Where are all the goodie chanters lately?

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Corth
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Where are all the goodie chanters lately?

Postby Corth » Wed Jan 08, 2003 5:27 am

Half the time I want to make a group I end up sitting around wd... Whats going on? Image

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Postby Kifle » Wed Jan 08, 2003 7:16 am

They remembered that their class was the most annoying and time consuming to play, so they all made warriors and rogues.

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Postby Risaros » Wed Jan 08, 2003 8:58 am

We're on strike!
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Postby Malacar » Wed Jan 08, 2003 2:03 pm

*** Swears inside, apologies all around in advance ***


Because I fucking hate all the work I have to do as an enchanter. I play the game to have fun, not be annoyed to the point of insanity.

Yes, I gave up my enchanter because of all the annoyances and garbage I have to deal with as one. I took the only advice that anyone has given so far: If you don't like it, don't play it.

But you wanna know what? It's killing the mud to have that kind of response as the only one viable.

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Postby Rellanor » Wed Jan 08, 2003 2:16 pm

It's ok there are still plenty of us that like the class we will survive malacar isn't meant to be a chanter it takes a special breed to be a chanter just as it takes a special breed to be a cleric or illusionist or voker or anything of worth in this mud.

Find the class you like and embrace it
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Jan 08, 2003 2:32 pm

As much as I am an advocate of keeping things challenging so as not to detract from the rewards, perhaps there is something that should be looked at on behalf of the caster classes on the mud. The loss of experience for failed resses is just sickening for classes like enchanter. It's already bad enough to lose experience for the death, and of course there has to be some downside to dying, but every time I see a ress fail I wince... and I'd say 75% of the time it seems to be an enchanter.
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Postby Aedarton » Wed Jan 08, 2003 2:46 pm

I agree with Ashiwi.

Perhaps allowing caster classes to attempt a ress again, after 1 Mud day. If failed 2x in a row, then FAILED. This would give them better odds vs. the amount of time it takes to retrieve their lost exp %.

-Aed
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Postby Jegzed » Wed Jan 08, 2003 3:09 pm

Exp for enchanters is not the hard part.

The constant typing is the annoying and shitboring part.

Haste wanker #1, Haste wanker #2.. aaargh..




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Postby Wobb » Wed Jan 08, 2003 3:40 pm

Put haste items back in the game!


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Postby Malacar » Wed Jan 08, 2003 4:01 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rellanor:
<B>It's ok there are still plenty of us that like the class we will survive malacar isn't meant to be a chanter it takes a special breed to be a chanter just as it takes a special breed to be a cleric or illusionist or voker or anything of worth in this mud.

Find the class you like and embrace it</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the exact problem I was describing. People who just say "so don't play it". Just because you don't see a problem with it, doesn't mean it's there. It's all very well and good for you to say you like it as is and don't change anything.

You're a minority however. There are numerous problems with this, and other casting, classes.

I love the enchanter. It is my single most favorite class on the mud.

It's also the single most annoying class on the mud.

Couple that with severe carpal tunnel, and I simply can't play it. Pain + annoyance = more than any amount of joy I have playing this class.

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Postby Fripple » Wed Jan 08, 2003 5:08 pm

Just as an addition. I love the class, and felt the same as Rellanor does, once. It is a progressive erosion of enjoyment I think.

For me, the major beef IS the exp lost for doing anything not on my "agenda." I am not a power mudder for eq, so realize my agenda is to play with people I like and to learn more about the game.

Unfortunately, I cannot agree with the ress thing. What's fair is fair. I do not even think Timestop was a fair implementation, but I also do not plan to ever quest it.

The solution, I am afraid to say, is increase melee capabilities, reduce effectiveness of defensive spells (esp. stacking of them). That way, we don't have to prescale everyone for every fight. There is more to it then that, but that statement alone should push people into seeing the bigger picture.


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Postby thanuk » Wed Jan 08, 2003 6:26 pm

Few suggestions from the tank perspective, without upping defensive skills or changing anything besides the way enchanters cast.

1. Haste items - Haste items were removed because they were too powerful, but that was when melee was too powerful. Melee sucks now, haste is a bonus everyone wants but nobody actually needs. I gave up on asking for it except for like roots or something where i have to actually do damage, which is extremely rare.

2. Blur and dragonscales - What's the deal here? I remember when i started playing again i had no idea what dscale was, the best you ever got when i had played before that was stone(there were still sorcerors then). So they added dscale, which is like stone+juice, kewl. But blur as well? And now you really need both to tank anything decently? Why 2 spells? Why not make dscale a combination of scales+blur. Keep blur in as a lower level spell, but when you get dscale, just have it scale and blur someone, or something along those lines. Would cut spell casting almost in half.

3. All in 1 shot - They have greater realms of protection for clerics so they dont have to cast all the prots individually. How about a "realms" type spell for chanters that would globe, scale, blur, and haste the target? Give it a long casting time so that you cant cast it in battle, and you still have the spells as individuals as well. This would severely cut down on group spellups before fights, and if cast time is long enough, wouldn't effect the in-battle dynamic at all.

4. Exp Loss - What about if exp loss was a function of level rather than a percentage of overall exp? For example if a level 50 rogue and a level 50 chanter both die and fail ress, they both lose the same percentage of their overall experience. The actual numerical value of that experience is a great deal higher for the enchanter than the rogue. What if they lost the same numerical value of experience instead? They would still both be losing the same amount of exp, so it would be fair, but the loss would be less significant for the enchanter, who needed a great deal more experience to get to the same level as the rogue. IMHO to make a chanter lose the same % of their overall experience as a rogue, which amounts to probably nearly twice the numerical value of experience, is rather unfair. Rogues have lower exp tables AND gain exp faster from damage then the chanter does from scaling my fat ass, and in this system, they lose alot less when dying, even though it is the same percentage. Its just like taxes. The extremely rich pay a much smaller percentage of their income toward taxes than the working class, but it still amounts to the same or a greater dollar value. The only difference is that the extremely rich get some benefit to being wealthy, all enchanters get from needing more exp is a headache, in-depth knowledge of smoke plane, and CTC.

5. Give fly spell out - This has to be the most annoying thing i have seen about the long term caster changes in this game. Fly is a joke spell. Everyone has fly eq, its like the first peice of utility eq you get. Its not a game breaking thing, its just a minor annoyance. When you have 5 mages and they all sit around scratching their asses as the 1 enchanter flies the entire group, you sit there and say "what is the point?" And i really wanna know - what IS the point? What is so friggin special about fly that you need to be an enchanter to cast it? Everyone used to get fly. Why not give it to illusionists and elementalists at least, if you aren't gonna give it to invokers as well. I dunno if liches can cast fly. If they can't, they should be able to. Its just one of those things that nobody ever goes without that falls as an enchanter responsibility, and it serves no real purpose other than to make everyone wait around.

6. Dragonscales as a 9th circle spell - Whenever you have a big fight coming up, you will inevitably hear the leader say "pre-scale everyone". If you listen real close, you can almost hear the enchanter, in his house far far away, cursing the day he was born. You only get 4. They fail. That sucks. A master enchanter wouldn't fail the spell that puts dinner on his table. With memming out as an apparently accepted part of the game now, it doesn't really matter if you can only keep 4 in memory, cuz your just gonna mem out and get more. A case could be made about it being too powerful for a level 41 chanter to have, but in that case you could just give it a rediculous failure rate until it is nofail, or make the quest mob not willing to talk to you till your level 45.

Just some thoughts on how to tweak the class for playability without changing their role or increasing/decreasing their relative power very much. Again, i never played a chanter, these are just observations i have made from being on the receiving end of all their spells. Chanters are a warrior's best friend, so i want their lives to be as easy as possible. Any comments/suggestions from actual enchanters about these ideas would be greatly appreciated.


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Postby Rokub » Wed Jan 08, 2003 6:39 pm

I do agree that enchanters are a pain in the butt to play for the fact that your constantly typeing and working. They are a super class to twink mobs with though I will tell u that.
Goodies really need necromancers/liches in your group.
The evil enchanters do half the work yall do. I'm not kidding, when you have a necro/lich in your group your not casting globe your not casting haste. It lessens it a ton. Your missing out what can I say.
If enchanter is your main class and you zone and play a lot you will never have a experience problem unless you spank everytime you zone :P

Rokub

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Postby Iktar » Wed Jan 08, 2003 6:54 pm

Additional few additional idea along to nuk's that can help enchanter:

1) Increase duration of elemental ward to be equal or greater than globe. This would relieve chanter globing tanks as well as ward protecting tank's stone/dscale being from eaten up. Since majority of zone group takes at least one elementalist for support role. Take fibble coz he rules and carries gnome tinker machine in his backpack!

2) The subject of many threads. Increase duration of haste.
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Postby Fripple » Wed Jan 08, 2003 10:36 pm

Rokub,

I agree, but until they let me multiplay - there are not a lot of options for goodie necs/liches. And there are only so many people patient enough to play the chanter/nec style of character. You are going to split that group in half at best with leaving things as is.

Thanuk - omg. Good comments ... you sure you don't have a chanter?

I really liked the DSCALES is Dscale+Blur suggestion. But I also think Melee in general should get serious working.


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Postby Selias » Wed Jan 08, 2003 10:38 pm

RE: Thanuk

I asked that the fly spell be given to other mage classes and I was shot down, basically because most chars have fly gear, fly is an enchantment spell, and that no other class needs it if enchanters have it.

As for the all in 1 shot spell, I'd love it! And I wouldn't care if it had a horrendous casting time, b/c timestop would make it insta cast.

In short, enchanters rock... they're just a pain in the ass to play. Basically only the hardcore enchanter players ever get an enchanter high enuf to scale b/c the xp is horrendous. We then get bored of teh class, roll and alt and play them. Since enchanter xp is harder than other classes, almost no one wants to play an enchanter seriously so no new blood flows into the class. That might be why there is a lack of enchanters these days.
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Postby Sylvos » Wed Jan 08, 2003 10:57 pm

I REALLY like the all in one spell, though I think the contents might be a bit much. What about instead:

Globe/Haste/Blur/Strength/Dexterity

Including scale in it makes it too strong, while adding stone into it means you'd want to scale people beforehand, then cast the spell. The Strength and Dexterity are just a bit of extra gravy to round the spell out - meshing the globe, haste and blur would really cut the casting down.

And yes, re-instate haste-items Image

Sylvos
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Postby Marforp » Thu Jan 09, 2003 12:31 am

Yeah, yeah Thanuk had good ideas, but seems like the best idea that could be implemented on other classes is being ignored. Allowing people to quest for spell X (dragonscales) upon achieving level 46 as normal, but having it be a 9th circle spell! By enforcing it on the quest mob this would be easy to implement and take care of crowded circles for numerous classes.

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Postby Corth » Thu Jan 09, 2003 3:21 am

I just sat around for 45 minutes constantly typing 'who' to see if any high level chanters had come on. i dont care about the reasons.. i just want people to roll chanters please Image

Corth

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Postby Malacar » Thu Jan 09, 2003 4:01 am

Go roll one and feel my pain. :P

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Postby Corth » Thu Jan 09, 2003 4:28 am

gonna add shamans to the list. there are hardly any goddamned shamans too. stop rolling rogues and rangers you wankers.. we need shamans and enchanters.

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Postby Ambar » Thu Jan 09, 2003 5:34 am

i love enchanters and, well ....

i love enchanters
they dont need fixed

just gotta love them to play one

never noticed any hard xp either (course i levelled an ogre shamam before the chanter...)


yeah my chanter just a baby ... lvl 48 ... have scaled for every zone so far cept tiapet ...

i love enchanters ... i love to stay busy ... i'm one of those chanters who doesnt mind scaling/blurring/globing/hasting all (well yeah i forget to haste cause it doesnt appear on glances...*hint*)

have i mentioned that i love chanters??

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Postby Corth » Thu Jan 09, 2003 5:42 am

any chance i can bribe you into rolling a goodie chanter then? Image Ill pay cold hard cash.. umm, sexual favors.. anything!

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Postby thanuk » Thu Jan 09, 2003 5:59 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sylvos:
<B>I REALLY like the all in one spell, though I think the contents might be a bit much. What about instead:

Globe/Haste/Blur/Strength/Dexterity

Including scale in it makes it too strong, while adding stone into it means you'd want to scale people beforehand, then cast the spell. The Strength and Dexterity are just a bit of extra gravy to round the spell out - meshing the globe, haste and blur would really cut the casting down.

And yes, re-instate haste-items Image

Sylvos</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see what your saying. The whole point of the spell is to cut down on pre-fight spellup time and typing. So basically one spell with a duration of like moonwell to cast to fully spell up 1 character is what i was going for. With time stop you cast it instantly, but once fighting if you start casting when the mob is first engaged you still probably wont finish before the tank dies. I could see how dscale could be too much, but since it would only have 1 real purpose or feasible use, why not throw it in. Could even put this in the same circle as scales so you would use this spell to spellup and then just mem dscales after for the actual fight.


Ambar - I dont really think they need to be "fixed" either. They are a well rounded class, the only problem is that they have more than half the spellup requirements of the group. I think lowering just the actual number of spells cast would add to their playability. If you could turn

c 'dragonscale' thanuk
c 'blur' thanuk
c 'globe' thanuk
c 'haste' thanuk
into just 1 spell, times 5 people, thats 15 spellcasts you didnt have to type, and thats just 1 spellup. Just seems the tediousness is a really annoying byproduct of the class and this would be a good way to eliminate that tediousness, without making the chanter too much stronger or weaker.

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Thanuk Pantherclaw

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[This message has been edited by thanuk (edited 01-09-2003).]
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Postby Dalar » Thu Jan 09, 2003 6:00 am

that's why i LOVE playing evilrace. i can just list awesome ghealers and enchanters and i've only grouped w/ them a couple of times.

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Postby Myre » Thu Jan 09, 2003 1:05 pm

WORKING ON IT!

okay sorry for caps heh but hey i'm up to level 28...another 18 levels and i'll be useful...
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Postby old depok » Thu Jan 09, 2003 1:22 pm

Working on a necro.

Not that replacing a shaman with a necro is the ideal solution but its better than me playing my level 41 Rogue!

Even grouped with Myre's chanter.
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Postby Malacar » Thu Jan 09, 2003 3:30 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalar:
<B>that's why i LOVE playing evilrace. i can just list awesome ghealers and enchanters and i've only grouped w/ them a couple of times.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So go play evilrace. Getting tired of hearing this over and over. Not dissing evils, as I don't doubt it, but it's almost like throwing it in the face of every goodie on the mud, and that is just rude.

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Postby Ambar » Thu Jan 09, 2003 4:55 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalar:
<B>that's why i LOVE playing evilrace. i can just list awesome ghealers and enchanters and i've only grouped w/ them a couple of times.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
aww dartan loves me Image cause i am both of those!!!(snicker i know im a noob:P)


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Postby Xisiqomelir » Thu Jan 09, 2003 5:53 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ambar:
<B>
aww dartan loves me Image cause i am both of those!!!(snicker i know im a noob:P)


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dartan posted a DDR flash, and he likes Dinobots, so you know he has rock-solid credentials.

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Postby Nedle2 » Thu Jan 09, 2003 8:17 pm

people still cast globes? para >> globe

plus nothing more entertaining then watching the rogue or ranger kill himself on a shielded paraed mob....

nedle the halfling chanter

[This message has been edited by Nedle2 (edited 01-09-2003).]
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Postby Kifle » Thu Jan 09, 2003 8:49 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>gonna add shamans to the list. there are hardly any goddamned shamans too. stop rolling rogues and rangers you wankers.. we need shamans and enchanters.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bleh, just because I haven't quested vit yet doesn't mean I am not a shaman!

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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Jan 09, 2003 9:06 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
stop rolling rogues and rangers you wankers.. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, you wankers, there's enough rogues already.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Jan 10, 2003 12:00 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Malacar:
<B> So go play evilrace. Getting tired of hearing this over and over. Not dissing evils, as I don't doubt it, but it's almost like throwing it in the face of every goodie on the mud, and that is just rude.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

sorry, i should have added the word "active" or "plays alot". there are good enchanters on the goodie side but i don't see them on as much as say ssissiv, telina etc.

[This message has been edited by Dalar (edited 01-09-2003).]
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Postby sok » Fri Jan 10, 2003 2:02 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>any chance i can bribe you into rolling a goodie warrior then? Image Ill pay cold hard cash.. umm, sexual favors.. anything!

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i expect to be plvl. i will come looking
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Postby loshaenar » Sat Jan 11, 2003 11:53 am

hmmm... ok.. a thread thats a lil relevant..

gonna put in a few thoughts here to both corth and BigT.. i've been playing sorc' or chanter now for many years..under different guises (good and evil) and even tho i still play loshe whenever i can, there are times when the prospect of logging a chanter in makes my skin crawl..love the class, with all it's faults and independence etc. however it seems that, as mentioned in other posts, its all about questing and zoning for alot of folks..and given that if u log on in prime time, zone groups generally won't take more than 1 chanter, if 4 or more are on...no zone.. if, like nukkie (and myself) the concept of roaming aimlessly thru ansi to find that 1 in 50 rareload stinkbeetle b4 u can progress - seems boring ?? well then..u can always sit 3w and wait for chodaboy to demand help with his search for said stinkbeetle.. anyone else lost ?

on the other hand, i live in sydney and the resulting times often don't match up except to clair romantic liasons and pull out bizarre foreign films etc..

rolled all the other classes, played the majority thru to 40ish..and i still play chanter..would i encourage others to do so ??
no..bugger off and find your own couch and stop eating my chips Image

make sense ??

on topic...yes i hate casting endless bullshit spellups and then watching them drop for whatever reasons..yes i am sure RSI will rule my world in the years to come as a result.. yes i like the idea of the all in 1, but i'm sure someone will have cramps over it..so maybe we can fix everything by giving us chanters !fail bash too!!

corth i hope u find your missing chanters..

bigT i hope u recover that stash of missing pronos!!

everyone else.. lets hit CC at 11 tomorrowish with 10 warriors me and a druid :P tis a good day to die.

loshe

[This message has been edited by loshaenar (edited 01-11-2003).]
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Postby ShaylaRose » Sat Jan 11, 2003 9:56 pm

I like enchanters the way they are, actually, as it is a challenging class to play but a rewarding one.

For some strange reason, though, it seems to be all or nothing. Either I log on as Aloura and see 6 level 46-50 goodie enchanters on and know Aedyra won't be needed or I see maybe 1 and know I'll be asked to switch. (Which I almost never mind doing)

I have also noticed a bunch in the 40-45 range on the rise, so I expect there won't be that much of need soon. If anything, maybe there will be too many. Image As Losh (hiya and hugs!) says, half the time it seems zoning groups don't bother brining more than 1 of us.

Your friendly enchantress and druidess...

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Sojourner
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Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Treladian » Mon Jan 13, 2003 4:58 pm

"For some strange reason, though, it seems to be all or nothing. Either I log on as Aloura and see 6 level 46-50 goodie enchanters on and know Aedyra won't be needed or I see maybe 1 and know I'll be asked to switch. (Which I almost never mind doing)"

Wait a minute . . . you mean you people aren't planning that? I thought the enchanter union just held strikes every two nights out of three . . .

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You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.

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