<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalar:
<B> rylan and oteb. please realize you have NO clue how difficult this quest is and you shouldn't pretend. if you got a 26 hp -2 sv spell sense life neckwear from doing a quest that took u 2 months and required like 4 zones, 6 rares, a bunch of misc items and the most obscure clues i'm sure you would agree. it's alot easier to look at a list of quest items handed to you then actually figure them out.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I quested a staff that took me 2months 2 zones , over 10rares and a bunch of items from obscure places. its 5hp better than a set of nebbies doesnt have maxint but has -5ss. You know what? second time i did the quest it took me half of the time. I am damn happy with both of the items. If i spent 2 months dfoing 26hp neckwear with -2ss and sense life i would consider it one of most worthwhile quest i ever done.
You got a kickass suit of ancients. Do you really want to make it even better bc you are one of few ppl who know or can get it? to make zoning for you even easier?
I think Dalar that you would be unhappy even in Rols-Royce bc guy in Subaru Impreza which is x time cheaper just passed you
And i really think its not only stats that matter, there are items that are spanky b/c of status symbol. why so many high level clerics are wearing or try to get platinum bevor? does it have better stats than glittering golden mask? not really. but its symbol of higher status.
------------------
Moritheil is dead! R.I.P
Your receive back exp you lost in his groups!
You raise a level!
[This message has been edited by oteb (edited 12-12-2002).]
[This message has been edited by oteb (edited 12-12-2002).]
Downgrade This Stuff
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by oteb:
<B> I quested a staff that took me 2months 2 zones , over 10rares and a bunch of items from obscure places. its 5hp better than a set of nebbies doesnt have maxint but has -5ss. You know what? second time i did the quest it took me half of the time. I am damn happy with both of the items. If i spent 2 months dfoing 26hp neckwear with -2ss and sense life i would consider it one of most worthwhile quest i ever done.
And i really think its not only stats that matter, there are items that are spanky b/c of status symbol. why so many high level clerics are wearing or try to get platinum bevor? does it have better stats than glittering golden mask? not really. but its symbol of higher status.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
5 hps and -5 svspell is alot. 3 hps and -1 sv pet is a little. See the difference? Also compare the zones the quest originated from, and their difficulty. Compare the difficulty of each of the fights you had to do to get the items, regardless of rarity, to the difficulty of the fights in dartans quest.
As for suit of the ancients, it wouldnt really be getting any better, the stats would stay the same. There is also nothing stopping you from getting one of these for yourself.
As for a platinum bevor, and status symbols in general, if you trade for it, then you didnt really go and get it, so its not really a status symbol. You will also find alot less people wearing a platinum bevor once everyone else has one.
------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
Belleshel group-says 'hmm Im not sure why miax and company doesn't scrap the mud and let thanuk run it
his way.. it's obviously the right way.'
[This message has been edited by thanuk (edited 12-12-2002).]
<B> I quested a staff that took me 2months 2 zones , over 10rares and a bunch of items from obscure places. its 5hp better than a set of nebbies doesnt have maxint but has -5ss. You know what? second time i did the quest it took me half of the time. I am damn happy with both of the items. If i spent 2 months dfoing 26hp neckwear with -2ss and sense life i would consider it one of most worthwhile quest i ever done.
And i really think its not only stats that matter, there are items that are spanky b/c of status symbol. why so many high level clerics are wearing or try to get platinum bevor? does it have better stats than glittering golden mask? not really. but its symbol of higher status.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
5 hps and -5 svspell is alot. 3 hps and -1 sv pet is a little. See the difference? Also compare the zones the quest originated from, and their difficulty. Compare the difficulty of each of the fights you had to do to get the items, regardless of rarity, to the difficulty of the fights in dartans quest.
As for suit of the ancients, it wouldnt really be getting any better, the stats would stay the same. There is also nothing stopping you from getting one of these for yourself.
As for a platinum bevor, and status symbols in general, if you trade for it, then you didnt really go and get it, so its not really a status symbol. You will also find alot less people wearing a platinum bevor once everyone else has one.
------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
Belleshel group-says 'hmm Im not sure why miax and company doesn't scrap the mud and let thanuk run it
his way.. it's obviously the right way.'
[This message has been edited by thanuk (edited 12-12-2002).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Savras:
<B> This has been suggested before, and its a good suggestion except for this:
With just the Amey in the game, you have one 60 hp ring going into the game each boot.
With one amey and 3 other similar stat, different ansi rings in the game, you have 4 60 hp rings going into the game each boot.
It can be argued that its worse to have 4 rings entering the game per boot than 1 easy one.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oooh, good call...I never thought of that one. Hmm, lemme think about this at work (like I have anything better to do!)...
On a side note, I think this is great. Seeing all your different viewpoints helps me think this through. I'll come up with some more (probably dumb-ass) ideas...
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Meatshield
<B> This has been suggested before, and its a good suggestion except for this:
With just the Amey in the game, you have one 60 hp ring going into the game each boot.
With one amey and 3 other similar stat, different ansi rings in the game, you have 4 60 hp rings going into the game each boot.
It can be argued that its worse to have 4 rings entering the game per boot than 1 easy one.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oooh, good call...I never thought of that one. Hmm, lemme think about this at work (like I have anything better to do!)...
On a side note, I think this is great. Seeing all your different viewpoints helps me think this through. I'll come up with some more (probably dumb-ass) ideas...
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Meatshield
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B> 5 hps and -5 svspell is alot. 3 hps and -1 sv pet is a little. See the difference? Also compare the zones the quest originated from, and their difficulty. Compare the difficulty of each of the fights you had to do to get the items, regardless of rarity, to the difficulty of the fights in dartans quest.
As for suit of the ancients, it wouldnt really be getting any better, the stats would stay the same. There is also nothing stopping you from getting one of these for yourself.
As for a platinum bevor, and status symbols in general, if you trade for it, then you didnt really go and get it, so its not really a status symbol. You will also find alot less people wearing a platinum bevor once everyone else has one.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
you seem to forget about sense life. you get sense life from earring ditch headband of 1k eyes get diamond tiara and you are +8hps and some -ss. and that is without losing maxint notch and !summon like i did. worthwhile? i think so.
Whats stoping me from getting suit of ancients? i have no idea where is it from.
Yes yet there is some reason why i see clerics with bevor which is has worse stats than ggmask. there will always be items that are statsu symbols. knew zones are coming in new things discovered.
------------------
Moritheil is dead! R.I.P
Your receive back exp you lost in his groups!
You raise a level!
[This message has been edited by oteb (edited 12-12-2002).]
<B> 5 hps and -5 svspell is alot. 3 hps and -1 sv pet is a little. See the difference? Also compare the zones the quest originated from, and their difficulty. Compare the difficulty of each of the fights you had to do to get the items, regardless of rarity, to the difficulty of the fights in dartans quest.
As for suit of the ancients, it wouldnt really be getting any better, the stats would stay the same. There is also nothing stopping you from getting one of these for yourself.
As for a platinum bevor, and status symbols in general, if you trade for it, then you didnt really go and get it, so its not really a status symbol. You will also find alot less people wearing a platinum bevor once everyone else has one.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
you seem to forget about sense life. you get sense life from earring ditch headband of 1k eyes get diamond tiara and you are +8hps and some -ss. and that is without losing maxint notch and !summon like i did. worthwhile? i think so.
Whats stoping me from getting suit of ancients? i have no idea where is it from.
Yes yet there is some reason why i see clerics with bevor which is has worse stats than ggmask. there will always be items that are statsu symbols. knew zones are coming in new things discovered.
------------------
Moritheil is dead! R.I.P
Your receive back exp you lost in his groups!
You raise a level!
[This message has been edited by oteb (edited 12-12-2002).]
So after a 3 month quest, a number of hard rares, and going out and getting another seperate item, you have gained 8 hps and some svspell. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
yeah im convinced. 868 hps and having -27 svspell is definately better than 860 hps and -24 svspell, so it must be worth the 3 extra months of effort it took to make that tiny, tiny jump.
You really don't see a flaw in this logic?
------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
Belleshel group-says 'hmm Im not sure why miax and company doesn't scrap the mud and let thanuk run it
his way.. it's obviously the right way.'
yeah im convinced. 868 hps and having -27 svspell is definately better than 860 hps and -24 svspell, so it must be worth the 3 extra months of effort it took to make that tiny, tiny jump.
You really don't see a flaw in this logic?
------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
Belleshel group-says 'hmm Im not sure why miax and company doesn't scrap the mud and let thanuk run it
his way.. it's obviously the right way.'
Oooh more random thoughts from me..
1. Make some items like amy ring, ET earrings, etc. more random loads. Slow down the flood of some of the better gear in the game...
2. Quests -- I think we all pretty agree that time/effort does not equal reward. Possible ideas include upgrading quests, maybe allow for name changes/ansi changes (within some sort of guidelines of course). Personal thoughts, quest eq should be the best eq.
3. Maybe more eq in the harder zones. Sometimes, I don't wanna do the harder zones because only 3 worthwhile pieces of eq at the end. If you lose the bid, you sorta wasted your time. The eq I'm thinking about doesn't have be the greatest, but something so we can feel a reward of some type...(more fly eq, WB eq with +1hit or something) Nothing game changing, a peace of mind thing...
4. More quests to suck up the more common but good eq (again, amy ring, ET earrings, etc.)
Would help curb the flow of newer players getting these pieces, while others are out zoning and busting their asses for a reward they feel isn't justified. End of quest a slightly better piece, but as we have said, these zones are easier. Could lure other veteran players back to these zones....I for one don't mind some tips...only way I will learn.
5. Change mob locations in zones...make challanges instead of "Ho hum, rogue sneak here, illusionist fold, group enter, trash mob, leave with eq..."
Only problem I can with some of these ideas atm is this : the better players have enough gaming skills that many changes won't effect them. Only hurt the newer players....but mind you, I may be missing something...
Also, tough call for the admins. I'd like to thank you for reading these posts and trying to sort this dilemma out. We don't want to hurt the new blood in the game, or drive out the old blood either. Both are needed...
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Meatshield
1. Make some items like amy ring, ET earrings, etc. more random loads. Slow down the flood of some of the better gear in the game...
2. Quests -- I think we all pretty agree that time/effort does not equal reward. Possible ideas include upgrading quests, maybe allow for name changes/ansi changes (within some sort of guidelines of course). Personal thoughts, quest eq should be the best eq.
3. Maybe more eq in the harder zones. Sometimes, I don't wanna do the harder zones because only 3 worthwhile pieces of eq at the end. If you lose the bid, you sorta wasted your time. The eq I'm thinking about doesn't have be the greatest, but something so we can feel a reward of some type...(more fly eq, WB eq with +1hit or something) Nothing game changing, a peace of mind thing...
4. More quests to suck up the more common but good eq (again, amy ring, ET earrings, etc.)
Would help curb the flow of newer players getting these pieces, while others are out zoning and busting their asses for a reward they feel isn't justified. End of quest a slightly better piece, but as we have said, these zones are easier. Could lure other veteran players back to these zones....I for one don't mind some tips...only way I will learn.
5. Change mob locations in zones...make challanges instead of "Ho hum, rogue sneak here, illusionist fold, group enter, trash mob, leave with eq..."
Only problem I can with some of these ideas atm is this : the better players have enough gaming skills that many changes won't effect them. Only hurt the newer players....but mind you, I may be missing something...
Also, tough call for the admins. I'd like to thank you for reading these posts and trying to sort this dilemma out. We don't want to hurt the new blood in the game, or drive out the old blood either. Both are needed...
------------------
Meatshield
I dont see flaw in that logic. I had 3 months of fun getting it,i did a quest no-one done b4, i learned knew things about the mud, i have earned a status symbol. Sorry but if getting eq,learning new things,being first to do somthing on mud is not fun for you you should find another pastime.
------------------
Moritheil is dead! R.I.P
Your receive back exp you lost in his groups!
You raise a level!
------------------
Moritheil is dead! R.I.P
Your receive back exp you lost in his groups!
You raise a level!
Re: Thanuk
"Ok i have a question. I have seen both Jhorr and Daz say that lowering the stats on eq will not make the game any harder. Arilin pointed this out in his post, you both think the difficulty level would not change if eq was downgraded. So if it doesn't matter, then what is the problem if it gets downgraded?"
Downgrading EQ is only a temporary fix to a problem that doesn't even exist for the majority of players. Most people on the MUD take pride in the rewards they've won by valuable time invested and then having a little luck to win competitive bids. Tweaking items by a few hps here and there won't solve anything in the long run. The analogy of clouds earring to Meilich is poor because a zone isn't supposed to have the best EQ for all slots represented. Just because clouds is harder doesn't mean that all clouds EQ has to be better than all Meilich EQ.
Also, this thread has been created and dominated by goodie players. I wonder what the evil player base thinks about it.
"Ok i have a question. I have seen both Jhorr and Daz say that lowering the stats on eq will not make the game any harder. Arilin pointed this out in his post, you both think the difficulty level would not change if eq was downgraded. So if it doesn't matter, then what is the problem if it gets downgraded?"
Downgrading EQ is only a temporary fix to a problem that doesn't even exist for the majority of players. Most people on the MUD take pride in the rewards they've won by valuable time invested and then having a little luck to win competitive bids. Tweaking items by a few hps here and there won't solve anything in the long run. The analogy of clouds earring to Meilich is poor because a zone isn't supposed to have the best EQ for all slots represented. Just because clouds is harder doesn't mean that all clouds EQ has to be better than all Meilich EQ.
Also, this thread has been created and dominated by goodie players. I wonder what the evil player base thinks about it.
Re: Thanuk
"So after a 3 month quest, a number of hard rares, and going out and getting another seperate item, you have gained 8 hps and some svspell. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
yeah im convinced. 868 hps and having -27 svspell is definately better than 860 hps and -24 svspell, so it must be worth the 3 extra months of effort it took to make that tiny, tiny jump.
You really don't see a flaw in this logic?"
The question is what magnitude of a jump are you advocating for? At the higher end of the EQ scale, I would say that it SHOULD become more and more challenging to improve your kit. As Dug agreed, the relationship between investment and reward should become logarithmic as the rewards get better and better, not remain linear. This is how the MUD currently prevents us all from maxxing out our kits too soon. If you REALLY want to max it out, you should HAVE to do laborious and risky quests for what may seem like a small upgrade, but an upgrade nonetheless.
"So after a 3 month quest, a number of hard rares, and going out and getting another seperate item, you have gained 8 hps and some svspell. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
yeah im convinced. 868 hps and having -27 svspell is definately better than 860 hps and -24 svspell, so it must be worth the 3 extra months of effort it took to make that tiny, tiny jump.
You really don't see a flaw in this logic?"
The question is what magnitude of a jump are you advocating for? At the higher end of the EQ scale, I would say that it SHOULD become more and more challenging to improve your kit. As Dug agreed, the relationship between investment and reward should become logarithmic as the rewards get better and better, not remain linear. This is how the MUD currently prevents us all from maxxing out our kits too soon. If you REALLY want to max it out, you should HAVE to do laborious and risky quests for what may seem like a small upgrade, but an upgrade nonetheless.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by oteb:
<B>I dont see flaw in that logic. I had 3 months of fun getting it,i did a quest no-one done b4, i learned knew things about the mud, i have earned a status symbol. Sorry but if getting eq,learning new things,being first to do somthing on mud is not fun for you you should find another pastime.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Getting eq, learning new things, and being the first to do something is fun for me. Checking rares for months, putting in more time and effort for less rewards, and being no better off than someone who hasn't done any of these things is not fun for me. That is why i suggest change. If you don't want the change thats ok, but don't tell me to quit because you like everything the way it is. "If you dont like it then leave" is not a very positive attitude, and i dont really appreciate it, as i am doing my best to keep this thread civil because i think the point behind it is more important than any petty squabble i may have with another player on the BBS. Im glad you feel that your efforts were rewarded properly for the quest you completed. Congratulations on being the first to do it, finishing any long quest is an accomplishment in itself, figuring it out as well is even better. But the results of your quest is not the same as the results of others, and just because risk vs. reward in this case is evenly balanced, does not mean that this is true of every quest. Keep an open mind to all the quests you haven't completed as well.
------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
Belleshel group-says 'hmm Im not sure why miax and company doesn't scrap the mud and let thanuk run it
his way.. it's obviously the right way.'
<B>I dont see flaw in that logic. I had 3 months of fun getting it,i did a quest no-one done b4, i learned knew things about the mud, i have earned a status symbol. Sorry but if getting eq,learning new things,being first to do somthing on mud is not fun for you you should find another pastime.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Getting eq, learning new things, and being the first to do something is fun for me. Checking rares for months, putting in more time and effort for less rewards, and being no better off than someone who hasn't done any of these things is not fun for me. That is why i suggest change. If you don't want the change thats ok, but don't tell me to quit because you like everything the way it is. "If you dont like it then leave" is not a very positive attitude, and i dont really appreciate it, as i am doing my best to keep this thread civil because i think the point behind it is more important than any petty squabble i may have with another player on the BBS. Im glad you feel that your efforts were rewarded properly for the quest you completed. Congratulations on being the first to do it, finishing any long quest is an accomplishment in itself, figuring it out as well is even better. But the results of your quest is not the same as the results of others, and just because risk vs. reward in this case is evenly balanced, does not mean that this is true of every quest. Keep an open mind to all the quests you haven't completed as well.
------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
Belleshel group-says 'hmm Im not sure why miax and company doesn't scrap the mud and let thanuk run it
his way.. it's obviously the right way.'
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by oteb:
<B> you seem to forget about sense life. you get sense life from earring ditch headband of 1k eyes get diamond tiara and you are +8hps and some -ss. and that is without losing maxint notch and !summon like i did. worthwhile? i think so.
Whats stoping me from getting suit of ancients? i have no idea where is it from.
Yes yet there is some reason why i see clerics with bevor which is has worse stats than ggmask. there will always be items that are statsu symbols. knew zones are coming in new things discovered.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
wow i got sense life from the earring! maybe i wont' need the sense life from my amulet of sight. or i guess i won't use my reflective goggles or my 1k headband. wearing diamond tiara is something for !evil. i'm evil mage. or i won't have to cast sense life. not like u really need sense life at all times as a mage. there's always raven eyepatch too
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Shevarash OOC: 'I never thought I'd long for Muma to be on OOC'
<B> you seem to forget about sense life. you get sense life from earring ditch headband of 1k eyes get diamond tiara and you are +8hps and some -ss. and that is without losing maxint notch and !summon like i did. worthwhile? i think so.
Whats stoping me from getting suit of ancients? i have no idea where is it from.
Yes yet there is some reason why i see clerics with bevor which is has worse stats than ggmask. there will always be items that are statsu symbols. knew zones are coming in new things discovered.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
wow i got sense life from the earring! maybe i wont' need the sense life from my amulet of sight. or i guess i won't use my reflective goggles or my 1k headband. wearing diamond tiara is something for !evil. i'm evil mage. or i won't have to cast sense life. not like u really need sense life at all times as a mage. there's always raven eyepatch too
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Shevarash OOC: 'I never thought I'd long for Muma to be on OOC'
In response to Jhorr:
1st Post:
I realize that downgrading eq is not a permanent fix to the problem, although i disagree it is not a problem that faces most of the players here, even if they wont admit it. But for the life of me, i cannot think of any permanent way to fix it. I have in the past suggested other methods of making eq better rather than more hps more hit/dam more saves. I suggested adding more perm di/infra/sense life eq at the high end, so that it could be eq that is always worn rather than utility eq. I also suggested giving out low level spells as procs for equipment, spells like armor bark and bless. All of these suggestions were discarded on the basis that they would make a single character too powerful. This is the same reason that 100 hps rings and 5 damroll earrings dont exist; they would make a single character too powerful. It seems there is no permanent solution, as the mud is continually changing and needs continual balancing. To work within the set parameters, where one character can only become so powerful, i feel the easiest and most direct manner of correcting the problem is to downgrade equipment that grants significant power without requiring significant effort to acquire them.
As for the meilech earring example, i agree and disagree with you. I agree that not every clouds item should be better than every meilech item, just because clouds is harder. I do believe that if there are 2 earrings, one in each zone, and 1 earring is more powerful than the other, that the more powerful earring should come from the more difficult zone. Does clouds need to add a pair of gauntlets that is better than the gauntlets in meilech? No. Should the earring that is already in clouds be better than the earring in meilech? yes.
I am also interested in hearing what the evil pbase has to say about this, although i suspect more of them agree with you than with me.
As to your second post:
I agree that rewards need to become harder and harder as you go. But it still needs to fall into scale. The point of a downgrade is this: 8 hps and -3 svspell isn't really an upgrade at all if you have 850 hps and -25 svspell already. It is a much more significant upgrade if you have 650 hps and -15 svspell beforehand. I realize that it should be harder and harder to get better and better. However, i think that rather than having it be relatively easy to get to an almost maxxed kit, and then having an obscene amount of difficulty and tediousness in order to get those exra 5 saving throws and extra 20 hps is not the way it should be. Its like if you level up to level 49, but then to get level 50, you have to triple the amount of exp that it took you to get from 1-49. There should be more steps along the way. Similarly, rather than have everyone walking around in the same equipment, with the 10% of players walking around in eq thats just a slight bit better than that, i think it should be more spread out. People who just do exp and the easy zones should not have as good eq as people who do the moderate zones as well, who should not have good eq as the people who do the hardest zones. And the people who do the hardest zones should not have as good eq as the people who do all the hardest zones and hardest quests. But currently, everyone has the same eq, and the people who do the hardest zones and all the hard quests have a few items that are a little better than everyone elses. I think there should be many different stages of improvement between the bottom and the top, rather than everyone being at the same level.
------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
Belleshel group-says 'hmm Im not sure why miax and company doesn't scrap the mud and let thanuk run it
his way.. it's obviously the right way.'
1st Post:
I realize that downgrading eq is not a permanent fix to the problem, although i disagree it is not a problem that faces most of the players here, even if they wont admit it. But for the life of me, i cannot think of any permanent way to fix it. I have in the past suggested other methods of making eq better rather than more hps more hit/dam more saves. I suggested adding more perm di/infra/sense life eq at the high end, so that it could be eq that is always worn rather than utility eq. I also suggested giving out low level spells as procs for equipment, spells like armor bark and bless. All of these suggestions were discarded on the basis that they would make a single character too powerful. This is the same reason that 100 hps rings and 5 damroll earrings dont exist; they would make a single character too powerful. It seems there is no permanent solution, as the mud is continually changing and needs continual balancing. To work within the set parameters, where one character can only become so powerful, i feel the easiest and most direct manner of correcting the problem is to downgrade equipment that grants significant power without requiring significant effort to acquire them.
As for the meilech earring example, i agree and disagree with you. I agree that not every clouds item should be better than every meilech item, just because clouds is harder. I do believe that if there are 2 earrings, one in each zone, and 1 earring is more powerful than the other, that the more powerful earring should come from the more difficult zone. Does clouds need to add a pair of gauntlets that is better than the gauntlets in meilech? No. Should the earring that is already in clouds be better than the earring in meilech? yes.
I am also interested in hearing what the evil pbase has to say about this, although i suspect more of them agree with you than with me.
As to your second post:
I agree that rewards need to become harder and harder as you go. But it still needs to fall into scale. The point of a downgrade is this: 8 hps and -3 svspell isn't really an upgrade at all if you have 850 hps and -25 svspell already. It is a much more significant upgrade if you have 650 hps and -15 svspell beforehand. I realize that it should be harder and harder to get better and better. However, i think that rather than having it be relatively easy to get to an almost maxxed kit, and then having an obscene amount of difficulty and tediousness in order to get those exra 5 saving throws and extra 20 hps is not the way it should be. Its like if you level up to level 49, but then to get level 50, you have to triple the amount of exp that it took you to get from 1-49. There should be more steps along the way. Similarly, rather than have everyone walking around in the same equipment, with the 10% of players walking around in eq thats just a slight bit better than that, i think it should be more spread out. People who just do exp and the easy zones should not have as good eq as people who do the moderate zones as well, who should not have good eq as the people who do the hardest zones. And the people who do the hardest zones should not have as good eq as the people who do all the hardest zones and hardest quests. But currently, everyone has the same eq, and the people who do the hardest zones and all the hard quests have a few items that are a little better than everyone elses. I think there should be many different stages of improvement between the bottom and the top, rather than everyone being at the same level.
------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
Belleshel group-says 'hmm Im not sure why miax and company doesn't scrap the mud and let thanuk run it
his way.. it's obviously the right way.'
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashiwi:
People have been begging him to find a new pasttime for years, it just doesn't work.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I had a new passtime till your momma quit dancing! OMG 2 points for me!
------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
Belleshel group-says 'hmm Im not sure why miax and company doesn't scrap the mud and let thanuk run it
his way.. it's obviously the right way.'
People have been begging him to find a new pasttime for years, it just doesn't work.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I had a new passtime till your momma quit dancing! OMG 2 points for me!
------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
Belleshel group-says 'hmm Im not sure why miax and company doesn't scrap the mud and let thanuk run it
his way.. it's obviously the right way.'
There is a Polish proverb
'The art is not catching the rabbit, the art is chasing it'
I have fun cashing the rabbit but maybe some tweaks are need to satisfy also those who just enjoy catching it.
I rest my case.
------------------
Moritheil is dead! R.I.P
Your receive back exp you lost in his groups!
You raise a level!
'The art is not catching the rabbit, the art is chasing it'
I have fun cashing the rabbit but maybe some tweaks are need to satisfy also those who just enjoy catching it.
I rest my case.
------------------
Moritheil is dead! R.I.P
Your receive back exp you lost in his groups!
You raise a level!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by oteb:
<B>There is a Polish proverb
'The art is not catching the rabbit, the art is chasing it'
I have fun cashing the rabbit but maybe some tweaks are need to satisfy also those who just enjoy catching it.
I rest my case.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You should read "The old man and the sea" by Ernest Hemingway.
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Thanuk Pantherclaw
Belleshel group-says 'hmm Im not sure why miax and company doesn't scrap the mud and let thanuk run it
his way.. it's obviously the right way.'
<B>There is a Polish proverb
'The art is not catching the rabbit, the art is chasing it'
I have fun cashing the rabbit but maybe some tweaks are need to satisfy also those who just enjoy catching it.
I rest my case.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You should read "The old man and the sea" by Ernest Hemingway.
------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
Belleshel group-says 'hmm Im not sure why miax and company doesn't scrap the mud and let thanuk run it
his way.. it's obviously the right way.'
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B> I had a new passtime till your momma quit dancing! OMG 2 points for me!
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Damn Thanuk, My mama's 60, get over it and find another partner already. She always hated when you grabbed her ass anyway.
<B> I had a new passtime till your momma quit dancing! OMG 2 points for me!
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Damn Thanuk, My mama's 60, get over it and find another partner already. She always hated when you grabbed her ass anyway.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashiwi:
Damn Thanuk, My mama's 60, get over it and find another partner already. She always hated when you grabbed her ass anyway.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
downgrade ashiwi's mom.
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Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'
Damn Thanuk, My mama's 60, get over it and find another partner already. She always hated when you grabbed her ass anyway.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
downgrade ashiwi's mom.
------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'
-
Ilshadrial
- Sojourner
- Posts: 417
- Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Atlanta
- Contact:
Why not just half all the hp eq in the game so you bitches will spank more!
HP is way out of hand, it is too silly!!!
75 hp ring comming from TF, please, time to ditch that shit! All mega hp rings should be quest, or come from a really hard zone with possible spankage, then you people will appreciate shit.
da TA!
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Ilshad
"Your accomplishment is nothing compared to the glory that is Ilshadrial!!" Yayaril
HP is way out of hand, it is too silly!!!
75 hp ring comming from TF, please, time to ditch that shit! All mega hp rings should be quest, or come from a really hard zone with possible spankage, then you people will appreciate shit.
da TA!
------------------
Ilshad
"Your accomplishment is nothing compared to the glory that is Ilshadrial!!" Yayaril
Thanuk, when you originally responded to my post, you mentioned about how disappointed i would be going to clouds, citadel, etc.
I do not now, nor can i recall ever, want to do these zones for the equipment. all equipment is bonus, always - and in a group, you have no promise of winning eq anyway. I want to do each and every one of these zones so that I can say I have. So that I can learn what to do while I am there. So I can be a little bit better as a player.
Because its fun.
I do not now, nor can i recall ever, want to do these zones for the equipment. all equipment is bonus, always - and in a group, you have no promise of winning eq anyway. I want to do each and every one of these zones so that I can say I have. So that I can learn what to do while I am there. So I can be a little bit better as a player.
Because its fun.
For now it is Daz.. And I said the same thing at first. But when you run the zones, they become less fun and more hanging with friends.
I won't lie, I love clouds. It's my fave zone in the game. However, I go there for the eq also. It's spanktacular when groups f-up... But saying you aren't interested in the eq is foreign to me.
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Malacar - omg ymir!
Tanji ASSOC:: 'god was blueballed the night before he made Thanuk'
I won't lie, I love clouds. It's my fave zone in the game. However, I go there for the eq also. It's spanktacular when groups f-up... But saying you aren't interested in the eq is foreign to me.
------------------
Malacar - omg ymir!
Tanji ASSOC:: 'god was blueballed the night before he made Thanuk'
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B> Thanuk, when you originally responded to my post, you mentioned about how disappointed i would be going to clouds, citadel, etc.
I do not now, nor can i recall ever, want to do these zones for the equipment. all equipment is bonus, always - and in a group, you have no promise of winning eq anyway. I want to do each and every one of these zones so that I can say I have. So that I can learn what to do while I am there. So I can be a little bit better as a player.
Because its fun.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ok so you dont zone for equipment because equipment doesnt matter. But downgrading equipment will ruin the game. You wouldn't go to clouds or zones like it to get equipment, because equipment is always a bonus. But if eq gets downgraded you wont be able to go there because you dont have good enough equipment. So is it a bonus, or is it a neccessity? Does equipment not matter, or is it the defining point between being able to do a zone and not being able to? Your playing both sides of the coin, and thats not gonna swing. You have to pick a side before you can argue for it.
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Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'
<B> Thanuk, when you originally responded to my post, you mentioned about how disappointed i would be going to clouds, citadel, etc.
I do not now, nor can i recall ever, want to do these zones for the equipment. all equipment is bonus, always - and in a group, you have no promise of winning eq anyway. I want to do each and every one of these zones so that I can say I have. So that I can learn what to do while I am there. So I can be a little bit better as a player.
Because its fun.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ok so you dont zone for equipment because equipment doesnt matter. But downgrading equipment will ruin the game. You wouldn't go to clouds or zones like it to get equipment, because equipment is always a bonus. But if eq gets downgraded you wont be able to go there because you dont have good enough equipment. So is it a bonus, or is it a neccessity? Does equipment not matter, or is it the defining point between being able to do a zone and not being able to? Your playing both sides of the coin, and thats not gonna swing. You have to pick a side before you can argue for it.
------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
Ok so you dont zone for equipment because equipment doesnt matter. But downgrading equipment will ruin the game. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
He wants to zone for fun. He goes to zone. But he needs to survive > 1 minute in order to have fun.
Downgrading eq takes away his ability to zone and have fun. It's not that he doesn't zone, it's just that he does it for fun.
The point is that you cannot say 'this will affect only us' or something like that when you call for downgrades on a lot of commonly used eq.
------------------
Shevarash responds to your petition with 'You are the wind beneath my wings.'
Ok so you dont zone for equipment because equipment doesnt matter. But downgrading equipment will ruin the game. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
He wants to zone for fun. He goes to zone. But he needs to survive > 1 minute in order to have fun.
Downgrading eq takes away his ability to zone and have fun. It's not that he doesn't zone, it's just that he does it for fun.
The point is that you cannot say 'this will affect only us' or something like that when you call for downgrades on a lot of commonly used eq.
------------------
Shevarash responds to your petition with 'You are the wind beneath my wings.'
nukie your failing on one point bro.
no matter how hard a zone in time that zone will become easier, case in point, tia, until finally it was made so impossible to do, then you remove monks from game making almost not doable at all.
hell remember how hard jot was in the beginning or brass? it is not the zones are easy it is players get better.
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Her Royal Bitchness Eye Aeturnum
no matter how hard a zone in time that zone will become easier, case in point, tia, until finally it was made so impossible to do, then you remove monks from game making almost not doable at all.
hell remember how hard jot was in the beginning or brass? it is not the zones are easy it is players get better.
------------------
Her Royal Bitchness Eye Aeturnum
-
Xisiqomelir
- Sojourner
- Posts: 870
- Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2002 5:01 am
- Location: Ixarkon
- Contact:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jhorr:
<B>
Also, this thread has been created and dominated by goodie players. I wonder what the evil player base thinks about it.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, you asked, so don't complain if you don't like what I think.
Personally I don't mind changes so long as they're fair. Across the board downgrades affect everyone, so that satisfies the "fair" requirement. Thanuk's proposal therefore doesn't fire off my "rabidly oppose till it dies" trigger, so I can't say that I have anything strongly against it. (unlike "Term/Del/Siteban all the players of this class because I dislike it")
As to whether or not I actually like any parts of the idea, my personal opinion is that it's taking three steps forward and two steps back. This idea doesn't affect the actual caps of eq, so if it goes in, everyone loses 200 hp, then eventually simply gets it back after a month or two of zoning. The first part will feel terrible, as downgrades do, and in the end you're back where you started. No real feeling of improvement. (Improvement from the downgrade yes, but everyone will take pre-downgrade as the point of reference, and view their downgraded stats as anomalies) Personally I wouldn't mind, since it would necessitate doing zones again.
Your wanting the new top-end eq to come from hard zones is a point that probably will go down well, since the Evils invariably lose the reboot race to Brass/TF/Jot and end up doing harder zones instead.
------------------
Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"
<B>
Also, this thread has been created and dominated by goodie players. I wonder what the evil player base thinks about it.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, you asked, so don't complain if you don't like what I think.
Personally I don't mind changes so long as they're fair. Across the board downgrades affect everyone, so that satisfies the "fair" requirement. Thanuk's proposal therefore doesn't fire off my "rabidly oppose till it dies" trigger, so I can't say that I have anything strongly against it. (unlike "Term/Del/Siteban all the players of this class because I dislike it")
As to whether or not I actually like any parts of the idea, my personal opinion is that it's taking three steps forward and two steps back. This idea doesn't affect the actual caps of eq, so if it goes in, everyone loses 200 hp, then eventually simply gets it back after a month or two of zoning. The first part will feel terrible, as downgrades do, and in the end you're back where you started. No real feeling of improvement. (Improvement from the downgrade yes, but everyone will take pre-downgrade as the point of reference, and view their downgraded stats as anomalies) Personally I wouldn't mind, since it would necessitate doing zones again.
Your wanting the new top-end eq to come from hard zones is a point that probably will go down well, since the Evils invariably lose the reboot race to Brass/TF/Jot and end up doing harder zones instead.
------------------
Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"
While I fully agree with balancing equip, I see no advantage in downgrading equip. So all the mages have 200 less hp, as a cleric who types group every round to watch hp I can tell you that it's very rare people get below 200hp unless the goups about to get spanked or the tanks aren't doing their jobs. This will have no effect on the rate things die (it's all spell damage). Want things to be harder and groups spank more? Let's just cut all warriors hp in half, they'll die and mages will follow... there groups are spanked and everyone screaming for downgrades is happy.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bipple:
While I fully agree with balancing equip, I see no advantage in downgrading equip. So all the mages have 200 less hp, as a cleric who types group every round to watch hp I can tell you that it's very rare people get below 200hp unless the goups about to get spanked or the tanks aren't doing their jobs. This will have no effect on the rate things die (it's all spell damage). Want things to be harder and groups spank more? Let's just cut all warriors hp in half, they'll die and mages will follow... there groups are spanked and everyone screaming for downgrades is happy. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just 1 more reason to dg Full Heal.
Twinshadow
------------------
Kribble tells you 'everytime I've seen you die it was doing something cool or trying to save someone's ass... die away!'
While I fully agree with balancing equip, I see no advantage in downgrading equip. So all the mages have 200 less hp, as a cleric who types group every round to watch hp I can tell you that it's very rare people get below 200hp unless the goups about to get spanked or the tanks aren't doing their jobs. This will have no effect on the rate things die (it's all spell damage). Want things to be harder and groups spank more? Let's just cut all warriors hp in half, they'll die and mages will follow... there groups are spanked and everyone screaming for downgrades is happy. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just 1 more reason to dg Full Heal.
Twinshadow
------------------
Kribble tells you 'everytime I've seen you die it was doing something cool or trying to save someone's ass... die away!'
I dont know if it seems that i implied this idea, but i am not trying to make the once hard, now easy zones hard again by downgrading equip. Jot is still gonna be easy, Muspelhiem is still gonna be hard. The point of downgrading eq is to make room for better eq to come in later. Its gonna take alot more than losing 200 hps to make these zones hard again, because they just werent made to fight against illusionists and elemental fire embody and all the other kewl new toys that players have gotten since the zone came in.
But thats really the point. The zone is not hard anymore, and yet it still has eq with the same stats on it as when it was the hardest zone in the game. Hell jot is actually pretty balanced in my opinion, so its a bad example here.
Im really talking about places like brass, ET, tf, and the like. At one point these zones were difficult, and justified the rewards that were given in them. But they are not difficult any longer, and no longer justify their rewards. In addition to this, newer, harder zones that are geared toward fighting groups with the current skills we have are in the game, with eq rewards that are significantly inferior to the stuff that comes from these zones. I dont think this is the way it should be.
The goal is not to make everything hard again;there should be easier zones, faster zones;there should be different levels of difficulty for different zones. But the rewards gotten should correspond with these levels of difficulty, and they currently do not.
hey Sissu i used paragraphs
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Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'
But thats really the point. The zone is not hard anymore, and yet it still has eq with the same stats on it as when it was the hardest zone in the game. Hell jot is actually pretty balanced in my opinion, so its a bad example here.
Im really talking about places like brass, ET, tf, and the like. At one point these zones were difficult, and justified the rewards that were given in them. But they are not difficult any longer, and no longer justify their rewards. In addition to this, newer, harder zones that are geared toward fighting groups with the current skills we have are in the game, with eq rewards that are significantly inferior to the stuff that comes from these zones. I dont think this is the way it should be.
The goal is not to make everything hard again;there should be easier zones, faster zones;there should be different levels of difficulty for different zones. But the rewards gotten should correspond with these levels of difficulty, and they currently do not.
hey Sissu i used paragraphs
------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B> He wants to zone for fun. He goes to zone. But he needs to survive > 1 minute in order to have fun.
Downgrading eq takes away his ability to zone and have fun. It's not that he doesn't zone, it's just that he does it for fun.
The point is that you cannot say 'this will affect only us' or something like that when you call for downgrades on a lot of commonly used eq.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
First of all im not saying it will affect only us. It will effect everyone, thats the point. Remember that it wouldn't effect everyone if everyont didnt all wear the same eq Oh and btw you gotta have some pretty crappy stuff to not be able to survive in any zone for 1 minute or more. If you hve 400 hps you can live, it wont be pretty, but you can make it Also if losing 50 hps is enough of a change that you can no longer zone, then you probably dont have most of the eq that im suggesting to downgrade, or at least you shouldnt.
------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'
<B> He wants to zone for fun. He goes to zone. But he needs to survive > 1 minute in order to have fun.
Downgrading eq takes away his ability to zone and have fun. It's not that he doesn't zone, it's just that he does it for fun.
The point is that you cannot say 'this will affect only us' or something like that when you call for downgrades on a lot of commonly used eq.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
First of all im not saying it will affect only us. It will effect everyone, thats the point. Remember that it wouldn't effect everyone if everyont didnt all wear the same eq
Oh and btw you gotta have some pretty crappy stuff to not be able to survive in any zone for 1 minute or more. If you hve 400 hps you can live, it wont be pretty, but you can make it Also if losing 50 hps is enough of a change that you can no longer zone, then you probably dont have most of the eq that im suggesting to downgrade, or at least you shouldnt.------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'
< 445h/445H 138v/138V >
Yes, that's the hps I go into zone with. I realize there's a difference between rogues and other players, but damn people, if I can survive with this, you can find ways to survive with 700 hps instead of 800.
All those corpses of mine you see strewn about? I usually rack those up soloing.
Yes, that's the hps I go into zone with. I realize there's a difference between rogues and other players, but damn people, if I can survive with this, you can find ways to survive with 700 hps instead of 800.
All those corpses of mine you see strewn about? I usually rack those up soloing.
-
Guest
I didn't read every post, I skimmed over the last page, but I felt that I wanted to post 'something' considering that I am one person who makes areas.
I have discussed lowering stats of select items, so that the Risk vs. reward in today's game, (not 50th levels, by today's game i mean, lotsa areas, new classes etc) on top of letting harder zones actually have eq worth doing without being crazy stats. This is the problem, it won't be done, not any time soon. The minute even 10 pieces of eq stats are changed, is the same minute we receive 400,000 tells complaining about it. So it comes down to one little phrase.
You can keep some of the mudders happy all the time. You can keep all the mudders happy some of the time, but you can't keep all the mudders happy all the time.
If you had never known that eldritch ring was only 75 hps, and you thought it was 65 hps forever, when you got it, and it was 65 hps would be any worse off? no. The point of lowering stats on alot of equipment is to help keep item inflation under control.
------------------
Kelemvor - God of the Dead, and Cemeteries
Areas Wank
I have discussed lowering stats of select items, so that the Risk vs. reward in today's game, (not 50th levels, by today's game i mean, lotsa areas, new classes etc) on top of letting harder zones actually have eq worth doing without being crazy stats. This is the problem, it won't be done, not any time soon. The minute even 10 pieces of eq stats are changed, is the same minute we receive 400,000 tells complaining about it. So it comes down to one little phrase.
You can keep some of the mudders happy all the time. You can keep all the mudders happy some of the time, but you can't keep all the mudders happy all the time.
If you had never known that eldritch ring was only 75 hps, and you thought it was 65 hps forever, when you got it, and it was 65 hps would be any worse off? no. The point of lowering stats on alot of equipment is to help keep item inflation under control.
------------------
Kelemvor - God of the Dead, and Cemeteries
Areas Wank
Thanks for responding, Kelemvor. From your post i can only infer that you and some of the other gods like Savras realize that this is a problem. Its real easy for me to sit here and suggest things to change, because im not the one who is gonna take the flack for it when it happens. If nothing is going to change for a while, fair enough, because if this thread got 100+ posts in 2 days, i can only imagine how many players who dont read/post on the bbs would be bugging you guys about it. Good luck finding a solution, this is obviously a delicate area, and a conservative approach is best. Thanks for listening.
------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'
------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'
You have a point Kelemvor, but unfortunately, we've already gotten the 75 hp eldritch rings. If all the equipment is downgraded, I'll be zoning in order to gain back the stuff I already had. It just seems like a waste- you know, like how when your equipment gets nuked, it seems like a waste to try and get the same stuff you had before. I don't see the problem with just removing the equipment cap and having zones and quests just keep getting harder. Heck- the area guys are making the zones harder and harder anyway. When I run a DnD game, the challenges for the players get harder and harder and the benefits get higher and higher. So far I haven't had a problem with things getting too 'easy' for them. Of course, if the players had the ability to go back in time and do some of the earlier challenges, then they're going to easily cut through it- this works on the same level as the mud. Jot isn't the same level of difficulty it was before, because we've grown in level, knowledge, skill, and equipment. Let's just keep going! Down with equipment caps!
------------------
-Yayaril
------------------
-Yayaril
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yayaril:
<B>You have a point Kelemvor, but unfortunately, we've already gotten the 75 hp eldritch rings. If all the equipment is downgraded, I'll be zoning in order to gain back the stuff I already had. It just seems like a waste- you know, like how when your equipment gets nuked, it seems like a waste to try and get the same stuff you had before. I don't see the problem with just removing the equipment cap and having zones and quests just keep getting harder. Heck- the area guys are making the zones harder and harder anyway. When I run a DnD game, the challenges for the players get harder and harder and the benefits get higher and higher. So far I haven't had a problem with things getting too 'easy' for them. Of course, if the players had the ability to go back in time and do some of the earlier challenges, then they're going to easily cut through it- this works on the same level as the mud. Jot isn't the same level of difficulty it was before, because we've grown in level, knowledge, skill, and equipment. Let's just keep going! Down with equipment caps!
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Recap, my last post:
<I>One problem which might not be considered in this thread. The reason for eq caps is that without them, PCs start to seriously overpower mobs. Mobs are limited to lvl 59, so really the way to make zones 'harder' is just to keep putting in more and more mobs, until you get to the Tia type fight where its basically just attrition.
Please also remember the number of posts and gripes about Tia back when she was still in the game? About how the fight was just mindless running, killing and dying?
I mean... this game is 'loosely' based on AD&D right? At least the monster manual general info. Dragons are ultra rare and extremely territorial, so how long before the 4, 6, 8 dragon-in-the-same-room fights become ridiculous/outlandish?
Anyway, point is: Mobs have a cap too, therefore zones can't really just keep getting harder and harder without it reverting to an attrition fight. (they can try though)
</I>
Basically, the way the mud works would be like your AD&D campaign where your Players have unlimited level caps, but all your encounters have a cap of level 5. You can keep adding more and more level 5 monsters to the encounter, but at what point is that just ridiculous?
EQ caps are there for a reason, so player power doesn't way overbalance mob power.
Hrm. Maybe I'll put in an aggro group of 15 global tracking mobs in my next zone and see how ya all do if the tables were turned
<B>You have a point Kelemvor, but unfortunately, we've already gotten the 75 hp eldritch rings. If all the equipment is downgraded, I'll be zoning in order to gain back the stuff I already had. It just seems like a waste- you know, like how when your equipment gets nuked, it seems like a waste to try and get the same stuff you had before. I don't see the problem with just removing the equipment cap and having zones and quests just keep getting harder. Heck- the area guys are making the zones harder and harder anyway. When I run a DnD game, the challenges for the players get harder and harder and the benefits get higher and higher. So far I haven't had a problem with things getting too 'easy' for them. Of course, if the players had the ability to go back in time and do some of the earlier challenges, then they're going to easily cut through it- this works on the same level as the mud. Jot isn't the same level of difficulty it was before, because we've grown in level, knowledge, skill, and equipment. Let's just keep going! Down with equipment caps!
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Recap, my last post:
<I>One problem which might not be considered in this thread. The reason for eq caps is that without them, PCs start to seriously overpower mobs. Mobs are limited to lvl 59, so really the way to make zones 'harder' is just to keep putting in more and more mobs, until you get to the Tia type fight where its basically just attrition.
Please also remember the number of posts and gripes about Tia back when she was still in the game? About how the fight was just mindless running, killing and dying?
I mean... this game is 'loosely' based on AD&D right? At least the monster manual general info. Dragons are ultra rare and extremely territorial, so how long before the 4, 6, 8 dragon-in-the-same-room fights become ridiculous/outlandish?
Anyway, point is: Mobs have a cap too, therefore zones can't really just keep getting harder and harder without it reverting to an attrition fight. (they can try though)
</I>
Basically, the way the mud works would be like your AD&D campaign where your Players have unlimited level caps, but all your encounters have a cap of level 5. You can keep adding more and more level 5 monsters to the encounter, but at what point is that just ridiculous?
EQ caps are there for a reason, so player power doesn't way overbalance mob power.
Hrm. Maybe I'll put in an aggro group of 15 global tracking mobs in my next zone and see how ya all do if the tables were turned
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Savras:
Hrm. Maybe I'll put in an aggro group of 15 global tracking mobs in my next zone and see how ya all do if the tables were turned</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ok but the invoker and cleric mobs have to be afk, and they have to leave at least 3 group members back in the zone while they track you, who they will well in right before they attack.
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Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'
Hrm. Maybe I'll put in an aggro group of 15 global tracking mobs in my next zone and see how ya all do if the tables were turned
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ok but the invoker and cleric mobs have to be afk, and they have to leave at least 3 group members back in the zone while they track you, who they will well in right before they attack.
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Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashiwi:
So I know everybody's gonna hate this question... but how hard would it be to raise level caps for mobs? Is it possible at all? I'd actually love to see level caps for players raised, but the task of raising all existing zones to compensate >50 PC's would be a nightmare.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I dunno about player caps raised but I'd love to see mob caps raised to like 100.
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Shevarash responds to your petition with 'You are the wind beneath my wings.'
So I know everybody's gonna hate this question... but how hard would it be to raise level caps for mobs? Is it possible at all? I'd actually love to see level caps for players raised, but the task of raising all existing zones to compensate >50 PC's would be a nightmare.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I dunno about player caps raised but I'd love to see mob caps raised to like 100.
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Shevarash responds to your petition with 'You are the wind beneath my wings.'
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mikayla:
<B>nukie your failing on one point bro.
no matter how hard a zone in time that zone will become easier, case in point, tia, until finally it was made so impossible to do, then you remove monks from game making almost not doable at all.
hell remember how hard jot was in the beginning or brass? it is not the zones are easy it is players get better.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thats exactly the point. Since jot was put in players have received new classes, new skills, we lost the 30 second mem penalty... so many things have changed to make us more powerful. But the stats of jot eq are still relatively high. Nothing there is the best in the game, but everything is within a few hps, a little sv_Spell, a little hit/dmg from being there. The reason is that when jot went in, it was one of the toughest zones in the game, as you said. The people that are advocating downgrades are asking the imms to recognize that jot, brass, tf, etc, are no longer the toughest zones. They are asking for fairness. They want an attempt to be made to match the difficulty of the zone with the quality of the eq in it. Thats just fairness plain and simple.
And nobody is suggesting its a permanent solution. But I would suggest that every couple of years or so, it would do the mud a lot of good if the imms launched a major review of item stats and altered it accordingly. This is just simple maintenance and housekeeping that has been neglected for a long time.
Corth
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Goddamned slippery mage.
<B>nukie your failing on one point bro.
no matter how hard a zone in time that zone will become easier, case in point, tia, until finally it was made so impossible to do, then you remove monks from game making almost not doable at all.
hell remember how hard jot was in the beginning or brass? it is not the zones are easy it is players get better.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thats exactly the point. Since jot was put in players have received new classes, new skills, we lost the 30 second mem penalty... so many things have changed to make us more powerful. But the stats of jot eq are still relatively high. Nothing there is the best in the game, but everything is within a few hps, a little sv_Spell, a little hit/dmg from being there. The reason is that when jot went in, it was one of the toughest zones in the game, as you said. The people that are advocating downgrades are asking the imms to recognize that jot, brass, tf, etc, are no longer the toughest zones. They are asking for fairness. They want an attempt to be made to match the difficulty of the zone with the quality of the eq in it. Thats just fairness plain and simple.
And nobody is suggesting its a permanent solution. But I would suggest that every couple of years or so, it would do the mud a lot of good if the imms launched a major review of item stats and altered it accordingly. This is just simple maintenance and housekeeping that has been neglected for a long time.
Corth
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Goddamned slippery mage.
If level 59 is the mob level cap, then fix it! Make it so a mob can be any level! Make them do dracolich damage. Give them procs that annoy the hell out of the people who do the zone- but make the reward equal to the challenge. Then watch as people fight through the mobs, taking dozens of deaths to get their upgrades.
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-Yayaril
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-Yayaril
Yayaril,
If your really advocating making these zones more difficult, wouldn't lowering player skills be just as effective as upgrading mobs? But you were against that idea. I'm starting to think you have fallen into the trap of arguing a position just so you have something to say. BTW, are you suggesting that the easier zones such as jot be made more difficult, or the difficult zones such as bronze citadel? You don't really believe that we didnt have enough corpses in bronze citadel to justify a reward do you? And on the other hand, do you think zones like jot should be made so hard that only l33t groups can do them? Maybe you could explain what you mean cause I don't see it making any sense...
Corth
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Goddamned slippery mage.
If your really advocating making these zones more difficult, wouldn't lowering player skills be just as effective as upgrading mobs? But you were against that idea. I'm starting to think you have fallen into the trap of arguing a position just so you have something to say. BTW, are you suggesting that the easier zones such as jot be made more difficult, or the difficult zones such as bronze citadel? You don't really believe that we didnt have enough corpses in bronze citadel to justify a reward do you? And on the other hand, do you think zones like jot should be made so hard that only l33t groups can do them? Maybe you could explain what you mean cause I don't see it making any sense...
Corth
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Goddamned slippery mage.
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Ilshadrial
- Sojourner
- Posts: 417
- Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Atlanta
- Contact:
It's all about HP(s)!!!
The less HP(s) you have the easier you die, a cleric/druid/shaman walking around with 1300+ hp is just stupid, they are too powerful, they need to be more prone to death! KILL them all I say!!
Maybe, make some more feedback from casting spells... like inferno and doom, hot rosty bugs splatter all over you all!! SUFFER!
Anyway, I think the hp eq is out of hand and needs to be adjusted, there is no reason for people walking around with 1300+ hps, espeically with embodiment in the game, you have some people able to top 2000 hps, that is just silly. What we playing here? Some Diku version mud? *don't answer that*
Stike the hp eq, up the hit and dam and save eq!
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Ilshad
"Your accomplishment is nothing compared to the glory that is Ilshadrial!!" Yayaril
The less HP(s) you have the easier you die, a cleric/druid/shaman walking around with 1300+ hp is just stupid, they are too powerful, they need to be more prone to death! KILL them all I say!!
Maybe, make some more feedback from casting spells... like inferno and doom, hot rosty bugs splatter all over you all!! SUFFER!
Anyway, I think the hp eq is out of hand and needs to be adjusted, there is no reason for people walking around with 1300+ hps, espeically with embodiment in the game, you have some people able to top 2000 hps, that is just silly. What we playing here? Some Diku version mud? *don't answer that*
Stike the hp eq, up the hit and dam and save eq!
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Ilshad
"Your accomplishment is nothing compared to the glory that is Ilshadrial!!" Yayaril
After following this thread, I still find the crux of the "problem" being discussed to be poorly articulated. Or are we talking about one solution to multiple problems?
Is it:
a) The average PC is too powerful.
b) Zones that were once hard are now too easy.
c) Players are too homogeneous in what they wear.
d) Some equipment is misplaced.
e) Certain quests are too arduous for their rewards.
f) It's too easy to have a kit that is "zone worthy".
g) The MUD seems unchallenging.
h) Other.
Will downgrading EQ solve any of these problems?
a) The power of a PC can be defined many ways but is usually not related to EQ that is within the current caps. It's usually about the skill of the player, or skills obtained by the PC. One exception may be a certain item from Tiamat.
b) Imphras zoned naked. Just took longer, big deal. Also, the advent of the illusionist class has undermined the difficulty of certain classic zones. Again, it's not EQ, it's skills.
c) Most players don't know how or are unmotivated to get the best EQ for their characters. Also, the current diversity in available EQ under-represents that which is possible. Either make people learn quests, or create some different items that are reasonable alternatives.
d) This, I think, is what we are talking about. Sure, relocate some eq, but don't make the zone it came from obsolete and don't make the zone it goes to too popular. Some uber items in zones might be more appropriate as quest rewards.
e) Well, what is "worth it" is defined individually. We all quest for various reasons. Sometimes I quest for stuff I can't even use just for the enjoyment of solving the puzzle. Is that wrong? Still, relocating EQ might solve some cases of this. Just because Dartan was unimpressed with his earring doesn't mean that the quest wouldn't benefit the next guy.
f) So what? I'd rather see people zoning than doing the ship. Get out there! See the MUD in all it's glory.
g) To who? I'd rather see more challenging zones written to address this, than weakening the player base to rehash what we already know.
h) Please enlighten me.
Is it:
a) The average PC is too powerful.
b) Zones that were once hard are now too easy.
c) Players are too homogeneous in what they wear.
d) Some equipment is misplaced.
e) Certain quests are too arduous for their rewards.
f) It's too easy to have a kit that is "zone worthy".
g) The MUD seems unchallenging.
h) Other.
Will downgrading EQ solve any of these problems?
a) The power of a PC can be defined many ways but is usually not related to EQ that is within the current caps. It's usually about the skill of the player, or skills obtained by the PC. One exception may be a certain item from Tiamat.
b) Imphras zoned naked. Just took longer, big deal. Also, the advent of the illusionist class has undermined the difficulty of certain classic zones. Again, it's not EQ, it's skills.
c) Most players don't know how or are unmotivated to get the best EQ for their characters. Also, the current diversity in available EQ under-represents that which is possible. Either make people learn quests, or create some different items that are reasonable alternatives.
d) This, I think, is what we are talking about. Sure, relocate some eq, but don't make the zone it came from obsolete and don't make the zone it goes to too popular. Some uber items in zones might be more appropriate as quest rewards.
e) Well, what is "worth it" is defined individually. We all quest for various reasons. Sometimes I quest for stuff I can't even use just for the enjoyment of solving the puzzle. Is that wrong? Still, relocating EQ might solve some cases of this. Just because Dartan was unimpressed with his earring doesn't mean that the quest wouldn't benefit the next guy.
f) So what? I'd rather see people zoning than doing the ship. Get out there! See the MUD in all it's glory.
g) To who? I'd rather see more challenging zones written to address this, than weakening the player base to rehash what we already know.
h) Please enlighten me.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jhorr:
<B>Is it:
a) The average PC is too powerful.
b) Zones that were once hard are now too easy.
c) Players are too homogeneous in what they wear.
d) Some equipment is misplaced.
e) Certain quests are too arduous for their rewards.
f) It's too easy to have a kit that is "zone worthy".
g) The MUD seems unchallenging.
h) Other.
Will downgrading EQ solve any of these problems?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
a) No
b) While this is true, i dont think its a problem
c) Again its true, not so much a problem in itself as the representation of another problem.
d) Yes
e) Yes
f) No
g) No
h) the real problem:
The most powerful equipment available in certain slots is too easy to get. See letter c). The eq that already exists is very close or equal to the maximum power that is available for a single piece of eq. A good deal of this eq comes from the older zones, that are considered easier. It would be imbalancing to make equipment more powerful than these items, so there is no room left to place better items in harder zones. New zones continually come in, which are a great deal harder than the previous existing zones. These new zones have eq rewards that are inferior to the older, easier zones, or at best on par with them.
The Proposal:
Downgrade the equipment from the easiest zones that are close to or at the maximum power available for a peice of equipment. Put equipment that is better than the old equipment (after it is downgraded) into the newer, harder zones, or at the end of the long and ardous quests.
The best examples of overpowered equipment are those which are both most common and most powerful. If every single player has the same item, it cant really be that hard to get, or else not every player would have one. If an item is so easy to get that every single player has one, it should not be the most powerful item in its equipment slot.
The Counter-Argument (AKA me flaming everyone who disagrees with me):
We suck so much that we can't do the harder zones, and if you downgrade our eq we won't even be able to do the easy ones. Even though i have only done brass 2x and jot 3x, my stats and eq should be just as good as someone who has done much harder zones, and has completed long and costly quests. If you don't think thats fair, you should quit this game and never play again, unless i need a CR or help with a quest, then you can come back and help me, then re-retire. Where is the new zone located?
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Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'
<B>Is it:
a) The average PC is too powerful.
b) Zones that were once hard are now too easy.
c) Players are too homogeneous in what they wear.
d) Some equipment is misplaced.
e) Certain quests are too arduous for their rewards.
f) It's too easy to have a kit that is "zone worthy".
g) The MUD seems unchallenging.
h) Other.
Will downgrading EQ solve any of these problems?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
a) No
b) While this is true, i dont think its a problem
c) Again its true, not so much a problem in itself as the representation of another problem.
d) Yes
e) Yes
f) No
g) No
h) the real problem:
The most powerful equipment available in certain slots is too easy to get. See letter c). The eq that already exists is very close or equal to the maximum power that is available for a single piece of eq. A good deal of this eq comes from the older zones, that are considered easier. It would be imbalancing to make equipment more powerful than these items, so there is no room left to place better items in harder zones. New zones continually come in, which are a great deal harder than the previous existing zones. These new zones have eq rewards that are inferior to the older, easier zones, or at best on par with them.
The Proposal:
Downgrade the equipment from the easiest zones that are close to or at the maximum power available for a peice of equipment. Put equipment that is better than the old equipment (after it is downgraded) into the newer, harder zones, or at the end of the long and ardous quests.
The best examples of overpowered equipment are those which are both most common and most powerful. If every single player has the same item, it cant really be that hard to get, or else not every player would have one. If an item is so easy to get that every single player has one, it should not be the most powerful item in its equipment slot.
The Counter-Argument (AKA me flaming everyone who disagrees with me):
We suck so much that we can't do the harder zones, and if you downgrade our eq we won't even be able to do the easy ones. Even though i have only done brass 2x and jot 3x, my stats and eq should be just as good as someone who has done much harder zones, and has completed long and costly quests. If you don't think thats fair, you should quit this game and never play again, unless i need a CR or help with a quest, then you can come back and help me, then re-retire. Where is the new zone located?
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Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'
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Guest
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yayaril:
<B>If level 59 is the mob level cap, then fix it! Make it so a mob can be any level! Make them do dracolich damage. Give them procs that annoy the hell out of the people who do the zone- but make the reward equal to the challenge. Then watch as people fight through the mobs, taking dozens of deaths to get their upgrades.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually it's not hard to say make a level 1 rabbit that hits like a truck and has 30k HP.
Could even make him gate in demons to help real easy.
Hrrm the eq, how bout a lucky rabbits foot!
+25 Luck
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Azuth God of Wizardry and Majiks
Miax : (51) [ Im totally addicted to the mud again.. ]
<B>If level 59 is the mob level cap, then fix it! Make it so a mob can be any level! Make them do dracolich damage. Give them procs that annoy the hell out of the people who do the zone- but make the reward equal to the challenge. Then watch as people fight through the mobs, taking dozens of deaths to get their upgrades.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually it's not hard to say make a level 1 rabbit that hits like a truck and has 30k HP.
Could even make him gate in demons to help real easy.
Hrrm the eq, how bout a lucky rabbits foot!
+25 Luck
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Azuth God of Wizardry and Majiks
Miax : (51) [ Im totally addicted to the mud again.. ]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Azuth:
<B>
Actually it's not hard to say make a level 1 rabbit that hits like a truck and has 30k HP.
Could even make him gate in demons to help real easy.
Hrrm the eq, how bout a lucky rabbits foot!
+25 Luck
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'd give this bunny rabbit a vorpal proc too, just to make sure, and because all bunnies are vicious, rabid, hideous creatures with long, dripping fangs and red, demonesque eyes. Yeah, that's it.
Btw, as a solution to the flack that imms get when they downgrade stuff, just redirect all petitions that include the word "downgrade" to Thanuk so he can answer them. That solves that problem, a little keyword search in the petition code, simple!
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Ruld Ragingbear
<B>
Actually it's not hard to say make a level 1 rabbit that hits like a truck and has 30k HP.
Could even make him gate in demons to help real easy.
Hrrm the eq, how bout a lucky rabbits foot!
+25 Luck
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'd give this bunny rabbit a vorpal proc too, just to make sure, and because all bunnies are vicious, rabid, hideous creatures with long, dripping fangs and red, demonesque eyes. Yeah, that's it.
Btw, as a solution to the flack that imms get when they downgrade stuff, just redirect all petitions that include the word "downgrade" to Thanuk so he can answer them. That solves that problem, a little keyword search in the petition code, simple!
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Ruld Ragingbear
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