whining follows

Archive of the Sojourn3 Gameplay Discussion Forum.
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

whining follows

Postby moritheil » Thu Jan 16, 2003 4:35 pm

I'd like to ask something.

Why have zones been upped in difficulty recently?

I'm going to take the concrete example of beholders. This used to be a zone you could do straight up for all the items, or if you only cared about one item, you could use skill and timing to avoid some fights.

Now, however, with certain changes, it's almost like imms want to force players to do all the fights. With the beholder procs as they are, this basically leads to guaranteed death for a portion of the group, at least.

So this has gone from being a zone that the experienced knew could be done two ways, to being a zone that involves mindlessly throwing the lives of your teammates at nobash casting proccing mobs.

I'm wondering if this is a policy decision or just supposed to be a fix.

------------------
Toarn group-says 'my lvl 50 buffer has officially been Mori-fied.'
Shevarash tells you 'you want to mud marry me? *scratch*'
Ilshadrial
Sojourner
Posts: 417
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Atlanta
Contact:

Postby Ilshadrial » Thu Jan 16, 2003 5:15 pm

Beholders are something to be feared, no one just didn't have time to make them as should be until recently. Image

------------------
Ilshad

"Your accomplishment is nothing compared to the glory that is Ilshadrial!!" Yayaril
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Thu Jan 16, 2003 5:30 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>Beholders are something to be feared, no one just didn't have time to make them as should be until recently. Image

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't mind the proc, it's kinda fun. Esp. since caster natural saves vs. 10th eye are better than melee saves, and we wind up seeing who lives and who dies.

What I mind is the removal of strategy from the zone.

------------------
Toarn group-says 'my lvl 50 buffer has officially been Mori-fied.'
Shevarash tells you 'you want to mud marry me? *scratch*'
Nokie
Sojourner
Posts: 786
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Contact:

Postby Nokie » Thu Jan 16, 2003 5:39 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
What I mind is the removal of strategy from the zone.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some would argue that it's been a growing trend to remove all strategy from most aspects of the mud and everything is being dumbed-down into the same task: mindlessly throwing bodies until the mob is dead. Anything else is labeled as 'twinking' or 'bug abuse'

This is what I've been hearing a lot of the past 5 months or so, mind you.

------------------
Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers
Baikalisan
Sojourner
Posts: 314
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2001 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby Baikalisan » Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:05 pm

I've always had the most fun in zones where there are 2-5 people in group, in a zone meant for 10+ people and if enough thought and planning goes into it we'd win and get what we went in for.

Dk vault for example, did that once with me 2 invokers and an enchanter, i tanked.

it was insane fun in what is normally an over powered boring group..

as for the changes to zones... sometimes it has to get worse before it can get better.. bear with em... eventually their evil plots shall be revealed!



------------------
Baikalisan Terrorforge- Valsharess Elg'Caress - Orbdrin D'oloth

Ellana tells you 'i WISH he was the energizer bunny. all i'd need to do is take out the batteries and duckpond him'
Malacar
Sojourner
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby Malacar » Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:18 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Nokie:
<B> Some would argue that it's been a growing trend to remove all strategy from most aspects of the mud and everything is being dumbed-down into the same task: mindlessly throwing bodies until the mob is dead. Anything else is labeled as 'twinking' or 'bug abuse'

This is what I've been hearing a lot of the past 5 months or so, mind you.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me too, Nokie... Me too. It's sad. There used to be so much variety, but now it's all come down to a 'vision' of how it should be.

Call it griping, call it whining.. It is.

------------------
Malacar - omg ymir!
Tanji ASSOC:: 'god was blueballed the night before he made Thanuk'
Rokub
Sojourner
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Jefferson, LA USA

Postby Rokub » Thu Jan 16, 2003 7:43 pm

This needed to be done to the section of the beholders at the 1k headband especially. We were twinking that stuff every single day for awhile, with 2-3 people. It was way to easy you could do all kinds of stuff to get past the guards to get to the last monster. The best headband that most casters can wear, should not be some easy thing people can do while they are bored. It should be hard to get.

Now questing it for rockcrusher can be a bit contriversal but, its a proc weapon, you should have to go through some hard stuff to get it.


Rokub

------------------
Malacar says 'And Isma wonders why he is universally hated.'

Ssissu group-says 'I think some goodies just complain to complain'

Ssissu group-says 'it's like a ranger complex'
Savras
Staff Member - Areas
Posts: 298
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 5:01 am

Postby Savras » Fri Jan 17, 2003 1:24 am

This isn't an 'official' Soj3 reply or anything, just an opinion.

The reason that we try to force you guys to do certain fights is because those fights are designed to be challenging and maybe require some teamwork and risk to survive cleanly. What was (and is) happening a lot is one person sneaks all the way through the zone, then summons/folds and the group smites one mob and its over.

When we design an item, we take into consideration (or try to) the difficulty of getting that item via whatever route we want to use. Whether that be quest or combat or combination. When we see a group of 3 people sneak through and smite one mob, then the reward is out of proportion to the difficulty.

The choice is whether to force you guys to do some of the fights to make the item worthwhile, or downgrade the item. And everyone hates downgrades. Your choice.

PS: before you get your panties in a bunch, a group of 3 ppl twinking an item once or twice with great risk is cool and commendable, so thats not what I'm talking about. The item being twinked this way every boot with little risk is the problem.

re malacar: Yea, in theory there used to be a lot of variety, but come on.. 99% of the time the same tactic is used to cheese the same fight. (And not singling you out here, you just had the most succinct argument)
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Postby Corth » Fri Jan 17, 2003 1:31 am

Savras:

You make some excellent points. The one thing, however, that I would add, and I hope that the staff takes into account, is sometimes avoiding a fight can involve skill as well. This was the case with the beholders. The area was a lot more *fun* when it was more about guile then it was about throwing bodies at those crazy procs. The ironic thing was that the stats on the headband could have been reduced to bring it in line with the difficult of obtaining it, rather than making the fight harder (and less fun) to justify the item. That would have also freed up some room for you area wanks to put nifty head gear in your suitably difficult zones.

Corth

------------------
Goddamned slippery mage.
Malacar
Sojourner
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby Malacar » Fri Jan 17, 2003 1:35 am

Yeah Corth, agree. I didn't take it personally, Savras, no worries. Image

There is more to a challenge than a dreadfully hard fight.

Fun has to factor in somewhere here, and I've noticed lately, the fun factor is declining, while the difficulty is being raised. It used to be a relatively happy medium.

But also, I would like to point out that you are, in effect, punishing the majority for what the minority can do.

As with all 'twinking' (which I heavily disagree with that use here, but I digress...), people will get bored with it. That's inevitable.

What really gets me is the nasty way some of these 'anti-twink' changes come off. It's like some gods take it personally that some players use their heads instead of their blood and body, to attain a goal. I can't fathom that, because I think using your head and NOT fighting can ofttimes be more of a reward than dying 40x.

Just my 2 copper.

------------------
Malacar - omg ymir!
Tanji ASSOC:: 'god was blueballed the night before he made Thanuk'
Salen
Sojourner
Posts: 771
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Salen » Fri Jan 17, 2003 4:46 am

Is this the part where I mention that the 'Anti-Twinking' of zones does nothing but reward the people who were the cause of the change?


If I have 4 or 5 1K Eyes in a bag and it is made more rare/tougher to get, guess what, mine are worth more now.(Find an Econ major to explain it to you)

The only thing worse is taking the opportunity to get an item away from the players totally.

------------------
emote Rescuepractice
Gort
Sojourner
Posts: 919
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Ft. Collins, CO

Postby Gort » Fri Jan 17, 2003 9:46 am

I'm somewhat concerned when Nokie get's disenchanted.... never seen this before.


I do however, see some rationales to the "upgrading" of said beholders.

I'll just stick to group healing, and keep my dumb shaman mouth shut...


Toplack *the oft not so smart shaman* Frostbear


------------------
Savras
Staff Member - Areas
Posts: 298
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 5:01 am

Postby Savras » Fri Jan 17, 2003 2:29 pm

Corth:

Yea, I admit in some cases where theres enough variability in the encounter to provide a wide range of possibilities, part of the fun can be the evasion rather than the encounter. The problem lies, however, once theres one particular way of doing something, and it becomes commonplace, then its not really a lot of skill to avoid the combat. I might disagree with some of the zone upgrades since I feel they have enough variability in them, but the fact that certain people have multiple headbands which they managed to get in a 2 or 3 person group tells me the encounter is broken.

Malacar:

Yes, it can be seen as a punishment for many for the sins of the few, but most of these instances involve one or two people sneaking past the fights and/or doing the luring, then the rest of the group just running in (ie Corth and his sneak booties). So really, I see it not so much as punishing the rest, but actually giving them something to do to acquire the item rather than waiting, welling in, and killing one mob.

Using beholders as an example, since the new procs and stuff have gone in, the number of logs, posts etc about them have increased dramatically. Even the "hey, look at me get smited in one round by the 10th eye" logs mean that the person had some kinda fun in doing that fight, or they learned to fear it. Either way is better than no reaction at all.

Salen:

Yea, its bad that you have 4 or 5 1k eyes in your bag, but its worse if everyone has 4 or 5 1k eyes in their bag. And yes, they're more valuable now, but the fact that you have so many in your bag means that theres still 4 or 5 that are technically in the game, but out of circulation, which is just as good.

So... as builders, the choices we have when faced with a situation such as the beholders is:

1. downgrade the headband, resulting in MUCH hair pulling and gnashing of teeth, and possibly causing Daz to quit again or...

2. upgrade the fight, resulting in complaints by the few who abused the system to begin with. (there, didn't use the t-word, happy? Image Hey, I didn't use the t-word this whole post! go me!)
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Fri Jan 17, 2003 4:37 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Savras:
<B>1. downgrade the headband, resulting in MUCH hair pulling and gnashing of teeth, and possibly causing Daz to quit again or...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Daz should read this. He would feel loved Image

Savras, I don't question making the zone harder - I question making it harder in a mindless way. Couldn't it have been made harder in a way that retained the appeal of the zone (sneaking around, using timing and trickery)?

------------------
Toarn group-says 'my lvl 50 buffer has officially been Mori-fied.'
Shevarash tells you 'you want to mud marry me? *scratch*'
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Postby Corth » Fri Jan 17, 2003 8:35 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Savras:
<B>
1. downgrade the headband, resulting in MUCH hair pulling and gnashing of teeth, and possibly causing Daz to quit again or...

2. upgrade the fight, resulting in complaints by the few who abused the system to begin with. (there, didn't use the t-word, happy? Image Hey, I didn't use the t-word this whole post! go me!)</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You wouldn't catch any flack from the players. We reflexively blame everything we don't like on kia. Doesn't really matter if he was actually involved or not. Image

Corth

------------------
Goddamned slippery mage.
Salen
Sojourner
Posts: 771
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Salen » Sun Jan 19, 2003 6:10 am

How is it worse that everyone has one (or more)? That is the eventuality of the game.

With no (few) new players, eventually everyone will have one, by making those types of changes, you simply make them 'pay' more to get it from the person who stockpiled them (rewarding the eq-farmers). This reinforces the 'look for the new stockpile item so you have a bunch when the fight gets changed again' that a large portion of the players (and Admin it seems) hates about the game.

So, in effect, you are creating a situation where people WANT to do the very things you are fighting to stop.

OMFG I just used the legalize drugs rhetoric, and it makes perfect sense. I need to go now, I feel dirty.

*looks up the number for Ultra-Conservatives 'R' Us*


------------------
emote Rescuepractice
Savras
Staff Member - Areas
Posts: 298
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 5:01 am

Postby Savras » Mon Jan 20, 2003 2:04 am

Thats like saying "Well, everyone is going to die anyway, why not just kill yourself now." heh heh

And your logic is flawed anyway, by making the fight more difficult, the quantity of them entering the game is decreased, which means that not everyone will have one. If that means that a few people have a couple extra, then so be it, but its better than having everyone with one. As for people looking for the 'next easy thing before it gets changed'.. hey, thats life. Its your perogative to try and find that item... but theres an equal chance of us increasing the difficulty of the fight and thereby making your items more valuable as there is for us to downgrade them and make your effort worthless.

Our goal is not to stop people from stockpiling eq, the goal is to try and promote some eq diversity which is unbalanced when one particular item is much easier to get than others in the same slot with similar stats. So, if you have 20 1k headbands in your bag, you can only wear one at a time so that means 19 are out of the game Image
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Postby Corth » Mon Jan 20, 2003 2:11 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Savras:
<B>
Our goal is not to stop people from stockpiling eq, the goal is to try and promote some eq diversity which is unbalanced when one particular item is much easier to get than others in the same slot with similar stats. So, if you have 20 1k headbands in your bag, you can only wear one at a time so that means 19 are out of the game Image </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

you promote eq diversity by giving real choices between types of eq. The same amount of headbands are going to come into the game whether its a difficult fight or a hard fight. Its still by far the best head item for a significant percentage of players on this mud. Thats enough to justify almost any fight. People will do that fight for the same reason people do the demi-lich fight in MD. If you downgrade that headband you get to create some real eq diversity because its not the one and only best item. Further benefit is that you aren't forced to ruin the fun of that area to justify the reward you get.

Corth

------------------
Goddamned slippery mage.

[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 01-19-2003).]
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Mon Jan 20, 2003 2:20 am

Wasn't the 1K headband just too easy to get for what it was? And shouldn't beholders have been made more difficult and frightening just for being what they were supposed to be? The two factors seem to compliment each other for the changes that were made.
Tasan
Sojourner
Posts: 1710
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Fridley, Mn USA
Contact:

Postby Tasan » Mon Jan 20, 2003 2:48 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashiwi:
Wasn't the 1K headband just too easy to get for what it was? And shouldn't beholders have been made more difficult and frightening just for being what they were supposed to be? The two factors seem to compliment each other for the changes that were made.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

However, these changes affected the beholder RACE, and there aren't just beholders in those mines.

Area makers who used beholders before weren't aware procs would be added to them later.

Just a thing to think on.

Twinshadow

------------------
Kribble tells you 'everytime I've seen you die it was doing something cool or trying to save someone's ass... die away!'
sok
Sojourner
Posts: 1578
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 5:01 am
Location: santa ana, ca, usa
Contact:

Postby sok » Mon Jan 20, 2003 10:17 pm

as much as i like to twink the headband, i agree it was too easy for what it was worth. sense life and 25 hp? wow!
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Mon Jan 27, 2003 10:31 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashiwi:
Wasn't the 1K headband just too easy to get for what it was? And shouldn't beholders have been made more difficult and frightening just for being what they were supposed to be? The two factors seem to compliment each other for the changes that were made.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"I don't mind the proc, it's kinda fun. Esp. since caster natural saves vs. 10th eye are better than melee saves, and we wind up seeing who lives and who dies.

What I mind is the removal of strategy from the zone."



------------------
Toarn group-says 'my lvl 50 buffer has officially been Mori-fied.'
Shevarash tells you 'you want to mud marry me? *scratch*'

Return to “S3 Gameplay Discussion Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests