Human int

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moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Sat Apr 19, 2003 10:49 pm

Vahok wrote:I feel liches should get a wee bit better mem times and/or hps than regular human casters. C'mon, these are the lords of the undead, not some zombie!
True, liches already get some pretty sweet advantages, but they should. And I'm not talking about the fastest mem times mind you...but if trolls and ogres are close to them, I personally see a problem with that...


Mori wrote:Perhaps additional maxint notches should be available to liches, who are no longer 'merely human'. This likely was in effect back when liches were a new race.


Yup, I'm for it too. Line up more support! =)
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Covar
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Postby Covar » Wed Jul 23, 2003 4:27 am

i think, human should have another subrace that are intelligence.
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Postby Kribble » Wed Jul 23, 2003 3:23 pm

Humans should not get better mem times.

Status quo, maybe I could see the argument, but consider the upcoming EQ downgrades. If most caster eq is going to lose hitpoint, then base hit point (hitpoint while naked) are going to make up a greater percentage of total points. Therefor, with upcoming downgrades, humans (and barbs) 'win', as base hitpoints become more valuable.

Suggesting a human upgrade considering this seems unsubstantiated.

Just mah thoughts.
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oteb
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Postby oteb » Wed Jul 23, 2003 7:33 pm

gnomish casters have same base hp as humans plus they get infra decent agility and awesome int. humans are good for pallies only (not that pallies are good for anything but still)
amolol
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Postby amolol » Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:46 pm

ok first of all ITS 10 FREAKIN SECONDS

second rygetting some max int gear that may help also humans are the base line there exact middle they are not 3rd worst in int its actually ogre troll duegar/dwarf humans halflings grey/gnome


that said DEAL WITH IT you rolled it your problem
i dont know what your problem is, but i bet its hard to pronounce

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Mitharx
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Postby Mitharx » Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:26 pm

Human mem times are really okay. Even for lichs with our huge amount of spells. I wear a fair amount of +max_int eq and still have descent hps (at least I did before they change the eq, we'll see).

Amolol, the people posting here know a thing or two about the game. You don't need to tell them about things like +max_int eq when oteb has a pile of eq that would put yours, mine, and several other people to shame. Not to mention, he's a great player.

That being said, there is no need to act indignant. The people posting here know zones and why mem times are important. They also know when hps are more important than mem times. 10 seconds doesn't seem like much and I really think it isn't, but then I wear a ton of max_int eq, so it all depends when you're in a zone.

Your response of you rolled it so deal with it is insufficient. If we assumed everything was good the way it is because that's the way it is now then nothing would ever change. Going around yelling at people who make suggestions that in no way affect you is pointless. The people posting here know a thing about mages. I think things are fine the way they are but perhaps the gods decide that some people are right and human mem times are lowered. This post and this idea served a purpose. That's the point of these forums and the best way to discuss your disagreements with people here is in a civil way (see kribble above). Don't just start laying into people's ideas or opinions or you start a pointless flame war everytime you say something.
Burpie
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Postby Burpie » Tue Aug 12, 2003 4:05 pm

I'm a bit naive so I have a different perspective altogether. It seems to me that a lich, by definition, has basically done nothing but study/manipulate the undead it's whole life, and afterlife. In doing so, I'd only assume that they are vastly superior in the rudamentary magics thereof. That said, relatively, they would be quite wiser (int tho :P ) than a standard human. When I was reading up on liches in the Baldur's Gate PC series, the Lich is basically a god, let alone demi-lich for it's intelligence, etc. I do not see a problem with notching their memtimes to that of a gnome at worst, upon lichdom. Also (for example) comparing an invoker saying that they do nothing but cast fireballs all day so they should mem faster isn't valid, due to the fact that liches have spent indefinite lifetimes perfecting the abuse of corpses. Just my 2 cents.
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Postby Gyrx » Tue Aug 12, 2003 7:35 pm

Burpie wrote:I'm a bit naive so I have a different perspective altogether. It seems to me that a lich, by definition, has basically done nothing but study/manipulate the undead it's whole life, and afterlife. In doing so, I'd only assume that they are vastly superior in the rudamentary magics thereof. That said, relatively, they would be quite wiser (int tho :P ) than a standard human. When I was reading up on liches in the Baldur's Gate PC series, the Lich is basically a god, let alone demi-lich for it's intelligence, etc. I do not see a problem with notching their memtimes to that of a gnome at worst, upon lichdom. Also (for example) comparing an invoker saying that they do nothing but cast fireballs all day so they should mem faster isn't valid, due to the fact that liches have spent indefinite lifetimes perfecting the abuse of corpses. Just my 2 cents.


Sure, upgrade their mem times, but remove the extra spell slots.

I view those extra spell slots as the benefit for them spending those indefinite lifetimes doing what they love to do.
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Postby omrec » Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:48 pm

Human mem times aren't that bad, if you're at 120 int.

I gladly sacrifice hps for max_int, hps are overrated anyway.

Only zone memming reeeaaally sucks in is spob..:P

I knew ahead of time that I would be gaining extra mem time in order not to have some silly gnome name. So the relationship between mem times of various races is fine, imo. Different races are best for different classes. That is well understood. Humans don't make the best mages. Hell, humans don't make the best _anything_, they're just OK at everything. That's how it was meant to be. Of course, there could be _some_ bonus associated with humans, like learning skills faster or something...:)

Maybe someone should make a thread about speeding up mem times in general. But then you get the problem of making it even faster to mem out of combat. Good for exp, but might make some zones easier (and we know they're all too easy already).

Or maybe a thread about adding something extra to humans to make up for their averageness. But upgrading their mem times? nah.

-Om
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Thu Aug 14, 2003 9:38 pm

Humans already DO have a bunch of unique abilities.

1) they start out in the most connected, most profitable, and most populous town on the mud. Help is generally easier to find, and you are already at the hub of grouping and marketing for all of the goodie realm.

2) you can be a couple of different classes, namely paladin/anti-paladin that are only available to humans. Previously this list was a bit larger, but assassin was removed, er, perhaps BLENDED is a better word, into the rogue class.

3) you can be any class you want (any available to the goodie races that is).

Yes, it is true that you don't get incredible stats, and that you lack innates, but realistically, there are more humans in the faerun than any other race! The fact that there are as many demi-humans as there are says something in itself! I say leave humans as they are.
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Postby Stamm » Fri Aug 15, 2003 4:41 am

Since there's so few players pick human then it needs an upgrade.

Oh, no, wait... 22/60 goodies are human :)
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Postby Mitharx » Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:12 am

I'm not unsympathetic to your "Lichs have spent more than a life time learning magic so they should have shorter mem times" but this is the same style of argument that was brought up with my lichs should have relo argument. I do think it's a valid D&D argument and I do think that's it's true BUT we can't make lichs like gods when it comes to the game because they are a player class. You could say they've quested to become how they are and so should recieve more benefits, but then so have the other human classes (like dragonscales and ferno and even the avenger sword). The problem with lichs are magic studying manaics is that it's a catchall and could lead to situations in which the class is just too powerful to be played. Even if we did assume that they're amazing with magic due to great studies, there is the possibilities that necromatic spells are so complex and powerful (with lich spells I mean) that they required more time to mem and this is the balance out. the fact that we get more spells doesn't seem to be to be a good reason to get worse mem times than others, but the fact that we can't find a good basis to say humans should get better mem times because other races do, does.
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Postby Salen » Fri Aug 15, 2003 9:43 pm

So....
I guess that is a no for letting humans have multiple +max notches if they want to wear the eq then?

101con is easy. so +50hp
107con is possible, so +100hp
113con might happen, so +150hp
119con? could be with perfect gear, so +200hp
Given that, human fighters could almost get dwarf/barb hp, but would be giving up a ton in eq effect to do it.

106int easy so, - 1/2 sec mem
112int easy so, -1sec mem
118int not so easy, but -1 1/2 sec mem
124 prolly possible, but insanely hard -2sec mem
Given those, the mage is giving up sleeves, about body for sure to get mem times down a significant amount. The effect on hit points would more than make up for that.

For clerics, think mage table, but the 118 is probably the insanely hard level if possible.

As for +agi/dex, I'm not aware of much in the game so you could get 1 notch, maybe 2. Neither of those would make up for human vs. halfling, but it would make them an option.

While making eq to fix racial inadequacies is not normally a good idea, changing racial abilities to allow for wide use of existing eq might be.
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:48 pm

Covar wrote:i think, human should have another subrace that are intelligence.


Situational irony, I think.

Mitharx's post is very well thought out. I'm impressed.

But beyond all this, I'm surprised that this thread is still kicking around.
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Postby Dalar » Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:12 pm

humans suck. they need max notches to get to other races' stats and they have no natural sv spell, meaning they always get hit by para. right now mobs always prism so being human sucks hardcore
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby old depok » Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:16 pm

omrec wrote:Human mem times aren't that bad, if you're at 120 int.

I gladly sacrifice hps for max_int, hps are overrated anyway.

Only zone memming reeeaaally sucks in is spob..:P

I knew ahead of time that I would be gaining extra mem time in order not to have some silly gnome name.

-Om


And you picked omrec instead?

JK

As for Liches being faster because they have studied the undead for so long I just think of it this way:

The spells they cast (or the way that they have to cast them) is different than for other mages (for whatever Reason) and thus, while they are more intelligent (thus the ability to learn more spells) the trade off is the longer way to cast them.

I would assume that animating a corpse would take longer than casting minute meteor.
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Postby Dalar » Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:24 pm

i don't know if that holds true in D&D. In soj3, a yuan-ti lich is smarter than a human lich. I just find that kinda weird because lich should be a race not a class.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:34 pm

Maybe the whole lich/int thing is based off the "evil super-genius" model. They're smart enough to work the equations which will allow them to change water to iron, but not smart enough to step out from under the falling anvil.
Dalar
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Postby Dalar » Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:54 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Maybe the whole lich/int thing is based off the "evil super-genius" model. They're smart enough to work the equations which will allow them to change water to iron, but not smart enough to step out from under the falling anvil.


wow wile e coyote made iron from water? i never saw that episode
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
Treladian
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Postby Treladian » Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:24 pm

Something to keep in mind is that sentient ancient undead are extremely intelligent because they're ancient, not just because they're undead. A lich or vampire that's been alive for hundreds of years will have accumulated much knowledge in that time but being a walking corpse for a few months isn't going to make you any smarter than the next magic user who spends their time studying too. Until they've spent more time buried in books than the average mortal adventurer has spent living, they're just nerds with skin conditions and bad body odor, kind of like Rylan.
rylan
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Postby rylan » Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:38 pm

Hey trel, shouldn't you be doing something useful, like defending 1w from other invading rangers?

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