Cleric haste item

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Corth
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Cleric haste item

Postby Corth » Tue Nov 20, 2001 8:04 am

Cyric's post asking for ideas on new eq stats got me thinking...

I think a cleric only haste item would make sense on sojourn 3.

The reason, as I understand it, that haste items were removed was that the haste spell itself had become irrelevant since everyone had haste items. This change had the desired effect. Enchanters/necros casting haste on melee classes is a regular event now. However, you dont see much hasting of clerical classes. Its just not feasible with enchanters considering how many other spells they have to cast.. and even if they weren't swamped with all that work, I think hasting the clerics would be overlooked.

But clerics are not just casters.. they are supposed to be fighters as well. I know Ebgar has a 70+ 2h bludgeon skill. Thats pretty nifty, but with one attack, hes just not doing enough damage to justify wielding a weapon. With two attacks, it would make sense for him to wield a rockcrusher or skullsmasher rather than hold hps.

There has been some talk about adding new spells for clerics. I think helping their melee abilities, through a haste item and perhaps new skills, is an interesting alternative.

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Postby Shevarash » Tue Nov 20, 2001 8:09 am

Interesting idea Corth..
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Postby Jezlic » Tue Nov 20, 2001 8:46 am

Hrmm,

ok, in terms of Sojourn, and this is on my own opinion...Clerics seem more like walking robed priests, then armor clad clerics. I play my cleric, as a priest, because basically he has absolutely no melee abilities. Now, if we are to introduce melee abilities to us 'priests' I would believe the title of cleric would fit accordingly.

However, as I said I play my cleric as a priest, so for my own personnal lusts, I would love to see some higher level heal, damage spells. <Though I am no authority in high levels> I like the no offense, ultimate healing scencario, but I assume I don't speak for all clerics.

My point being is that the class title of cleric does not fit into the role they are suppose to play in sojourn. After all a cleric is a warrior of sorts, of course not as good as the pure swordsmasters and knights, but a fighter with healing abilities. In all honesty, in terms of DND, clerics were as good, if not better then thieves. Now I'm not saying they should have the equivelent combat of a rogue in sojourn, but it is something to think about.

Right now, clerics fit just a fraction better then a pure spellcaster in terms of combat, and that is only because they can wield some better weapons, and +hit,+dam gear. <Again I am no authority in this, just a speculation>. Now, I am happy with the role I play in my young drow life, though the title of my choosen profession 'cleric' does not fit right. Call me a priest, because we are not warriors but healers...

...THAT is my opinion...

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Postby Elseenas » Tue Nov 20, 2001 9:15 am

Jezlic:

At 22nd level:

When I have the armor spell I have an AC of -72.

My hitroll is 6 and my damroll is 8. When I am not tanking, the damroll goes up to 10 but the AC drops by 8.

While not a comparison for a real tank and FAR from a hitter, the idea of an "armored priest" is not that far fetched.

Particularly when I can get a blind off Image

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Postby kiryan » Tue Nov 20, 2001 9:41 am

clerics are typically thought of in 2 ways, robed priests with little melee ability and something more akin to a crusader cept with blunt weapons and healing spells.

DND originally cast them in a battle role. they had decent thac0, same hps as rogues, and could get some great ac with platemail and a shield. 1h blunt weapons were typicaly 1d6 where as daggers were 1d4 and swords 1d8. only thing that rogues ahd on them was backstab and thieving skills.

i dont mind them being battle ready, but no haste items please. it was broken before, it would be broken now. not on the same scale of course. I dont think clerics need any more ability to solo, and im assuming this would be cleric only and not an option for druids and especially not for shaman.

perm haste item is going to be for twink no matter how you look at it. twink at high levels for twinking eq, or at low levels for twinking chars up. you want to make a perm haste item with no impact in the game, give it to enchanters and necros the classes that can cast the spell.
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Postby cherzra » Tue Nov 20, 2001 9:46 am

perm haste = cheese.

Add some bludgeoning cleric only weapons if they're that desperate for something... one that procs a second attack for a short duration. And make it hard as hell to get Image
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Postby rylan » Tue Nov 20, 2001 1:05 pm

I dunno cherz, I think corth has a prety good idea actually.

Personally I've spent a lot of time getting my offensive skills up, so they're just a notch off of the skill caps.
Normally I don't wield, since as mentioned the 1 attack doesn't do much.. but it was damned fun to get hasted.

Normally I'm in zoning +hp mode, but if wear hit/dam stuff I can easily get to 20/18 just with some basic stuff that I carry around.. at that point, its fun to pound on stuff Image

I do think we could use some spanky wep (especially one that human clerics can use). Currently the best thing I can use is misty.. not too impressive.
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Postby Zrax » Tue Nov 20, 2001 2:59 pm

Well I almost like this idea. Here is the problem that i see. Warriors arnt even 100 percent sure to get 2 attacks in a combat round. If it was an item that maybe gave them a chance for an extra attack like a player with double attack then it would be cool. Just my opinion, defenintly a thought provoking idea.
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Postby Lyt » Tue Nov 20, 2001 3:03 pm

Remember all the past posts about roles and abilities on this mud? Well clerics are here to heal, and any damage they do on top of that is a nice added bonus. I think the idea of giving them a haste item is stupid. It is not their role to be doing all of the damage, no matter what they got their 2h bludgeon/offense/etc skills up to. If warriors don't get haste item (which is the class that is most deserving of it) then to give clerics one would be yet another slap in the face of the meatshields on this mud. There has already been enough complaining from warriors about their role in melee, and this would only make it worse.

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Postby Ensis » Tue Nov 20, 2001 5:33 pm

I like the idea.. I don't think it would take away from meatshields, or a slap in the face as lyt put it. I watch lots of clerics sit there and flail away at mobs in desperate hopes of doing SOMETHING amid all the combat when they have nothing to do besides blind/curse.

I think a haste item, or a really low level of double attack would give them something to do and give clerics a new spin so they aren't so boring.

E
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Postby Glorishan » Tue Nov 20, 2001 5:38 pm

I'm in favor of the idea. If for no other reason than this: Clerics, by in large, look 90% the same at high levels. There is very little variance of equipment. You go to a zone, they're all bidding the same piece of equipment. By giving them a haste item, you might see some clerics looking for more hit/dam equipment, rather than the standard hp eq.

Granted, this might upset some of the fighter classed folks, and I know a lot of eq is still done by handouts, but I think it's a good idea, personally.

Glorishan


[This message has been edited by Glorishan (edited 11-20-2001).]
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Postby Baikalisan » Tue Nov 20, 2001 6:07 pm

I dont like the idea of having a haste item for a cleric. All it would be doing is taking up a slot where something more useful could be.

I dont like the idea of a cleric being a hitter either. Honestly how much/often do you hit in a group when your casting spells all the time trying to keep the tank healed? The only place where hitting more would be benificial would be in an experience group.

Now i do like the idea of being able to cast more damage spells in the mid circles. Seventh and Fifth circle are pretty much full due to heal/vitality/fheal spells. What about the rest of them? 4th circle you get flamestrike, Why bother to pray this spell? it's not worth it cuz it will either be shrugged or glanc off the globe. 6th circle you get harm but you dont get to mem more than a couple of these cause Silence person is in same circle and thats more benificial to the group than you gettin off a harm spell hehe.. 8th circle is full harm... nice spell tho cast time is a little much imo.. 9th circle revive and plane shift How many planeshifts ro revives are you going to mem on a regular basis? 1 of each just so you remember the spell is there hehe they arent used much ... could put in a little damage here..

Im honestly pretty happy with the way clerics are right now.. they could be tweaked here and there maybe with another heal spell or a damage spell..but if it's not broke dont try to fix it .....
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Postby Iltavera » Tue Nov 20, 2001 6:09 pm

Do you really think that giving a cleric, and class that is primarily healing, a hasted weapon will cause meatshields to get mad? Heck no. At low levels, cure's only go so far, so most of the time yer sitting there watching for that one time you actually hit the mobs during the fight. At mid levels, you spend most of the time c 'heal' target, c 'heal' target, c 'heal' target, retreat n, rest,pray,sta,s,c 'heal' target, etc. So it won't hurt anything there, considering also how hard this item "should" be to get, so most low clerics won't have them anyways. At high levels, I'm not sure, but from posts I've seen, it's the same as the mids, only using full heals. This idea will give clerics something to do during their off time. I like it. Two thumbs up.

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Postby Ebgar » Wed Nov 21, 2001 12:08 am

I think the point trying to be made here, is that clerics in D&D are Healer/Fighters. We can wear most armor, and hit/dam eq, but are limited in weapons cause of being healers.

Corth is just saying if we're gonna call us Clerics, then make us like clerics are supposed to be. And please, just because we have a second attack, we're not gonna be putting out huge amounts of damage. Just give us something else to do. Take a zone like Jot, I do get times when I could attack, if a tank is properly spelled, i have like 10-12 rounds i could assist and do something, then go back to healing... We play more then role of a robed priest. Hell, even giving us a double attack skill wouldn't be bad either if haste items are being so opposed. The cleric class has pretty much been the same from what i can remember my 5 years here. We did get silence swapped for silence person, that was more of a gameplay balance i think, to let casting mobs get off spells. Double attack and some cool spell in 9th circle would rule. Even new ansi for our spells would be nice! Resurrect i would think should look cool as hell! Considering what I went through to get it.

[This message has been edited by Ebgar (edited 11-20-2001).]
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Postby Backar » Wed Nov 21, 2001 12:43 am

I have to aggree with Corth and Ebgar and Rylan. Someone mentioned above that the "only" time clerics would be able to benefit is in xp groups. Well, what's wrong with that? I've got a level 41 cleric. Doing ship XP (which is what everyone seems to do) I am lucky if I get 1 notch after 3 kills.. meanwhile warriors and rogues are getting 2-3 per kill.. I'm not saying that the xp table should be changed, especially since chanters are way harder to level. But I don't see the problem with allowing clerics to do more damage in xp groups and perhaps gain more xp out of it. If people are worried about too many level 50 clerics, There's not much difference in spells between 40 and 50.. maybe 1 or 2 full heals. Also since ress is tough as hell to quest it's not like they'll be an abundance of ressers on the mud. Finally, like ebgar had said, there are times when as a cleric you assist just to do something so you're not just standing around waiting for the tank to get hurt to heal them and something to make that waiting time more enjoyable would be warmly welcomed.
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Postby Caedym » Wed Nov 21, 2001 12:57 am

No one class should be favored above any others. (CLASS_ONLY Perm Haste Item)

No one player should be favored above any other. (Artifacts)

Issues of balance, classes, or skills, should NOT have an equipment dependency.

Suggesting upgrades for a balanced class, should come AFTER all other classes have been balanced.

Perm Spell Items aren’t as good as Spell Items with LIMITED CHARGES in the long run for the Mud.

Wraiths do not need to mem, let the Haste flo.

Bards/Battlechanters do not need to mem, let the Haste flo.

If a specific class is lacking in numbers, spend time to promote the class and increase it.
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Postby rylan » Wed Nov 21, 2001 2:49 am

The gods did add some skills for clerics (offense, higher bludgeon skills, higher dodge cap) to enable us to be more effective in melee. The problem is, even with those cool skills, we still get 1 attack.

As mentioned, we're not gonna go a lot of damage, unless we deck out in hit/dam gear, which most clerics aren't gonna do for zones, especially with 1 attack.

However, I do find myself swapping out my held hp items to wield a wep even while zoning because I do like being able to hit stuff, and I don't need to be healing all the time.
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Postby Corth » Wed Nov 21, 2001 3:25 am

Perhaps I shouldn't have titled the thread "Cleric haste item". I dont think an item is necessary to accomplish the basic goal.. make clerics more able to do melee damage. However, I think the goal is valid.

If melee were an option for clerics, it would only improve the diversity of the class. You would have some people who stick with the "priest" mentality and go all hps. Others might give up a few hps in order to do some damage.

Currently, melee is not much of an option for clerics. They could wear all hit/dmg and still do hardly any damage at all.. because they have only one attack. And seriously, be honest, wouldn't you laugh if you saw a high level cleric in a group decked out in hit/dmg asking the enchanter for a haste?

The only option I can think of is to somehow give clerics the ability to get more than one attack. Be it a haste item, double attack, or some new skill.. or all of the above.

Clerics will never do the type of melee damage as a warrior, and certainly not as much as a ranger or rogue. Nor should they. However, I can't think of a reason why they shouldn't contribute offensively in an area where they are supposed to be skilled... melee. And considering that they would have offensive skills that are significantly lower then warriors (offense and/or dual attack should top out at a much lower level than warriors), and have no warrior skills such as rescue or bash, I don't think there would be any serious balance issues. I'm not saying make them do significant damage.. just allow them to make a contribution.

Corth

[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 11-20-2001).]
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Postby kiryan » Wed Nov 21, 2001 3:59 am

on eq variety... single most important feature on eq for casters... hps. theres the problem with variety, theres no justification for wearing other eq because hps are the most important. your going to have to make stats more important for casters, or start introducing major negative effects on top end hp eq...

eldritch ring is a decent example -9 str is not really bad -18 starts to hurt. a 45 hp armor with -25 str would be a good upgrade and a stiff penalty or 40 hp armor -20 con. or -5 int/wis/str +5 ss 35 hp bracelets. 25 hp leggings with -18 agility + 5 str. 25 hp sleeves with +10 ss +9 con.

that kind of stuff will get you variety in eq worn. not perm haste eq. perm haste gear will get you clerics running around with a hit/dam set of eq and a hp set of eq. clerics aint going to be giving up hps while zoning.

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 11-20-2001).]
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Postby Corth » Wed Nov 21, 2001 4:42 am

Kiryan:

I agree with the first part of your message.. that the problem with variety among casters is that there is none. All of them wear hps.

I disagree with the other part of your message. I think if clerics had a couple of attacks they might give up some hps for some basic hit/dmg stuffs. Of course, they wouldn't do that now, cause why bother when you only get one attack. If you gave them better skills, or a haste item, thus allowing them to contribute with melee damage, I think you might see more variety in the class.

Tanks, for instance, constantly juggle between hp and hit/dmg eq. For instance, one paladin that I know of wears a purple silk eyepatch. He still does damage, but hes scientific over where hes best able to get hps, and where hes best able to get hit/dmg. Why wouldn't clerics do the same if they were able to get a couple attacks and contribute offensively? They already get fairly decent natural hps.

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Postby Wargo » Wed Nov 21, 2001 7:09 am

Ok while you guys are pondering over this issue, don't just think of it from the human/dorf/elf point of view. Don't forget about the snake clerics. Because of snakes innate, i can get 13/7 hit/dam wearing all hp and wield an average weapon. I can easily get 20/20 hit/dam -100ac and still be able to break 1k in hp. Now if you make a cleric haste item available, I am gonna be rocking. If you know what I can do now, you'll be amazed with what I can do with the haste item. If that is not unbalancing, then I endorse the idea Image

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Postby Corth » Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:08 am

Wargo:

2 attacks at 20damroll (and low offense skill) would hardly be earth-shattering. Much less than an average eq'd warrior. Plus in deciding to get 20/20 + haste your gonna have to give up a fair amount of hps that you currently have... even if the resulting amount of hps is also obscene. Image

Probably, you would give up more hps then you anticipate. If the haste item were a cloak, then assuming you wear a polka, you have to subtract 42 hps from your figure. Btw, that 1k hps figure is with vit right? So i figure minus this vit and 40hps from your polka cloak, you'd be at around 700-720 hps. Thats about your average well equipped un-vit'd mage.

Compare this setup to a druid or shaman with good eq. They get the 1k+ hps also (with vit), but they dont have to lose hps and wear hit/dmg gear in order to cause damage to mobs. All their damage comes from spells. You have offensive spells too, but most of them aren't very practical for zone situations. Of course druids and shaman dont have full heal... but you dont have gheal or moonwell so it all works out Image

I dont really see how the situation you bring up is unbalancing.

Corth

[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 11-21-2001).]
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Postby rylan » Wed Nov 21, 2001 1:04 pm

Actually I wouldn't mind swapping out some of my +hp stuff for some hit/dam eq if I was able to hit more than once Image

I don't need 1100hps all the time for zoning :P
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Postby moritheil » Wed Nov 21, 2001 5:43 pm

ac: -81. I swear that has saved me.

And a few months ago there was a suggestion that at L 40 clerics get 2nd attack.

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Postby Zolth Alebringer » Wed Nov 21, 2001 6:09 pm

I like the idea Corth. I find it very interesting. Bring out the heat!


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Postby Caedym » Wed Nov 21, 2001 6:28 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
And seriously, be honest, wouldn't you laugh if you saw a high level cleric in a group decked out in hit/dmg asking the enchanter for a haste? </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Honestly, I'd salute him or her for being different and doing their own thing. Do you know of any clerics that do this? I would like to meet him or her. If this person(s) could hit/dam in battle and still keep the tank healed like a pro, I'd prefer this person in my groups over a cleric who has more HPs but can't figure out how to glance the tank and keep them healed, even if they had a bazillion HPs. I'd make sure they were kept hasted for being so talented within their chosen profession.

Players who go against the status quo, and still manage to be good at their jobs in a zone group, are the kind talented players I like on my team.
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Postby Gormal » Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:25 pm

With the new switch code clerics would go melee at their own risk....who always gets targetted first on a switch? I think it'd give people a reason to play battlecleric again.
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Postby Tagad » Wed Nov 21, 2001 9:10 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Caedym:
<B> Honestly, I'd salute him or her for being different and doing their own thing. Do you know of any clerics that do this? I would like to meet him or her. If this person(s) could hit/dam in battle and still keep the tank healed like a pro, I'd prefer this person in my groups over a cleric who has more HPs but can't figure out how to glance the tank and keep them healed, even if they had a bazillion HPs. I'd make sure they were kept hasted for being so talented within their chosen profession.

Players who go against the status quo, and still manage to be good at their jobs in a zone group, are the kind talented players I like on my team.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its actually quite easy to hit and heal like a pro. Back in the days of common haste items and artifacts I would constantly assist (kill 3.giant dont assist damn you!) and deal damage in combat *and* I was considered one of the best healers in the game (and I dont think thats just my ego talking this time).

Even though I dont play this incarnation and have no real vested interest now, I do think Corth's idea has merits ^^

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Postby Backar » Wed Nov 21, 2001 11:58 pm

Yes.. Let us do damage.. Backar the BattleCleric wants to play dammit.. As it is with my lousy 11/10 hit/dam cause I was constantly told to loose hit gear cause I need the hps. (and damn.. when I manage to live with a few hps left am I ever grateful). However, everyone that knows me well knows that I am a battlecleric at heart. I constantly assist the only time I do not is when the mob is shielded and I don't get globed, yet very rarely does my tank gets killed, in fact I haven't lost a tank since we got spanked at the 2nd gatehouse in jot. Read the logs section for details on that lovely fight.

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Postby gordex » Thu Nov 22, 2001 1:17 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Caedym:
[B] but can't figure out how to glance the tank and keep them healed]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

'group' command and triggers! Who needs glance for heals?

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Postby Wargo » Thu Nov 22, 2001 3:50 am

Corth,

Like I said, if it isn't unbalancing, then I endorse the idea Image Of course the scenario I was bringing up was not a zoning one. Obviously, in a zoning group, there are plenty hitting power or mage offensives to nullify the added melee damage from hasted clerics. What I had in mind is a situation where the individual survival is being tested, be it a solo run or during a group spank. The new hasted clerics will not have an even greater edge in dealing with this type of situation. This will definitely make clerics one of the best classes. I like it Image

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Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 22, 2001 5:46 am

then lets just give clerics double attack. at least make it a skill that can fail rather than a permanent second attack. I suppose this means they could get 3 attacks a round, maybe thats not such a hot idea. maybe instead of a perm haste item, they should get a self only spell that doesnt stack with haste that gives them a limited haste maybe 50% as effective as enc/necro haste. then they can haste on themselves.

Anyhow, clerics can already play a battle role if they wish, they can ask for haste, they can wear some hit/dam gear. they dont need a perm haste item except to solo.

hastes are cast sparingly these days, maybe the length of haste or casting time needs to be improved to * so folks will throw them more often.

I still think its going to give clerics too much twink. High level clerics can already solo a tremendous amount, why make it easier. Silence, vit, fheal, blind...haste its pretty insane. High level clerics can solo pretty much any non zone 1on1 fight, especially if its a caster.

Im adamantly against shaman having access to this perm haste item... not to keen on druids getting it either. I dont know shaman twink, but i bet its sizeable. A druid i know well solod tako/lustrous every boot with his 150 hp elemental and doom.... now they got 1k treants, pwt, and doom hits harder?

!perm haste for priests of any kind please. they can ask like everyone else.
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Postby Corth » Thu Nov 22, 2001 5:59 am

Kiryan:

give clerics more damage would not allow them to solo anything that they can't currently solo. It would just allow them to do it quicker. What it comes down to is basically a cleric can pretty much solo anything that is not itself clerical, and which doesnt track. If the mob is lurable to the edge of another zone, then clerics can solo tracking mobs. It will take them a while, but they can do it. With more damage, they can do it quicker, but you still won't be giving them the ability to solo mobs they currently cannot.

Also, clerics used to wear haste items, and nobody ever suggested back in the day that it was unbalancing. Maybe it was considered unbalancing when warriors wore haste items, but I never heard a complaint about it with clerics.

The reason, once again, that haste items were removed was to make the haste spell mean something. It worked. Melee classes are constantly being hasted now, both during exp, and during zones. However, clerics are rarely hasted, if ever. Conclusion: a cleric haste item could be added without making the haste spell useless again.

Corth
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Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 22, 2001 2:14 pm

i dont think cleric need more solo ability, i didnt say the could solo anything bigger with the ability to be hasted while solo, just not any more ability. i dont think they need to solo shit quicker. and clerics can solo cleric mobs / casting mobs quite effectively with silence.

yes back in the day clerics wore haste items, anyone who could wield a spanky weapon wore a haste item. some mages went around with the nobits flamberges hasted too. haste meant dick and when they separated the sorc they needed something else to make the enc class meaningful not just that they could stone and globe. they also needed to reduce melee dam to make way for invokers. at least that was my interpretation when it all went down.

now giving clerics haste isnt going to upset the balance of melee dam vs spell dam. it might make some warriors uptight that clerics can do 80 or so dam a round (20 from an 8d4 weapon and 20 from damroll) while warriors are doing around 120 (10 from weapon 30 from damroll since they wearing a shield). it will make your upper end groups easier and more enjoyable with skullsmasher/rockcrusher wielding clerics...

lets make the haste item 1hb weapon with the same dice as a excellent 1hs no proc and see how many clerics walk the battle cleric path.
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Postby rylan » Thu Nov 22, 2001 5:44 pm

From my perspective as a cleric, we can solo mage type caster mobs.. it just takes a _long_ time since full harm doesn't do much damage.
Trying to solo a cleric mob as a cleric is a lesson in futility.. you can silence a high lvl cleric mob and start full harming (tickling) it, but silence will wear off before you can do much damage.. so the mob heals itself while you try to resilence. You basically get a stalemate.

Soloing tracking mobs is rare for us, unless its a smaller mob. Same even with big warrior mobs that don't track. Even with 1k+ hps a bash has a good chance to kill us if we're trying to solo a lvl 55+ mob.

My point is that I don't see this making clerics be able to solo any more stuff than we already can. As corth said, it may just let us solo faster.. however, for soloing, we're probably gonna wear +hp eq anyway so we can eat a spell from a caster or survive a bash from a mob.

I can't really see it unbalancing anything.. it'll just give us a little something cool to have fun with instead of standing around when the tank doesn't need heals Image
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Postby Koraw » Fri Nov 23, 2001 1:29 pm

On clerics and thier battle abiltity. Playing both a warrior and a cleric I have these thoughts...clerics should not get second attack per se. A mid-level self-only "super-bless" and/or some defensive ability besides dodge, maybe a low cap shieldblock since 'clerics' are already versed in the use of them. Clerics are NOT warriors, and shouldn't get as many attacks. In RP terms, they devote most of thier time to prayer/meditation and the like, and a small amount on weapons/armor/other warfare skills. However, they SHOULD be able to hit fairly often and be able to put up at least a token defense when switched to...just my 2.4 cents.

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Postby Yasden » Fri Nov 23, 2001 4:19 pm

Perm haste would be another slap in the face for warriors who aren't even guaranteed 100% double attack.

Clerics getting double attack at 50th lvl or something would be much more feasible. Giving them offense at 40th would be debatable. But don't give them haste....skills are what we need more of, not eq. There's enough damned eq out there as it is. Variety = restrung items, I already mentioned that in Cyric's eq post.

Keep clerics limited to 1h/2h bludgeon, let them master it, give them offense at 40th, double attack at 50th. Solves the cleric/fighter dilemma. I do agree with making them the fighter/healers they should be, but with fheals, too much of a fighter upgrade would make them more valuable than warriors (we'd just be used for bashing, rescuing, and shieldpunching then).

If something like this went in, I NEVER WANT TO EVER HEAR CLERIC BITCHING AT ME FOR GETTING HP EQ AGAIN! Warriors get bitched at for bidding/receiving hp eq, but now we've got the casters saying "hey, I wanna bid on hitter eq!"....feh, hypocrites.

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Postby Cerlayne » Fri Nov 23, 2001 9:44 pm

at first i loved the idea of cleric only haste item... but after listening to koraw explain.. (in much more detail then you guys got to hear.. gotta love husbands... grin) why it's a bad idea.. i'm half and half... i agree that clerics need a lil boost to their fighting abilities... i'm just not sure a haste item is what's needed... i think some of the suggestions made above in regards to tweaking a few skills should be looked into first before we go with a cleric only haste item...

Cerly 'OMG what do i do with all this leftover turkey??!!'
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Postby Ebgar » Fri Nov 23, 2001 10:00 pm

Yasden,

Clerics already have an offense skill.

and yes, i don't think we should get access to more weapons at all, 1h/2h bludgeon is fine w/me....but double attack skill at 40 sounds good to me....
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Postby rylan » Fri Nov 23, 2001 10:47 pm

yeah, we get offense skill. And no, I definately will not bid on warrior/hitter eq if other people in the group need stuff.
I'd go for hp eq, and then slowly gather some leftover hitter eq.. in fact thats what I've been doing so far.

Cleric skill caps at lvl 50...
Offense 50
1h/2h Bludgeon 80
Dodge 50

Hard to say that tweaking any of that stuff up will really make a differance. I think our dodge at 50 makes sense.. bludgeon at 80 is alright (maybe 90 max if you want something tweaked).. offense at 50. yeah, guess so.. since other priest classes don't even get offense, I can't complain too much about that one :P

There've been a lot of good ideas here. I think it all comes down to that as clerics we don't always have to be healing the tanks, and we'd like to be able to do something fun while standing around.
Even if there were better cleric shield is the game.. I'd much rater wear a shield, but there aren't any shields with AC that compare to the +hps of a nebbie, so I hold those damned orbs.

Edited because I can't spell :P

[This message has been edited by rylan (edited 11-23-2001).]
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Postby Todrael » Sat Nov 24, 2001 4:06 am

There's a very nice +hp and good ac cleric only shield. I think it's only 5 hps off from nebbie.

-Todrael
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Postby rylan » Sat Nov 24, 2001 5:51 am

probably !good? :P
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Postby kiryan » Sat Nov 24, 2001 4:40 pm

i dont think clerics need any more melee ability. i dont think they should be able to master 1h/2hb. there dodge and offense is already quite healthy.

I was embarrassed by a Zipalodok in terms of tanking ability at 38 troll warrior he was 50. yea thats a lot of levels, but he got critted far less and tanked at least 10% better. Of course, i noticed some major gains in tanking ability around 47 so i suspect some of what i witnessed has more to do with level than skills. Still, no shieldblock, no better dodge, no mastering 1h/2hb, no haste. if offense is tied to dam im against that too. i dont want a 2hb cleric (8d4) to come anywhere close to the dam a 1hs warrior (3d5) does. i dont care what the comparison is 2hb to 2hx. warrior tanks like shit without a shield.

ponder, how does a 50 cleric tank next to a 50 war with no shield... in terms of hit/miss with -100 ac.
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Postby Corth » Sat Nov 24, 2001 5:06 pm

Clerics can usually tank pretty well because of their generally enormous hps at high level with decent gear, and usually clerics do quite well at healing themself. Not having the various tanking skills that paladins and warriors have, though, should mean that they take a lot more damage then a meatshield would.

Corth
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Postby Elseenas » Sun Nov 25, 2001 6:00 pm

kiryan:

Think very hard about what you are saying.

A level 38 troll warrior was ALMOST (10%) tanking as well as a 50th level *Duergar* Cleric.

The Cleric will NEVER get any better while the Warrior will continue to improve. Further, the melee code selects for levels when calculating hitting (at least, thats what is being reported)



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Postby Guest » Sun Nov 25, 2001 9:33 pm

As Shevy said, Its an interesting idea.

But don't count on it happening. Image The reasons are obvious. Perm-Haste is bad, we (and most players) agreed long ago that it was just too abusable.

Miax
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Postby Backar » Sun Nov 25, 2001 10:17 pm

I have noticed that circle 9 spells are practically useless for clerics. Revive is a nice spell, but honestly how many times has anyone casted it? I'm still waiting b/c everyone's waiting to get ressed instead. As for planeshift, it's a quest spell (one where most people will not go to the "big bad mob with insta death by gulping" in order to get the necessary component. Furthermore, even if someone has it, it is just as rarely used since the mages with gate are the ones that get used since it can accomodate for the rest of the group.

Now to my point. What about giving clerics something usefull in circle 9? Either an offense spell, a protective spell in between bark and dscales, or just some spell that will likely to be used. I mean I'd like a little change from the usual fheal and fharm combination that's been my life since level 36.

Just my 2 Cdn (1.3 US) cents worth.
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Postby kiryan » Mon Nov 26, 2001 10:25 am

I said at least 10%, i didnt want to suggest some ridiculous number though i suspect it was higher.

I didnt think that was cool, but i accepted it considering the level difference. Adding extra attacks for clerics though stretches my concept of balance between clerics and warriors considerably especially considering the dice on the good 2hb weapons and the dam on the fiery mace proc...

in terms of hit roll, my count with no rare eq is a 34 hitroll in eq, 5 from weapon, plus dex which tops out at 6. Thats a staggering 45 ish hitroll. i think haste would be a problem since i wouldnt call my knowledge definitive and im not counting rare eq.

10, earsx2, braceletsx2, mask
9, eyes, cloak, belt
8, ringsx2
7, arms, legs, armor, feet, head, neckx2

Do you really want to see a 40/25 perm hasted 8d4 bash procing full healing -100 ac cleric? Actually, i do, be hell of a lot of fun to play. I guarantee if a cleric perm haste item goes in, you will count me among the first to abuse it. perm haste is broken.

Elenaas you a database programmer? heh

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 11-26-2001).]
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Postby moritheil » Mon Nov 26, 2001 3:23 pm

liquefy undead!

and 2nd attack at lvl 40ish sounds like what the discussion is shaping out to be.
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Postby kiryan » Mon Nov 26, 2001 11:07 pm

Vote NO on more cleric melee ability.

you wanna melee, wear hit/dam eq and get a haste like everyone else.

I would support more dam spells for clerics, more so and more powerful ones if they were restricted to undead/daemons, especially in their upper circles. You could also make ress quest easier and drop it down to 41 then make their new dam spells ultra hard to get. Ress is essential, make it easy please? Make optional things difficult.

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