways. This could be anything from granting new skills (in effect introducing multi-classing), titles, etc. Another idea is to make newer zones harder to get to by requiring a multi-step quest to enter them, for example.

My point is that to solve the ceiling "problem" being proposed here requires redefining the nature of what is "collected". For many, the goal is higher numbers (hit points, hit, dam, etc.). Under a finite system where the goal is upward movement on such a scale, the ceiling problem will always exist. However, this problem will only exist for the few with enough patience to reach it. Downgrading eq to lower the limits currently reachable won't solve anything in the long run. In fact, it will just piss people off because it will make them feel their rewards for valuable time invested were taken away from them. Why would they be motivated to reach the "next tier" of eq at that point, just to see it stripped again after another year?

MUD balance is a difficult thing to achieve as Miax has described elsewhere. Many different people play this game for many different reasons. For some it may be hard to believe, but collecting uber eq to be the most elite player out there is not a universal goal. Besides, the minimal changes to the items proposed won't make jot any harder, for example. People still get spanked there. People still get spanked in brass. People get spanked in ET as well for that matter. We just don't know it most of the time because admins don't global spank messages anymore, and spanks aren't as ugly because the mud isn't as unstable as it once was so people aren't losing eq as much.

Enough rambling, thanks for reading.....
Vahok
Sojourner
Posts: 525
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 6:01 am
Location: guelph,ontario,canada

Postby Vahok » Thu Dec 12, 2002 1:43 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B>All I have to say is that the more time investment you require, the more people you drive away, and that soj will be increasingly isolated and clannish.

Look at GenoMUD, why'd they die? Because the same people kept playing on it and scheming to increase their challenges, and eventually it was ridiculous for a noob to even try to compete with them.

You all plan to be here when you're 80, and still competing hardcore with each other? I mean, that's really what it boils down to. You want to be better but haven't thought about what you're comparing it to.

In a way you're fighting with yourself. Can you win?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I totally agree here. I think it's great that a lvl 38 character can, and does, go to these older zones (Jot, Brass, etc.) Do I care if a lvl 20 warrior has the same eq as me? Not really...I get to do the harder, and more enjoyable zones, due to my time put in here.

This debate will wage back and forth but ask yourselves this..."Do the mud gain anything by downgrading eq?" The elite players will still always have top of the line eq. Casual players eq will suffer, and possibly they could leave. If you downgrade amy rings for example, people will do either of these things:

* go do the harder zone and get the better ring
* suck it up and do nothing
* change ptimes or stop playing period

If somebody wants to have the all the amy rings they can handle, and do Jot over and over, let them. Personally, somedays I feel like a challenge, others ...gimme ET and lemme no-brainer the zone.

Many people wear lesser eq for ansi or role-play reasons. Many people strive to be "King of the Mountain" with eq. Many people do zones for their alts. Can we please them all and their needs? I doubt it...so my thought is, downgrading seems to hurt the casual, but valuable member of the mud. Just because I don't have 8hrs to spend an evening, should I be forced to wear Bloodstone bonemail and kill navy seaman for fun?

Kinda rambling and all over the map, but whatever....

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Meatshield
Dalar
Sojourner
Posts: 4905
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Dalar » Thu Dec 12, 2002 1:43 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B> No, I've suspected it for quite some time.

But I wanted to get a clear yes or no from you on it.

Now, what exactly is wrong? You want a challenge, so they make things get exponentially harder, and now you don't like it? Law of diminishing returns.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

man i hate repeating myself. look, this game, like many others, has 'stepping stones'. right now there are two problems. zones that have low spank potential and are teleportable and just so easy have eq that doesn't match the risk vs reward for zones that have high spank potential and aren't teleportable. the other problem is that we can't have eq inflation so there are hard caps set on eq. if gods won't remove the caps then the scale is broken. there will continue to be hard zones with the same eq as the easy zones and nobody will want to go to them. this isn't a guess, it's proven. many people can't go to bronze b/c the eq sucks, so the people who want to go for fun can't go. fixing the scale so that tf/brass/ET etc. have rewards that reflect their difficulty will let area gods built harder zones that people will actually go to. also, read corth's response to yayaril about generation gap in zones.

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Shevarash OOC: 'I never thought I'd long for Muma to be on OOC'
Dalar
Sojourner
Posts: 4905
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Dalar » Thu Dec 12, 2002 1:46 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarell:
<B><b>"I think that old sapphires belt should be a rare (10%) load in place of the new sapphire belt. Just make them hard to get."<b>

What a fantastic idea!!! *hi5*


Disagree with too high stats on a fair few of those things.

One I do agree on is starsilver sleeves. And while at it, phaerim sleeves. Those things are cake. Was the star sleeves made !track 'cos of the horse thing? Personally I think the horse thing was harder to accomplish than the current hit and run fight. Phaerims are a piece of cake now comepared to other high end hitter sleeves. Once again, the quest is out!

Makes me kind of agree with the philosophy of pulling items out of game / downgrading them and letting old ones stay put. MD once struck fear into the hearts of mudders as did many a zone. The first trips there were horendous, however once a few succesful raids are worked out, someone has a map and a tactic for each fight it is no challenge.

Then again, I don't have a problem with the level of obtainable power for difficulty in the mud atm. Perhaps would like to see a couple of items that could be gotten for those people who play like nuts, make the items in BC really good, epic quests work well also except when the helm at then end turns out to be junk *mutter*.

Shrug, I like the mud atm, my main gripe is lvl 50 newbs with same gear as lvl 50 100pday players.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i hate newbies like you and tanji who make their quote posts all bold!

i agree with "Shrug, I like the mud atm, my main gripe is lvl 50 newbs with same gear as lvl 50 100pday players." and that's my main drive for zone balance.


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Shevarash OOC: 'I never thought I'd long for Muma to be on OOC'

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