Humans and evil race....

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gogk
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Humans and evil race....

Postby gogk » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:42 am

I personally think this is a good idea for several reasons.

1) It opens a new playing field for evils to get more zone groups. Since I have been playing a necro I really could care less about the problems the evils are having with the lack of zoning and whatnot. But, realistically it does help the pbase for the evil race side.

2) For all those RP freaks out there, story line dorks, and whoever else, I can see it creating a side of evils people mostly see in movies or read in books. Having an *evil* human mastermind/general of an army type person running things. Generally the evil races are not supposed to be as smart as human. That isn't to say that humans are by far smarter.....
but it may open doors to seperate some issues with 1 race dominant classes. Or it may infact create a more diverse element of grouping.

3) Thinking back to the days that Anti-Paladins were utterly useless, this intergration may infact boost a level of playing for any and all.

Now don't get me wrong owning zone groups because you have the Grey-elf chanter, the dwarf rogue/cleric dwarf/barb warrior........or troll warrior and duergar cleric drow/yuan chanter. you throw humans in that mix and the playing field broadens greatly.

im all for it. good job. i hope it sticks around.

Gogk/Argl/Jarikon/Gimkas.
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Postby Cordan » Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:01 pm

Makes for a good reason to roll a human instead of other races too.
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Postby rylan » Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:16 pm

Yay for another huge negative penalty for playing a good aligned human cleric.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:54 pm

same as halfling cleric, deal with it
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:59 pm

Or elven cleric... or elven rogue, for that matter. What about barbarians? They're technically human, so can they play with evils too?
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Postby thanuk » Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:00 pm

Ashiwi wrote: What about barbarians? They're technically human, so can they play with evils too?


Tried that, no dice. See you on EM!
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:12 pm

I would be so much more supportive of this if it were a complete outcasting. I've been supportive of outcasting since it was taken away, but in a somewhat different form than it used to be. Playing a good-aligned rogue was already completely discouraged... I guess now they've gone and made it official that playing a good-aligned elven rogue is just plain stupid.

I understand the need for bandages for the evils, and I applaud the recognition of the need to take steps... but handicapping a large portion of the good population is a very shortsighted manner of bolstering the evil playability. You think it's not a handicap? This will just lead to picking and choosing players who can play on both sides, and having to dump some players from groups when they are no longer viable with the alignment/race structure of incoming players. A viable outcast system, where players can be outcast and group with evils, but be shunned from the rest of good society, would be a much more workable solution in the long-term picture.
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Postby Kanave » Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:17 pm

I REALLY like this idea i have a friends that play on evil races.. It will be fun to run with them for a change!
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Postby thanuk » Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:20 pm

You think you have it bad? Think of the rangers!
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:29 pm

thanuk wrote:You think you have it bad? Think of the rangers!


This won't affect rangers at all... they're used to being unwanted.
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Postby Ensis » Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:42 pm

Ashiwi wrote:I guess now they've gone and made it official that playing a good-aligned elven rogue is just plain stupid.


wow....just......wow......

This will just lead to picking and choosing players who can play on both sides, and having to dump some players from groups when they are no longer viable with the alignment/race structure of incoming players. A viable outcast system, where players can be outcast and group with evils, but be shunned from the rest of good society, would be a much more workable solution in the long-term picture.


nobody plays humans. nobody is going to play a human. they certainly aren't going to give up all their slick little innates just so they can group with evils or vice versa.

I think if you all played humans you'd realize how anti-climactic this change actually was. The fact that you don't play humans should be testament to why it doesn't matter. they suck at everything compared to at least one other race, and sometimes multiple other races.

Holy crap, the coders went and gave an advantage to humans..everyone with innate sneak, invisibility, ultravision, extra hit points, etc. better get it too!

whateva
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Postby Yayaril » Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:12 am

8)

All I play are humans.
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Postby Tasan » Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:15 am

Ashiwi wrote:
thanuk wrote:You think you have it bad? Think of the rangers!


This won't affect rangers at all... they're used to being unwanted.


If a rogue cries at 3w, does anyone care?

How's it feel to be unneeded.

T
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Postby Sarell » Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:45 am

I think your wrong ensis, I for one definately would. Many of my friends used to play necro for just that reason.
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Postby Cordan » Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:11 pm

LOL. I did a who human last night, then did a who neutral.

17 humans
3 of which were paladins and rangers
1 was a druid

The other 13 were casters.

That's not a bad percentage of the goodies if you ask me.

But I still don't think it's going to make that big of a difference. The good population is just to big for this to really harshly affect it. It will have some affect, but not the gut wrenching apocalypse everyone seems to think it will cause.
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Postby rylan » Fri Dec 19, 2003 2:48 pm

I play a human, always liked human class for cleric mofr than the ugly dwarves, especially with the convienance of wording to WD.
However I still feel this is another huge bonus for neutral clerics, who already don't get stunned by holy/unholy word in zones and have access to better eq. As I've said, this reinforces the incentive for humans to go neutral or evil, especially for clerics, as being a good cleric has virtually NO advantage of being neutral. And I'm not even looking for an advantage, just reasonable equality between aligment choices. The way it is now good aligned clerics get even more screwed.
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Postby Tasan » Fri Dec 19, 2003 6:44 pm

rylan wrote:I play a human, always liked human class for cleric mofr than the ugly dwarves, especially with the convienance of wording to WD.
However I still feel this is another huge bonus for neutral clerics, who already don't get stunned by holy/unholy word in zones and have access to better eq. As I've said, this reinforces the incentive for humans to go neutral or evil, especially for clerics, as being a good cleric has virtually NO advantage of being neutral. And I'm not even looking for an advantage, just reasonable equality between aligment choices. The way it is now good aligned clerics get even more screwed.


Go write a zone w/ good aligned cleric eq. This whole argument is stupid. It's not the coders fault that the area wanks hate good aligned clerics.

T
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Fri Dec 19, 2003 6:47 pm

rylan wrote:...always liked human class for cleric...


Human is a race. Cleric is a class.
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Postby thanuk » Fri Dec 19, 2003 7:01 pm

mynazzaraxxsyn wrote:
rylan wrote:...always liked human class for cleric...


Human is a race. Cleric is a class.


*slap*

Don't start with this shit:)
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Lilithelle » Fri Dec 19, 2003 9:05 pm

Humans are a poor choice for most classes, so I don't mind if people want to pick human to group with evils. I couldn't stomache it myself. Wouldn't be a bad idea to give some races a minor wisdom upgrade so those picking human cleric do pay a price for doing so. Its clearly better to play a non-human mage and non-human warrior. Human rogue isn't terrible, a bit of a compremise. Maybe dwarves and elves should get 26 second 1st level praytime instead of the 28 for humans. We do live a long time, one aquires wisdom with age.

There should definitely be some price for being a neutral/evil human or a human that groups with evils. Like being outcast from certain towns, maybe if a town is deamed to be one that is "good aligned" on the whole. Like Mithral hall. You could lift the outcasting automatically if they go good aligned, you could perhaps stop people from sitting on alignment edge by making it so that only <0 aligns can group with evils. That makes sense anyway, if neutrals can group with evils it should at least not be neutral-goods but neutral-evils. And being good aligned is a punishment, should be eq that is better if your good aligned, other than the ugly hood from clouds. What about making unholy word hit aligns down to 0, and holy hitting aligns upto 0. Could have it to 1/2 damage to neutrals maybe? at least take away some of the reason for going neutral.
Good aligns need advantages!
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Postby rylan » Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:53 pm

*nod* Thanuk. And quite frankly I'm also beyond tired of the old line "If you don't like it go write a zone with eq for yourself". The changes are being done based on the CURRENT state of the mud, not some future mystical faerie dream land.
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Postby Salen » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:17 pm

Yeah!!!! One more reason to run and hide from bing good aligned.

Anyone wanna plevel a human druid for me?

Oh yeah, and LF doom/well quest pieces.
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Postby Dalar » Sat Dec 20, 2003 12:19 am

I haven't bothered to read through any of posts above b/c it's usually a waste of time.

Has anyone mentioned how evils just got another area class? Before this change, goodies didn't have squids and evils didn't have druids. Now evils have EVERYTHING.

If you're going to keep this evil/neutral human interaction, can you give goodies githzerai for psi? With this trial change, the racewar balance is just between psi/dire vs paladin/ranger, and insane innates vs craptastic stats. If you are thinking "hey, what about dayblind?!", sun shadow, the fog series, and globe all make dayblind easy to get around.
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Postby rylan » Sat Dec 20, 2003 12:53 am

Yes actually I did bring up that question in one of these threads. I forget which, but I think it was the 'Evils and humans together again' poll thread, and it got ignored due to people complaining about duergars in other threads.

Basically the change gives evil groups access to all of the major area damage classes, in addition to their racial benefits. It'll be interesting when groups destroy some big zones with doom/inferno/ultrablast going off simultaneously.
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Postby Gromikazer » Sat Dec 20, 2003 1:02 am

It dosen't really matter. We can bring a druid, or another invoker, or another lich, or another elementalist, or another psi. The fact that we can bring a druid is not a big deal at all. In fact I only know of 2 human druids, and neither of them have played for months and months.

I disagree that this is a valid issue at all.
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Postby Salen » Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:46 pm

How long does it take to level a druid to 46+?

I'm betting there is an anon druid out there right now that's approaching it already.

Anyone wanna take that bet? (Admin don't count, they cheat and look at levels)

Just because there isn't currently doesn't mean there won't be.

As for the druids being ok with trolls, all of the D&D reasons for it not being ok were based on the idea trolls were magically created and 'unnatural'.
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Postby Karae » Sat Dec 20, 2003 8:51 pm

Grouped with a level 49 human druid last night.

Not gonna give names though, cause i don't know if they leveled for this or not or whatever. But there is one
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sat Dec 20, 2003 9:52 pm

i'm all for the changes. i would like to see, however, that it be changed to EVIL humans only. Evil aligned humans already are outcast from some regular towns just for being evil... well not exactly outcast, but attacked on sight is just as bad. Evils needed a boost, and quite possibly still need more, but i believe an outcast system similar to the old one we knew on a similar mud is just too much.

Del
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Postby Sarell » Sun Dec 21, 2003 2:00 am

I think outcast system defintely needs to be re-introduced, hard coded. At the moment from my perception the only reason you would roll a !human caster would be if you are feeling a tad silly.
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Postby Lilithelle » Sun Dec 21, 2003 4:23 am

Human mages take a 25% penalty in mem time over gnome and elf, gnomes are bashable by fewer races due to their small size and still get human hps. I think only a lunatic would pick human for mage. And maybe people will pick human for cleric, but if you check my response to Moritheil's post on humans/evils and transport spells I lay out why elf is still by far the best choice for druids.
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Postby Yarash » Sun Dec 21, 2003 12:22 pm

Sarell wrote:At the moment from my perception the only reason you would roll a !human caster would be if you are feeling a tad silly.


I had thought that most experienced players made non-human casters due to better racial stats. Stat wise, there is no reason to be human instead of a gnome.

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Postby Yayaril » Sun Dec 21, 2003 4:08 pm

Lilithelle wrote:Human mages take a 25% penalty in mem time over gnome and elf, gnomes are bashable by fewer races due to their small size and still get human hps. I think only a lunatic would pick human for mage. And maybe people will pick human for cleric, but if you check my response to Moritheil's post on humans/evils and transport spells I lay out why elf is still by far the best choice for druids.
Lil


I am that lunatic! You don't have to worry about getting eaten by rhemos as a human, though.

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