Downgrade This Stuff

Archive of the Sojourn3 Gameplay Discussion Forum.
Yayaril
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Postby Yayaril » Thu Dec 12, 2002 1:50 am

Thanks for the history lesson, Corth.

If you recall, I was following you when you led jot those hundreds of times over the years. The zone wasn't spanktified during Toril either. I mean, it isn't 'easy' but it isn't going to totally spank you every time you do it, thus you need a sitter. In fact, I think the zone got harder as they made changes- you used to lure and earthquake the pet dragon in loki's room. You can't just silence the room and smack away at the mobs.

I like my gear the way it is, and to downgrade it would make me feel that all the work I did to get it would have been a waste. I don't care if new and more powerful stuff gets added- great! Keep upping the power level. So what if zones like vault become easier and easier. Nobody complained that Havenport gear became really really easy to get when people were equipped with stuff from jot and brass. Yet, when I led Havenport with lower level characters, they had the time of their life. Who cares if the old 'uber' zones become stepping stones to the newer uber zones? It's a natural progression for the zones you regularly do to become 'easy fare' for you. However, there are people out there who have never done vault and it will be a challenge when they finally confront it. Mistakes will be made, and people will die.

Are those zones getting easier? Yes!

Why? Because everyone's getting more powerful.

Why is everyone getting more powerful? Because they are getting more experienced and playing the game. Gaining new treasures and strategies.

Is it normal for people to get more powerful as they go? Yes! It's the general trend of games. It'd be backwards for people to get weaker as they played.



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-Yayaril
Vahok
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Postby Vahok » Thu Dec 12, 2002 1:51 am

Oh yeah, on a side note...there are two rings with same stats. One comes from a zone that can be done in an hour, one comes from a zone that is hard, and is done in five hours....which would you have? Would you respect a player more for having the harder ring, or laugh at him for wasting his time?

More food for thought...mmm...food

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Meatshield
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Postby Todrael » Thu Dec 12, 2002 1:52 am

After reading Jhorr's post, I can't help but declare victory over the mud. Though I won't be quitting.

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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
Dalar
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Postby Dalar » Thu Dec 12, 2002 1:55 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jhorr:
<B>Consider this. The playability of Sojourn is at an all-time high. Who cares if it doesn't take 6 hours to do jot anymore? I don't. It's fun to log on for a few hours and complete several zones. I don't see this as a problem. In previous wipes, only the privileged few were able to "zone". Now zoning is common for an average player (because they have better eq and can survive better). This is not a problem. In fact, playability is a desired quality for any game. Incidentally, other reasons why zones are easier now are the advent of certain classes and skills, as well as the fact that the mud is overall more stable.

One point mentioned that I disagree with is the lack of a "high end game". In fact, there already is a "high end game" for those of us at the upper end of the eq curve. It's found in the form of long quests like the one Verarb did and elite zones like Bronze Citadel, Hulburg, etc. Those at the upper end of the eq curve should not expect a linear relationship between effort invested and reward received. The relationship between effort invested and reward received should be, and is currently, exponential and asymptotic.

A complex problem often requires a complex solution. If your kit is "maxxed out" you have a couple solutions to "your problem": (a) Declare victory, quit, and find a new game, (b) start over and play it again as a different character as Yayaril suggested, (c) expand your goals on the mud (learn and lead or even write new zones, start a guild, role-play, etc.), just to name a few.
Enough rambling, thanks for reading.....</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Old zones are way too easy now b/c they were designed in a different generation. Monk damage and room silence. Now we have 5x more damage b/c of area damage and targetted silence. This means zones that were once hard are now easy. The eq from those zones dont' reflect the difficulty. The difficulty of zones decreased while the eq caps stayed the same. Now we have harder zones but the same eq caps. Is this really that hard to see?


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Shevarash OOC: 'I never thought I'd long for Muma to be on OOC'
Dalar
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Postby Dalar » Thu Dec 12, 2002 2:02 am

Since very few people see the real problem and say have only seen "omg downgrading things is bad don't do it!" let me take the time to say this:

The eq caps aren't changing from what I've heard. There will be no such thing as 100 hp rings. This makes no room for better eq. Zones like TF Brass etc. have the best eq in it. This means risk vs reward can't be implemented unless you balance the easy zones. You can't make better eq which means people won't want to do harder zones/harder stuff b/c it's just not worth it.

As a high level player i find it very unfair to be doing hard quests and zones to get top notch eq while people like Moritheil get similar items with 4 hp less or one save less in easy mindless zones.

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Shevarash OOC: 'I never thought I'd long for Muma to be on OOC'

[This message has been edited by Dalar (edited 12-11-2002).]
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Thu Dec 12, 2002 2:04 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalar:
man i hate repeating myself. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I also dislike repeating myself. I've read those posts. What you've just admitted, however, is that it IS possible to go on and amass a better set under the current conditions. It just takes a LOT more time.

To me, this is fantastic; it's what the area imms have been shooting for. Something wherein they won't have inflation issues, but where people can technically continue to get better eq for years, without disturbing the balance.

I'm sorry that you see a lot of these threads as attacks and I hope you don't take any of it personally.

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Shevarash responds to your petition with 'You are the wind beneath my wings.'
Vahok
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Postby Vahok » Thu Dec 12, 2002 2:24 am

I'm still failing to see some people's point...

Why do people care if another player has similar eq to them? Did we not have fun getting it...?

Why do people think these is NO room for improvement on some eq? (amy, ET earrings, etc.) Make a 50hp ring with +1hit on it, or Prot Acid...

Why do people when they have a Ferrari, turn and look at their neighbour and say "Geez, look at their BMW..." Have we lost sight of the fact that we have the Ferrari....?

Why do people care if "n00bs" go to Jot or Brass? Call me arrogant, but I'm sure people see my skills (or lack of them!) and will invite me over Mr. "I got lvl 50 powerleveled and overpowered eq" to zone with them. If not, hold me a seat at 3w rangers... Image

Whatever, who farted?


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Meatshield
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Postby thanuk » Thu Dec 12, 2002 2:32 am

Vahok, there are currently eq caps in place that prevent rings like 50 hps 1 hit from goin in the game because they are too powerful. Also i dont care who does brass or how often Image I just think that harder zones should have the better eq in them, and easier zones have eq thats not as good. If a 60 hps ring is the best ring there is gonna be, dont you think it should be harder to get than just by doing brass? I think that maybe brass should have a 40 hps ring so that a 60 hps ring can be put some place harder to get, because it is more valuable and stronger.

Im not trying to ruin the game for anyone, i dont want to make you quit. I just think that if some zones are harder they should have better rewards. And since there is a cap at how high eq can get, the best eq should come from the harder zones not the easier ones. If you disagree fine, but make a point about why eq should stay the way it is, dont tell me to go learn to write zones or help more newbies.


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Thanuk Pantherclaw
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his way..it's obviously the right way.'
golnol
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Postby golnol » Thu Dec 12, 2002 2:37 am

Why not just make zones a little harder. Or mobs a little bigger. Then that stuff would be harder to get. Also maybe zones wont get finished as quikly right after boot
Dalar
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Postby Dalar » Thu Dec 12, 2002 2:38 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Vahok:
<B>I'm still failing to see some people's point...

Why do people care if another player has similar eq to them? Did we not have fun getting it...?

Why do people think these is NO room for improvement on some eq? (amy, ET earrings, etc.) Make a 50hp ring with +1hit on it, or Prot Acid...

Why do people when they have a Ferrari, turn and look at their neighbour and say "Geez, look at their BMW..." Have we lost sight of the fact that we have the Ferrari....?

Why do people care if "n00bs" go to Jot or Brass? Call me arrogant, but I'm sure people see my skills (or lack of them!) and will invite me over Mr. "I got lvl 50 powerleveled and overpowered eq" to zone with them. If not, hold me a seat at 3w rangers... Image

Whatever, who farted?


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

would you be pissed if you bought a an authentic gold plated rolex for 2000 bux and i bought one for 200 bux? you paid 1800 more than me but we got the exact same thing. or how would u like it if you paid 200k for a car that can go 1-61 in 3 seconds but my 20k car can go from 1-60 in 3 seconds?

also, have you been playing htis game long? i've repeatedly ranted about ET earrings. there is a 12 hp -2 sv petri pfg earring from a random load in ET. there is also a quest that takes 3 zones to do, involves 6 rares, and intimate knowledge about some zones, one of which is an evil only zone. ET is mindless and easy. the quest i'm talking about takes hours and hours of time and work. it resulted in a 16 hp -3 sv petri sense life earring. BIG WOOP

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Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Thu Dec 12, 2002 2:38 am

I'd love to see an extremely challenging zone that doesn't take more than 2 hours.

I don't have much time to play anymore, and lost a lot of interest just because the thing I like to do, hard zones, all take 5+ hours. Image

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Dalar
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Postby Dalar » Thu Dec 12, 2002 2:44 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by golnol:
Why not just make zones a little harder. Or mobs a little bigger. Then that stuff would be harder to get. Also maybe zones wont get finished as quikly right after boot</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

b/c that doesn't solve the problem. the problem is that the eq is way too powerful for it's difficulty. changing the difficulty only makes it harder on the newbies. think about stepping stones. if you raise a step too high the newbies can't reach there. the best way is to just downgrade the eq to match the current difficulty. making the zones hella hard for that eq will just throw off newbies.

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Dalar
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Postby Dalar » Thu Dec 12, 2002 2:45 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Malacar:
<B>I'd love to see an extremely challenging zone that doesn't take more than 2 hours.

I don't have much time to play anymore, and lost a lot of interest just because the thing I like to do, hard zones, all take 5+ hours. Image

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

it's called "The Attic"


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Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Thu Dec 12, 2002 2:48 am

Don't get snipey at me Dartan! I'll... I'll... Cry!

Er...

Let's do attic sometime then. Image

And by challenging, I don't mean uber deaths and annoyances.. Never done attic, so dunno how it goes!

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Malacar - omg ymir!
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Jhorr
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Postby Jhorr » Thu Dec 12, 2002 3:08 am

Your argument is based on the assumption that there is now a permanent cap on stats. Well, I remember multiple times when that was announced and subsequently violated. At one time there was a ban on any eq having > 3 mods for hit/dam which is why so many items are 1/2 or 2/1. At the same time, it was accepted that if an item was to have either 3 in hit or dam then it would have to have -1 in the other. However, now we have multiple items that are 2/2, or 3dam or 3hit without a negative mod. Previous eq "stat caps" were raised and, as we all know, history repeats itself. Why should we believe it won't again? The admins of this mud are wise and experienced enough to do what's best for balance and if it means raising the max stats then I'm sure they'll do it.
Yayaril
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Postby Yayaril » Thu Dec 12, 2002 3:15 am

The gods ask players for their imput for a reason. So let's all just say we want higher stats on the harder zones to make it consistent with the work we do. I think the gear that comes from bronze citadel needs an upgrade.

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-Yayaril
Zetey
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Postby Zetey » Thu Dec 12, 2002 3:29 am

The bottom line is that you all are _too_ good at the game and you've maxed out your eq, making yourself godlike. Plus, your exp gleaned over the years allows you to own the "easy" zones.

A jot run will goes fast now, but how long did the first jot run take this wipe when eq wasn't maxed? How long did it take before you even got to jot?

If you make the game harder, you _will_ lose n00b players because they will get frustrated and quit. We'll lose too many possible high-end players, and a shrinking pbase ultimately means the death of the game.

I can understand the frustration that the high-end peeps feel when you see these slight differences in eq stats, but then again, every minor improvement adds to the whole, not to mention that very few people will ever get to the zone with the slightly better piece of eq.

The only thing that really solves eq inflation is a pwipe. But even if you start over from scratch, in two years you'll have the same complaints you have now -- make the game harder because the many look too much like the few.

Downgrades don't really hurt the high-end player, they hurt the newer player.
Dalar
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Postby Dalar » Thu Dec 12, 2002 3:44 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Malacar:
<B>Don't get snipey at me Dartan! I'll... I'll... Cry!

Er...

Let's do attic sometime then. Image

And by challenging, I don't mean uber deaths and annoyances.. Never done attic, so dunno how it goes!

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
basically you're on a 20 min pop timer and there's a dragon + 3 casters + lord u gotta kill. the surrounding area has giants that proc nightmare. i'd say around 6 of them in a 9 room grid. the lord squad is in the upper left corner.


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Shevarash OOC: 'I never thought I'd long for Muma to be on OOC'
Dalar
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Postby Dalar » Thu Dec 12, 2002 3:55 am

Jhorr: I wouldn't be too sure about that statement. It's been a couple of weeks and no eq from bronze citadel has been upgraded (that i'm aware of that is).

Yayaril: Couple of weeks gone by = nothing :/

Zetey: High end players wear similar eq to the middle end. I wear silver band type bracers, eldritchs, falcons, an eyepatch easier to get than purple, earrings that were once easy to get (removed from game), sf neckguards, ogrehide gloves, sapphire belt (old school though :/). the only things i wear that are "uncommon" are my swirling orbs, sphere of nature, tia staff, oakvale shield, dragonkind. I'm as hardcore as they get and I still wear middle-end eq, so changes will obviously hurt me too.

I was once a newbie too. I figured out how to play the game etc. and yes i have improved my char. If you are a newbie and get frustrated b/c your eq got downgraded than we just got rid of moritheil's least favorite type of player, the player who only plays for eq! As for when eq wasn't maxed, DSR did vault 10 man in around 45 min to an hour, tf in 2 with all melee damage, brass in 2 hours. jot was around 2-3 hours with just palace b/c we used melee damage only. it was all about keeping the melee alive back then for some reason Image

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thanuk
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Postby thanuk » Thu Dec 12, 2002 4:58 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jhorr:
Your argument is based on the assumption that there is now a permanent cap on stats. Well, I remember multiple times when that was announced and subsequently violated. At one time there was a ban on any eq having > 3 mods for hit/dam which is why so many items are 1/2 or 2/1. At the same time, it was accepted that if an item was to have either 3 in hit or dam then it would have to have -1 in the other. However, now we have multiple items that are 2/2, or 3dam or 3hit without a negative mod. Previous eq "stat caps" were raised and, as we all know, history repeats itself. Why should we believe it won't again? The admins of this mud are wise and experienced enough to do what's best for balance and if it means raising the max stats then I'm sure they'll do it.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At the same time, eq has been downgraded in the past, and i would say on a more consistent basis than the eq stat caps have been raised. Downgrading or raising the cap are the only options really, i dont see how it can stay the way it is. Im personally in favor of downgrading eq because i dont think invidual characters should be allowed to get much more powerful than they are currently. I also think you can reach the maximum power level for your character too easily, based on where the best eq comes from. I could see raising the cap as well, but then you would need to upgrade existing eq to be better than the items from the easier zones. Downgrading the high end eq that is easy to get is a more viable option.
Again, i do not think these items should be made unusably bad. A 40 hps amethyst ring isnt that bad, and these are items everyone has, so everyone is effected the same. I do think they are too high for their difficulty, and that is the only point im trying to make.
Zetey - I disagree that everone will not have a chance to go to the harder zones. Brass, TF, and jot used to BE the harder zones. The reason they are the standard zones now is because everyone wanted to go there to get the eq from jot. Everyone knows how to do the fights, the melee damage that the zone is all about isn't as strong as it once was due to new spells and skills, it is just easier now because players are much more powerful than they were when the zone came into the game. If the best eq is in MD and clouds and scorps, people will start to do MD and clouds and scorps all the time. Its just the way the game goes, regardless of whether you play for fun or for eq or anything else. You pick the zones you do because you need/want equipment from there, or one of your friends does etc etc. But why bother going there, if its much harder, and the equipment isn't as good? Why not just go to jot instead, you get better stuff and theres less risk involved. That's the problem.

Todrael - yeah, you win Image

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Thanuk Pantherclaw
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Dec 12, 2002 5:14 am

Zetey ... at the beginning of the wipe a whole lot of people cried when Jot got an upgrade and was made more difficult. They cried a LOT.
Vahok
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Postby Vahok » Thu Dec 12, 2002 5:42 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B>Vahok, there are currently eq caps in place that prevent rings like 50 hps 1 hit from goin in the game because they are too powerful. Also i dont care who does brass or how often Image I just think that harder zones should have the better eq in them, and easier zones have eq thats not as good. If a 60 hps ring is the best ring there is gonna be, dont you think it should be harder to get than just by doing brass? I think that maybe brass should have a 40 hps ring so that a 60 hps ring can be put some place harder to get, because it is more valuable and stronger.

Im not trying to ruin the game for anyone, i dont want to make you quit. I just think that if some zones are harder they should have better rewards. And since there is a cap at how high eq can get, the best eq should come from the harder zones not the easier ones. If you disagree fine, but make a point about why eq should stay the way it is, dont tell me to go learn to write zones or help more newbies.


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


My point why eq should stay the same...because it doesn't hurt anyone to do so. True, it doesn't help any long time players...but it doesn't hurt them. My suggestion is have a variety of options. New zones with 60hp rings with different asni or decriptions...(face it, I don't wear those ugly ass amy rings either)
Allow people to customize their characters more...

Personally, I don't care either way. My eq is not the best, nor do I have time/knowledge to do so. But I respect anyone as player who does have the best eq available. Hell, some people I am a little jealous of their eq. But whoever they are, they deserve it. I'm not a big quester, so I personally think anyone who does them should get better eq. (Maybe upgrade quests in older zones?) I'm still learning here, so yeah I can see why older players are upset about everyone getting things easy. Kinda like the new guy getting hired at a job you have been at for years, and starting at only $1.00 less per hour.

Downgrade, upgrade, move eq between zones, no change at all...honestly, it truely does not matter to me. Yeah, I'm newer to mudding here (I have been playing them for a bit longer), so maybe my opinion is a little biased to downgrading. I feel it will hurt newer players more, however I could be wrong. (And sorry folks, I don't plan on going anywhere anytime soon Image )

I am basically posting here to get more opinions/ideas. I think this type of discussion is great for the mud in general. Hopefully, I was raising different viewpoints, as you all were. Call my rambling thinking out loud.....

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Meatshield
Vahok
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Postby Vahok » Thu Dec 12, 2002 6:11 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalar:
<B> would you be pissed if you bought a an authentic gold plated rolex for 2000 bux and i bought one for 200 bux? you paid 1800 more than me but we got the exact same thing. or how would u like it if you paid 200k for a car that can go 1-61 in 3 seconds but my 20k car can go from 1-60 in 3 seconds?

also, have you been playing htis game long? i've repeatedly ranted about ET earrings. there is a 12 hp -2 sv petri pfg earring from a random load in ET. there is also a quest that takes 3 zones to do, involves 6 rares, and intimate knowledge about some zones, one of which is an evil only zone. ET is mindless and easy. the quest i'm talking about takes hours and hours of time and work. it resulted in a 16 hp -3 sv petri sense life earring. BIG WOOP

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hey, I also agree with you as well. It's not fair that your efforts are not properly valued. I'm just, as I say in my other posts, trying to raise ideas. I honestly wish there was a solution to make everyone happy in relating to eq. Other ideas I wish to see with eq is making some more lengthy solo-type quests, with a nice return at the end. So people who have time, but don't like zoning have something to do.

Again a personal note, I wish I had eq of many others here. I don't think anyone should write be forced to do anything (ie. questing, zoning, zone writing, role playing) because I don't do all these things either. Now that you have written back, I can understand why people are wanting downgrades, higher quest rewards, etc. Hey, it's human nature to look out for our personal sitution. I think anyone who has the playing ability to do the hardest things on the mud should be rewarded. And hey, I also get bitter when I see people win bids I wanted. I also get upset with myself because of my lack of quest knowledge. I wish I had the time/knowledge to do questing/harder zones. But, of course, the fact I don't have these things is ultimately my fault. Maybe I'm just wierd, I wish we all could be happy as possible here. Isn't that the point of a game? Of course, like life, it's hard to please everyone.

So keep this, and any thread going about gameplay! I think it's great we care enough to write our thoughts on these things. I'm not the smartest guy, or the best player, nor have attained my personal mud goals; but I hope my thoughts help sort this one out.

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Meatshield
rachaz
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Postby rachaz » Thu Dec 12, 2002 6:56 am

I would like to say two things on this subject. The first thing is that I play sojourn because I enjoy the fact that it remains the same. I can depend on this game every day. I know this sounds sappy but it is true. When I log in after a hard day, I like to see things are the same with me as when I logged off. When equipment is downgraded or removed from this game, it destroys some of the consistency that I enjoy so much. Downgrading eq is not my first choice for solving this "ceiling" problem. However, I am aware that the problem exists.

One possible solution to the problem that I would like to see would be what Malacar mentioned earlier. I do not have as much time as I used to and would still like to play. I work and take some classes every year. I do not mind the special occasion of skipping work the next day for tiamat but I do not have the opportunity to do that regularly. I also do not have the same desire to sit in front of the computer for 8+ hours at a time like I used to. More difficult but shorter zones would be a wonderful touch to this game.

I was going to write more but do not really feel like being flamed. Thanks for reading my stream of consciousness.

Rach
Dugmaren
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Postby Dugmaren » Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:08 am

Yes I am reading this, (I should be studying, stop wasting my time with repeating yourselves or quoting everyone else Image.

My thoughts from what has been said so far;

1. Some items in lower level zones are excessive, some may need downgrading.
2. Some items in higher level zones are wimpy, some may need upgrading.

3. The power of equipment should be based on the difficulty of the zone, or the amount of good gear you have to give up for it in a quest.
4. The amount of equipment should be based on the duration of the zone.

5. Although a logarithmic curve in the high end of risk vs. reward does seem needed, perhaps we can make it slightly more linear.

Dugmaren
Dalar
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Postby Dalar » Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:23 am

<img src= "http://home.earthlink.net/~dartanpics82/GiveMeAHug.jpg">

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Corth
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Postby Corth » Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:24 am

Dug:

That seems like a fair compromise. If you guys do end up reviewing item stats, I wish you the best of luck. It seems like an awfully large project. I think, however, that if you are faithful to the criteria you have listed then it will be a succesful endeavor.

Corth

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Postby Dalar » Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:25 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dugmaren:
<B>
3. The power of equipment should be based on the difficulty of the zone, or the amount of good gear you have to give up for it in a quest.
Dugmaren</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

could the amount of rare (some rare eq just sux) or the amount of time you have to use to do a zone that's never done (something like say evermoors) be also taken into account? quests that is

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Postby Daz » Thu Dec 12, 2002 9:02 am

if you are going to downgrade some key items, i quite imagine that regardless of almost 140 days of ptime, most of my eq is 'cookie cutter.'

i wear nightshades, jot ringmail, darkstones, elly rings, shroud, orbs - staple mage items. this downgrade of eq is gonna burn me quite hard i imagine.

but, you can't change the inevitable. if we do this across the board downgrade, how about looking into some upgrades for easier to get items.

can we make a DSR server for these guys? i mean, nothing personal - but the equipment that you guys wanna nerf is the equipment that i can get on my own. i realize i suck, i realize i am a noob, thank you for enlightening me. the thing is, i am here to play a game, have fun, explore new things, and give cool things to new players so that the world i enjoy can grow, too.

as far as amethyst rings go - i've won that bid once, in about 50-60 brass runs. at the time, i was even more noob than i am now, and i traded it to twyl for a rippling flames longsword and jot mithril belt. if you wanna downgrade this ring, i really hope you put in a 35 or 40hp ring that a small group of 3-5 level 40+ players can get without being gods.

i don't care that you guys are awesome, i will be the first to concede, but can you find another way to become more awesome by making me even more pathetic than i am now?

Lynia says 'u suck'

I agree. how does making me suck even more change the slightest aspect of the game for anyone or anything but your own ability to compare your stats to mine.

nerfing eq doesn't make the game harder or more challenging. nerfing eq makes you able to say 'ha, now instead of being X times better than you, i am now X+2 times better.'

jot didn't become a challenge. brass isn't exciting. not a single one of your 8 alts will log on and expect anything new and challenging.

what WILL happen is that i will log on, i will have even less hitpoints or armor class than i do now, the little things *I* can fight become harder and more likely to kill me. the game becomes more difficult for ME, not you.

Clouds, Bronze Citadel, Tiamat . . . zones that I play every single day hoping to get good enough to be a part of, become even more distant and unattainable to me. Instead of being able to do things like this, I will be delegated back to doing the same old zones I have been doing for so long now.

I don't play this mud for the EQ, I never have. I play for the fun, friends, and challenge. This powergamer fix will hurt me, alot.

This solution is remniscent of taking go-bots from a poor kid, smashing them, and telling him that if he wants to play, he needs the expensive dinobot toys.
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Postby Sarkhon » Thu Dec 12, 2002 9:14 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Vahok:
<B>
Hey, I also agree with you as well. It's not fair that your efforts are not properly valued ... Other ideas I wish to see with eq is making some more lengthy solo-type quests, with a nice return at the end. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh ... I respect where you are coming from Vahok, but have to agree wholeheartedly with Dartan's sentiments regarding high-end gear. There is a certain mentality that pervades amongst many hardcore gamers, myself included, that aspire to be "the best" in whatever they do. Now putting aside raw skills, the current equipment setup leaves little room to be "the best" when at most you are looking at a few hp/damroll with the highest of the high end gear.

My monk was pretty much maxxed out as much as he could on Toril but there were always those elusive items you aspired to get... fumes, a 3rd or 4th tia item, perhaps an artifact, etc. As the game stands now, those options dont exist, and people are looking to in-game items to give themselves that "Edge" over the next lvl 50 warrior ... but where is it? A couple svsp? 10 more hp? Or is it time to consider allowing AC to go over -100?

I played Everquest for nearly 4 years before returning here ... at the highest of the high end game, and though equipment stats got a bit ludicrous there, it still always 1) gave you something to strive for and 2) was an essential component to advance further. Both of those elements are really missing right now, and could really be fixed well by some of the proposed changes.

You bring up a good point on "solo" quests being an option in alleviating some of these issues but unfortunately the trend for quality quest rewards simply isnt in place. My questing skills are very rusty these days, and I admittedly dont know the current high-end quests inside out, but i do know enough to say that there's no reason "the best" equipment shouldnt come out of a properly tuned epic-style quest (erlan... oakvale... etc). Questing isnt for everyone but those that endure the rigors of giving up top-end gear and checking endless rares should be proud to wear whatever their efforts might yield.

I'm not sure how feasible this would be, or what other people would think of it, but i'd suggest that if downgrades were indeed in the works then to scatter "the best" equipment across BC, Hulburg, Attic, etc. and then simultaneously bring in a few zones off testmud to further distribute the load.

Again, im not sure on the status of the zones in testmud, but if their equipment could be tuned in conjunction with whatever might be downgraded, and implemented at the same time, it would really put a nice spin on re-kitting within new zones, especially if you need to kit-up in a good mid/high-end zone like Clouds or Avernus to do it.

Progression prolongs EQ advancement and inherently keeps people interested in gearing up their guild/friends to tackle that next challenge ... just something to consider.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Dec 12, 2002 9:15 am

The only reason i said you suck is b/c you consistantly weren't blurring me or stoning me. both would have been good. and losing 100 ac and -20 ac won't hurt you at all. i usually only have 650ish hp in a zone as dartan and i do very well. with better tactics and stronger understanding of the game this eq change isn't noticeable. heck imphras zoned naked. how bad could the downgrade be to your playing?

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oteb
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Postby oteb » Thu Dec 12, 2002 12:26 pm

offtopic: Dalar I cant understand your constant whines about the earring you got. It seems it has 33%more hp AND sense life than rare earring you can get from zone. IMO its well balanced.

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[This message has been edited by oteb (edited 12-12-2002).]
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Postby rylan » Thu Dec 12, 2002 1:20 pm

off topic also, I'll agree with Oteb on that earring. -3sv_pet is pretty damned uber on an item also, especially when you can wear two of them.

Back on topic, I think this thread is kinda out of control. I think a few items could use a -minor- adjustment, but not as far sweeping as some think. I don't think amount of equip should be based on zone duration really. You can have lots of items in a zone as long as long as they aren't out of wack. I'll use jot for example, since I think its fairly well balanced.. lots of decent items, a few pretty good ones, but there is better stuff from other harder zones.

[This message has been edited by rylan (edited 12-12-2002).]
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Postby Snurgt » Thu Dec 12, 2002 1:32 pm

I'm just gonna trust the staff on this one to not ruin aspects of the mud for the majority in order to satisfy a minority who are no longer 'fulfilled'.

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Postby Tanji Smanji » Thu Dec 12, 2002 1:50 pm

As I've already said, most of the gear mentioned doesn't need a huge downgrade. Eldritch rings, one of the big items mentioned could well be left alone. Just add a +75 hps ring without the -str and that'll become the new preferred ring easy. Falcons, drop 5 hps and leave the rest. If yer so upset about losin 5 hps that you'd quit...bye. Amethyst, there's already a +50 hps ring in thats way easier than brass if you have any brains whatsoever. Or just leave amethyst and put another +60 hps ring elsewhere with better ansi. Amethysts will become trash. We're talkin about making the rewards of doing upper lvl zones more worth it to the ppl who want to do them.

I'm glad Sarkhon mentioned EQ, they did a good job of constantly pushing that bar for high end zones, there was always something better (unless you were a ranger, bastards).

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Postby moritheil » Thu Dec 12, 2002 2:24 pm

This thread is asking to in effect downgrade 90% of the mud in order to benefit the top 10% of the players. If you were to ask for better eq, I think we would all understand, and leave that to the imms to decide, but you ask for the downgrading of eq that is available to most people, and not that which is available to yourself.

Does that seem fair and reasonable?

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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Dec 12, 2002 2:39 pm

The downgrades don't seem unreasonable due to the fact that there are some huge gaps in some slots. Amey could take a little knock back, and then there would be a logical next step up, which might be enough to get a certain zone some actual playtime. Footwear is another slot where there's a huge gap... although a certain other zone I know of filled that slot somewhat (did that just become rare beyond rare?).

If the staff decides to do this, I'd trust that they can pull it off within reason. People like Dartan will never be happy, no matter what, but somehow I doubt anybody would really get totally screwed over.
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Postby thanuk » Thu Dec 12, 2002 2:41 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>i wear nightshades, jot ringmail, darkstones, elly rings, shroud, orbs - staple mage items. this downgrade of eq is gonna burn me quite hard i imagine.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If darkstones lost 5 hps, elly rings lost 10, shroud lost a prot or both, orbs lost 15 hps each, you lost 60 hps and 2 prots from these sweeping, game killing downgrades. Again, you need to all quit assuming that we who are pulling for downgrades want this eq to turn to absolute junk. We don't. But you know what? All that eq you just listed are "staple mage items" because they are the best friggin items in their slots! And where do they come from? Jot, Jot, Crypts, brass, vault, ET. You yourself said you aspire to go to all the harder zones one day, but why the hell should you? Theres nothing for you to gain by going there, all the best eq is already in your hands. How are you gonna feel when you get better, when your chanter is a scaler and you hit up clouds. Then you have a great time fighting for 4 hours cuz clouds is alot of fun, and then you get all the kewl loot u never seen before, and now your gonna be soo leet cuz your doing the harder zones now, right? Wrong! You get a crappy good cleric only hood, some sleeves that are about as good as deep blues, and you better hope something good loads in the evil altar, but odds are your gonna get a ruby studded black dragonscale, 10 hps 2 hitroll. Theres a better earring in friggin meilech! You all think this will only hurt you, and its to the benefit of the better players, but its not the case. Its to your benefit a little bit down the road, after you have conquered your current challenges and inevitably move on to harder zones. Hey man i started in jot brass tf and crypts just like the rest of you did, then i moved up to scorps, then clouds, avernus, muspelhiem and the like. Its a progression. You cant honestly tell me you will never go to the harder zones, and if you don't it isnt my fault that you do not. They are there every boot, and you obviously have a group capable of doing jot, so your group is also capable of doing clouds. But you have a big suprise in store for you when you get there; your working harder for stuff thats not even as good as what you are wearing! The same nightshade you got in jot someone else got in bronze citadel. The earring you got from ET is only 3 hps less than the one dartan got for 3 months of questing. 33% is a nice number to throw out, but the reality is its only 3 hps. Im sure the person who designed the quest wanted the item to have a bigger impact than that, however, the caps on eq restrict an earring from getting more powerful than that.
If you are happy doing the same old easy zones all the time and never trying something harder, thats fine, thats the way you choose to play. But " I don't wanna have to work harder to be better" is not a valid reason for keeping the best eq in the easiest zones. You can be completely zoneworthy will all the eq from the easy zones, even after they got the proposed downgrade, even though i seriously doubt anything will be downgraded because you all dont want to lose your precious 20 hps. Who cares if it pays off later, i want things to be easier right now! It will eventually come back and bite you in the ass.


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Postby Xisiqomelir » Thu Dec 12, 2002 2:49 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tanji Smanji:
Or just leave amethyst and put another +60 hps ring elsewhere with better ansi. Amethysts will become trash.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

THERE IS NO ANSI BETTER THAN PINK (except alternating pink/red, gogo gadget Brain Medallion/Distort Earring Image ) You're lucky it was I who saw this and not Zoldy.

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Postby thanuk » Thu Dec 12, 2002 2:55 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B>This thread is asking to in effect downgrade 90% of the mud in order to benefit the top 10% of the players. If you were to ask for better eq, I think we would all understand, and leave that to the imms to decide, but you ask for the downgrading of eq that is available to most people, and not that which is available to yourself.

Does that seem fair and reasonable?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This thread is in effect asking to downgrade 100% of the mud to benefit 100% of the mud. Also i have asked for the downgrades of 5/20 peices of eq that i wear, so whats that, 25% of my gear? Why are you trying to turn this into an us vs. them? The reason i havent asked for downgrading of any of the eq in teh harder zones, at the end of the long quests, is because it doesnt need downgrading. All the easy eq is already better than that stuff, why would you downgrade the inferior items that are harder to get and leave the easier superior items alone?
Everyone wears this eq, and i do mean everyone. You and all your friends wear it, the n00bs you take to FP who dont know to tog their wimpys off wear it. All the people in my guild wear it. Should a level 41 cleric who has never been off the ship have the same eq as someone with 150 pdays and has done every zone in the game? Is THAT fair? i am calling for the downgrade of 1/4th of my own eq. How much of your eq is actually on this list? If anything, ill be suffering more than most. Theres not 1 item in this game that you think is too easy to get considering the power it yields? You can't honestly expect me to believe that. Dont try and turn this into haves and have nots, that is not my intention. Im not trying to make my character better than yours by downgrading all your eq while mine stays the same. My eq would be downgraded as well, 1/4th of it. Its not because i want to be better than you, its not trying to help me by hurting you. The idea is to give better rewards for harder accomplishments. This would be a benefit to anyone who hopes to go to a harder zone one day, to move from the easy to the medium zones.

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Postby Aedarton » Thu Dec 12, 2002 2:59 pm

I think that peeps are getting hung up on the word 'downgrade'. Why not leave eq stats the same they are and UPGRADE quest items and uber zones ?

-Aed
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Postby thanuk » Thu Dec 12, 2002 3:17 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Aedarton:
<B>I think that peeps are getting hung up on the word 'downgrade'. Why not leave eq stats the same they are and UPGRADE quest items and uber zones ?

-Aed</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because like we keep saying, there is a permanent cap on eq stats, basically a point at which a single piece of equipment can not be any stronger, because it would be unbalancing. The problem is that EQ from the easier zones in the game is already up to that cap, so that harder zones that have come in later down the line can not offer better rewards than the previously existing ones. The purpose of downgrading would be to create room at the higher range of the cap for better eq to come into the game, without having the new eq exceed the current limits on item power that are in place.



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Postby Savras » Thu Dec 12, 2002 3:41 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jhorr:
Your argument is based on the assumption that there is now a permanent cap on stats. Well, I remember multiple times when that was announced and subsequently violated. At one time there was a ban on any eq having > 3 mods for hit/dam which is why so many items are 1/2 or 2/1. At the same time, it was accepted that if an item was to have either 3 in hit or dam then it would have to have -1 in the other. However, now we have multiple items that are 2/2, or 3dam or 3hit without a negative mod. Previous eq "stat caps" were raised and, as we all know, history repeats itself. Why should we believe it won't again? The admins of this mud are wise and experienced enough to do what's best for balance and if it means raising the max stats then I'm sure they'll do it.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One problem which might not be considered in this thread. The reason for eq caps is that without them, PCs start to seriously overpower mobs. Mobs are limited to lvl 59, so really the way to make zones 'harder' is just to keep putting in more and more mobs, until you get to the Tia type fight where its basically just attrition.

Please also remember the number of posts and gripes about Tia back when she was still in the game? About how the fight was just mindless running, killing and dying?

I mean... this game is 'loosely' based on AD&D right? At least the monster manual general info. Dragons are ultra rare and extremely territorial, so how long before the 4, 6, 8 dragon-in-the-same-room fights become ridiculous/outlandish?

Anyway, point is: Mobs have a cap too, therefore zones can't really just keep getting harder and harder without it reverting to an attrition fight. (they can try though)

Oh, and I'm pro-downgrade, but no one listens to me anyway :P
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Postby Savras » Thu Dec 12, 2002 3:44 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Vahok:
<B>
My point why eq should stay the same...because it doesn't hurt anyone to do so. True, it doesn't help any long time players...but it doesn't hurt them. My suggestion is have a variety of options. New zones with 60hp rings with different asni or decriptions...(face it, I don't wear those ugly ass amy rings either)
Allow people to customize their characters more...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This has been suggested before, and its a good suggestion except for this:

With just the Amey in the game, you have one 60 hp ring going into the game each boot.

With one amey and 3 other similar stat, different ansi rings in the game, you have 4 60 hp rings going into the game each boot.

It can be argued that its worse to have 4 rings entering the game per boot than 1 easy one.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Thu Dec 12, 2002 4:19 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>if you are going to downgrade some key items, i quite imagine that regardless of almost 140 days of ptime, most of my eq is 'cookie cutter.'

i wear nightshades, jot ringmail, darkstones, elly rings, shroud, orbs - staple mage items. this downgrade of eq is gonna burn me quite hard i imagine.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Just a little heads up on what I currently wear.

<worn as a badge> the Badge of the Knights of Volheru (illuminating)
<worn on head> a mystical cranial defender
<worn on eyes> a purple silk eyepatch (magic)
<worn in ear> a crystal raindrop (magic)
<worn in ear> a diamondine earring (magic)
<worn on face> a soft leather mask encrusted with garnets (magic)
<worn around neck> a golden amulet inset with a human eye (magic)
<worn around neck> a glowing brain medallion (magic)
<worn on body> a long burnished ringmail tunic (magic)
<worn about body> the wings of the griffon (magic)
<worn as quiver> an eelskin quiver
<worn about waist> a thin girdle with a turquoise clasp (magic)
<worn on arms> a deep-blue set of sleeves (magic)
<worn around wrist> a bracelet made from leaves of nightshade
<worn around wrist> a bracelet made from leaves of nightshade
<worn on hands> dark scaled talons
<worn on finger> a ring of elemental control
<worn on finger> a ring of elemental control
<primary weapon> a flaming staff of the magi (magic) (glowing)
<held> an elemental orb of might (magic)
<worn on legs> a set of basilisk scale leggings (magic)
<worn on feet> a pair of hatori-skin boots

The point you don't seem to get is, this is an across the board proposal for chage. I will be nerfed JUST as hard as you would be Daz. Hell, I don't even have loki ringmail and I have nearly 40 days on Arilin, do you see me complaining? No, Because even I feel it's a needed change.

I still have some very 'noob' equipment compared to most of my guild mates, and things will affect me the same as it does everyone else. will say 75hp loss kill me? No, that's why we get vits in zones.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>
can we make a DSR server for these guys? i mean, nothing personal - but the equipment that you guys wanna nerf is the equipment that i can get on my own. i realize i suck, i realize i am a noob, thank you for enlightening me. the thing is, i am here to play a game, have fun, explore new things, and give cool things to new players so that the world i enjoy can grow, too.

i don't care that you guys are awesome, i will be the first to concede, but can you find another way to become more awesome by making me even more pathetic than i am now?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


A seperate DSR server because we're 'leet'? Dude, get f'ing real. They aren't suggesting this because they want to open the gap more between themselves and us, no. They suggest because doing crypts and getting a 20hp darkstone is going to be more preferable than going to clouds and trying to quest a 22hp brain medallion. OMG, I got +3max_power, Yeah. WAY worth it to me.

The entire point to this thread is just that. Jhorr in another thread posted his thoughts on the difficulty level of crypts as "<1 hour mins" Then clouds got a "3-5 hours"

Tell me, for the average just hack and slash player who just wants to goof off and screw around(which is perfectly fine)he gets an invite to crypts, spends 1.5 hours, wins his darkstone, 20hp. I spend 3.5 hours in clouds, and luckily, the brain medallion loads that trip, I bid, and I lose, ok that happens alot. But 2hp? Two frigging hp in such different zones? I rarely post complaints, and this really isn't one either, but I just feel that's the essense of why this thread was started.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>
nerfing eq doesn't make the game harder or more challenging. nerfing eq makes you able to say 'ha, now instead of being X times better than you, i am now X+2 times better.'
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It doesn't? So, dropping the darkstone to 15hp doesn't make the game harder? It's not harder to go do clouds multipule times and win your bid on a 22hp neck item?

I must have some very faulty logic here, sorry. I thought doing harder zones+spending more time in them = harder gameplay. It must be that new math, eh?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>
what WILL happen is that i will log on, i will have even less hitpoints or armor class than i do now, the little things *I* can fight become harder and more likely to kill me. the game becomes more difficult for ME, not you.

Clouds, Bronze Citadel, Tiamat . . . zones that I play every single day hoping to get good enough to be a part of, become even more distant and unattainable to me. Instead of being able to do things like this, I will be delegated back to doing the same old zones I have been doing for so long now.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Man, i've zoned with a little over 400hp at level 40+ as Arilin, and even less before.
It's not that hard to do, and yeah it was still fun because we were doing things like Avernus. 175hp or however many you lose doesn't mean squat. You rely on your group in the zone, your clerics to keep you healed, and your enchanters to keep you stoned/scaled.

If you're tired of being 'delegated to doing the same old zones' Then decline invites. Go find something else to do, you are fully capable of saying no.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>
I don't play this mud for the EQ, I never have. I play for the fun, friends, and challenge. This powergamer fix will hurt me, alot.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, then let me ask you, since you don't play this mud for the equipment. Why are you posting complaining about how your equipment will become so much less substanial than say someone like dartan who spends MONTHS of his time questing and searching the mud for things. He works his ass off. You do brass every other day. I am no where CLOSE to the playing ability of most of my guild, but damn if I don't do my best and I make up for it. You'll live if equipment gets downgraded slightly. We all would.

-And Daz, this was not a flame towards you, i'm trying to make my points and argue your reasons. I personally don't know you well enough to dislike you, nor do I really care enough to flame. I hope you don't take it that way, but there's my thoughts. Talk amongst yourselves.


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-Arilin Nydelahar
...Knowledge is power, and knowledge of life and death brings power over all beings, living and unliving.

[This message has been edited by Arilin Nydelahar (edited 12-12-2002).]
thanuk
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Postby thanuk » Thu Dec 12, 2002 4:37 pm

Ok i have a question. I have seen both Jhorr and Daz say that lowering the stats on eq will not make the game any harder. Arilin pointed this out in his post, you both think the difficulty level would not change if eq was downgraded. So if it doesn't matter, then what is the problem if it gets downgraded?

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Thanuk Pantherclaw
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oteb
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Postby oteb » Thu Dec 12, 2002 4:42 pm

Increasing the number of mobs can't also be done infinitely. There is a point where no matter how many healers you got you can't keep up with more than 6 clouds or 6 thunderblasts leaving 80% of casters stunnded and no matter if you increase eq caps or no. Thus if you change eq cap you would have to change healing spells somewhat, probably duration of of dispalce and dragonscales would also need to be changed.
IMO we should stay with current eq caps or close it if dont want to revert the whole mud.
I am not either against downgrade or for it. The question is if we want highend zones to be done only by selected few. How often do powergamers need to invite somebody less devoted to game to zone to fill quota? if you downgrade high level ppl without higher end gear you might find yourselves lacking ppl to help you in top zones as their eq wont be sufficient to go there.
If downgrade than slight.
some items more to the list posted
loki armor (few items noticably better: either -5ss or +9int)
rhemo cloak (this can fight can be done by a really small group and i still see level 50 ppl wearing it)
darkstone amulets
both nebbie and et orb would require dg also jeweled prism




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You raise a level!
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Postby Dalar » Thu Dec 12, 2002 5:22 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by oteb:
<B>offtopic: Dalar I cant understand your constant whines about the earring you got. It seems it has 33%more hp AND sense life than rare earring you can get from zone. IMO its well balanced.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

rylan and oteb. please realize you have NO clue how difficult this quest is and you shouldn't pretend. if you got a 26 hp -2 sv spell sense life neckwear from doing a quest that took u 2 months and required like 4 zones, 6 rares, a bunch of misc items and the most obscure clues i'm sure you would agree. it's alot easier to look at a list of quest items handed to you then actually figure them out.

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moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Thu Dec 12, 2002 5:30 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B>Ok i have a question. I have seen both Jhorr and Daz say that lowering the stats on eq will not make the game any harder.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Daz specifically stated it won't get harder for the ELITE. It WILL get harder and more annoying for him. That is what I got out of reading his post. YMMV.

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Arilin Nydelahar
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Thu Dec 12, 2002 5:51 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B> Daz specifically stated it won't get harder for the ELITE. It WILL get harder and more annoying for him. That is what I got out of reading his post. YMMV.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why wouldn't it get hard for the 'elite'? They'd have their equipment downgraded as well, and would in turn have to do harder zones more to get the better things. Just because we can do something !spank doesn't mean we're elite, it means we bring along our close knit group of friends(read: guild) and we've had alot of experience doing things, so we would naturally tend to have an easier time with things. Look at our BC run. We died on the last fight what? 46 times give or take total?

Shrug. Just my pov, maybe i'm a noob.

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-Arilin Nydelahar
...Knowledge is power, and knowledge of life and death brings power over all beings, living and unliving.

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