Class balance

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Ruggak
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Class balance

Postby Ruggak » Mon Jul 26, 2004 7:44 pm

The talk of balance will be a never ending one on games like this, simply because when you add new content you almost always remove the balance that was previously created. I have always had a soft spot for the Paladin and the Anti-Paladin. 2 obviously great roleplay classes. Very nice end game weapons. Mounted combat is a nice edition. Almost crap without their mount, Rangers same thing in diffrent ways archery ect ect. Major problem Zoning. While these classes are fine additions to the exp group, why take a paladin ranger or anti-paladin when you can have a warrior or invoker. The limitations on their abilities are for balance sake but to enhance the classes they should be able to bring something useful to the 15 man zone group no other class can. All the casters have a specific function or use. Why not the Melee.
Paladins could be the best at rescuing and emergency healing.
Rangers can have area effect melee attacks with their arrows (exploding arrows).
Anti-paladins can have stat reducing effects, fear auras r be the best stunners (horse charge, warcry).
There are limitless possibilities rather than making them cleric/warriors with mount or druid/warriors with archery which are not that useful in a zone group. They should be truly unique classes that any zone group would be happy to bring along. So as to say man a shaman would be real useful right now yes we can go without group heal but it would be great..same should be able to be said about that Anti-paladin 1 would be great right now we can go without 1 but it would be real useful to have 1.
Feel free to chime in not the be all end all but food for thought.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Wed Jul 28, 2004 12:36 am

You know, it just hit me. A bonus for classes that don't get picked.
This could apply to rangers/antis/paladins.

Make it so they don't count towards group max. they are a null. As in
if you have an anti or a paladin or a ranger in your group you
can have a group size of 16! Simple, doesn't require TOO much
coding, and wouldn't upset PvP more than it already is.
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Postby Sarell » Thu Jul 29, 2004 7:24 am

Antis need some sort of code that stops them from AFKing I find.
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Postby kiryan » Mon Aug 02, 2004 11:42 pm

anti, paladin, ranger need realism to take a back seat to functionality.

arrows on mobs and in player inventories is realistic but a pain in the ass especially if people keep your arrows or it crashes and you lose all of them.

not being able to summon hourses in some other planar zones is realistic, but sucks big ass when you or the horse dies especially in a !teleport or whatnot.

not being able to ride a horse through a door or from outside to inside may be realistic in that you'd bash your brains out, but makes consistent anti/paladin tanking difficult above not having the high hps or being able to get a mount. i mean really, without sneak whats your chances of being able to walk into a 10 mob fight and mount before getting engaged. Being able to mount in combat would help solve this although that first round could hurt too much if your not mounted. Also, its funny that the classes that could benefit the most from embodiment can not use it effectively.

rangers / paladins / antis aren't gimpd in their class abilities or hps as much as they are unable to be consistent in any particular area. rangers are not consistent high damage, pal/anti are not consistent tanks.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Tue Aug 03, 2004 12:51 am

kiryan wrote:not being able to summon hourses in some other planar zones is realistic, but sucks big ass when you or the horse dies especially in a !teleport or whatnot.


Other than indoors or underwater, i have yet to find an area i cannot
summon a mount.
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Postby kiryan » Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:29 pm

you can summon a mount on the planes?
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Ihazim » Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:08 am

bonus exp for classes with the least ammount of that class on!
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:36 am

kiryan wrote:you can summon a mount on the planes?



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Postby Ashod » Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:26 am

I just want to say that it isn't just upgrading anti/pal/rang that needs to be done. A balancing on invokers is in the works if i am not wrong, but there are other classes that could use some help.

One thing that i have noticed is that fact that there is an abundance of players that have solo classes and group based classes.. There is an over abundance of three classes that I have noticed. Rogues, Elementalists, and Invokers. Why is this? because they are extremely potent for specific tasks. Invokers are quite easy to play and no one turns them down from a group. It was the number one reason I rolled mine to be honest. Rogues are the ultimate scout. Any leading player that doesn't have one should get one and go learn about zones. Elementalists are the ultimate solo class atm and if your not into big groups they are extremely powerful for aquiring items if you have the patiences.


A few ideas that could help out with class balance

Elementalists the supreme soloist.

Necro/Lich/Shaman are hindered by resource of pet ability

Elementalist have no such resource hindering and the can summon them with no limits.. take this away and much of the elementalist power will deminish.

Elementalists also have the ability to heal themselves and others with a mix of a few spells. Take this away and yet more power is taken away but will leave them with still enough power to be good soloing classes.

Invokers the damage gods.

to balance this I only see one possible solution. make more than one invoker in a group useless in the area sense. If only one invoker can be casting area at a time no matter the circle you will deminish alot of there effectiveness. This will also bring down their numbers in groups and you might see more rangers back in the swing for target damage.

Rogues

Rogues are the skill class of the mud... they are easy to play but very hard to master. You can do about anything with this class if you have the knowledge and the quick wit to do it. Unbelievable scouts and targets for folding groups around zones for quick kills. Although they are not as good as rangers for damage, there are a few items in the game that make them just as good at melee damage once these items are aquired. Once this is done taking a ranger is out of the question.

If you want to balance this... take away second attack, and downgrade skill cap on offense to 70. Upgrade vital strike cap to max 99 if it isn't already.. i believe it is 90. do some work with poisons (maybe add and alchemist skill so they can make minor poisons with the right items). Backstab should only work non engaged mobs or pron mobs (IE bashed,stunned ect...)

the problem is that they are too powerful with the combination of being effectent in melee combat and having a ton of usefull skills..
make them primarily sneak attack useful and skill useful..
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Postby Pril » Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:48 pm

i recently noticed something interesting. plz don't take this is a bitch or me asking to upgrade vokers or downgrade ills just wanted comments.

I was in arena recently and i know tendrils works differently than force missile for example but in a 1 on 1 fight it's the same.

Tendrils actually does more damage than force missiles + it can be dragged + it has a chance to slow. Again just found in interesting didn't know tendrils did that much damage i had a -23 sv_Spell and was taking around 350 damage a round from it.

Pril
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Postby Snurgt » Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:59 pm

Tendrils is 10th circle and a quested spell, force missiles is 8th circle and scribed at guildmaster.
Delmair Aamoren
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sat Aug 14, 2004 1:43 am

Snurgt hit it right on the head. Also, force missiles does all the damage
at once, vs you having to sit there and take it from the tendrils. And as
a mage, why does slowness matter to you? =P


In response to Ashods post above regarding rogues, you are 100% right
imho. Rogues are the latest installment in the trend of "upgrades" to
classes. it seems that a class goes from being near useless, to being
a superpower. There seems to be no middle of the road for these
changes. The same was true of rangers when archery first came in. Now
archery isn't "superb" but more of a token ability (thanks missile shield!).
Making rogues a little less of a "melee invoker" but allowing them to
keep their skills, perhaps adding some poison making (great idea) would
be a great start. My suggestion would be a) decrease rogue damage
SLIGHTLY on backstab and circle b) reduce damage done by a dagger
so its less (on average) than most longswords. c) up damage on
2h weapons, or decrease longswords so 2h weapons are competitive.
d) up melee across the board SLIGHTLY.
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Postby Corth » Sat Aug 14, 2004 5:49 am

Commence broken record...

Yawn.. one day Shev will recognize what I have been repeating for years.. splitting up the Sorc class into invokers and enchanters threw the mud into an unbalanced situation that it has never been able to recover from.

Getting rid of the 30 second mem penalty was not a mistake, but in tandem with increased spell damage it further unbalanced things as casters began using their increased power at a quicker rate.

Targeted silence was the straw that broke the camel's back.

It has been obvious to anyone with eyes that can see that the mud is out of wack, and has been for many years now. Radical change is needed.. and not the type that takes six years to code....

I apologize for those who have seen this before.. I make a point of having one of these rants once a year at the least. Not that too many people are left to read them anymore...

Corth
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Postby Ambar » Sat Aug 14, 2004 6:59 am

mmm that 30 sec lag before casting pwned silence! mmmmmm spectre xp's !!!
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Postby Gura » Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:26 am

Corth wrote:Commence broken record...

Yawn.. one day Shev will recognize what I have been repeating for years.. splitting up the Sorc class into invokers and enchanters threw the mud into an unbalanced situation that it has never been able to recover from.

Getting rid of the 30 second mem penalty was not a mistake, but in tandem with increased spell damage it further unbalanced things as casters began using their increased power at a quicker rate.

Targeted silence was the straw that broke the camel's back.

It has been obvious to anyone with eyes that can see that the mud is out of wack, and has been for many years now. Radical change is needed.. and not the type that takes six years to code....

I apologize for those who have seen this before.. I make a point of having one of these rants once a year at the least. Not that too many people are left to read them anymore...

Corth


well said
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Postby kiryan » Mon Aug 16, 2004 5:05 am

Corth wrote:Yawn.. one day Shev will recognize what I have been repeating for years.. splitting up the Sorc class into invokers and enchanters threw the mud into an unbalanced situation that it has never been able to recover from.


disagree, i like the variety caused by the split

Corth wrote:Getting rid of the 30 second mem penalty was not a mistake, but in tandem with increased spell damage it further unbalanced things as casters began using their increased power at a quicker rate.


100% agree, this has an unbelievable huge impact on game play, and gave the players significantly more power than the split even created. Melee damage wouldnt look so bad if it took 41 seconds to mem back a force missile.

Corth wrote:Targeted silence was the straw that broke the camel's back.


agree, only slightly balanced in that mobs silencing players is a frequent occurence, but this basically allowed casters to selectively disable a mob while having full access to their improved spells.

Add caster stuns to this selective enfeebling of mobs that are way to damn often and effective as well as the whole host of spell affects that were added to damage spells. Sandblast is a good spell on its own, it doesnt need to blind and silence.

Corth wrote:It has been obvious to anyone with eyes that can see that the mud is out of wack, and has been for many years now. Radical change is needed.. and not the type that takes six years to code....


i don't think that the whole system is out of whack. I don't think we need drastic change.

I think they have done a lot in the last 3 years to make tanking skills provide a tangible affect to ability to tank. AC is effective, tank skills are effective, grey elf tanks are viable. I think classes focusing on melee damage should have their damage increased.

I think area spell damage should be decreased. I dont think every caster class needs 1 certainly not 2 or 3.

I think melee classes that focus on damage need to see their damage doubled. Khanjari does a good job for rogues. Rangers and Dires prolly need something to a lesser degree as well as archery to be improved and made less cumbersome.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Dalar » Mon Aug 16, 2004 6:19 am

Get rid of the high burst damage. Fights shouldn't be determined by X amount of invokers that you must bring to zone and protect.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Silsaterur » Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:28 pm

Corth wrote:Getting rid of the 30 second mem penalty was not a mistake, but in tandem with increased spell damage it further unbalanced things as casters began using their increased power at a quicker rate.


Pretty much, I remember the day that invokers damage got upped the first time and vokers were running around soloing mobs by simply outdamaging them. Though them getting bashed had hilarious (often leathal) consequences!

Paladins, rangers and rogues all fell by the wayside...er moreso. Groups were almost exclusively made of Warriors, Invokers, Enchanters, Clerics and sometimes Shamans. (whatever happened to Trilor and her hubby?)

The game has changed a lot since then and many of the above classes (and the new classes) have all found thier niche, but the problem that remains is that Invokers set the tempo of a fight. Tank engages, well protected of course, and hopes that the clerics/chanters can keep him alive until the invokers obliterate everything else that moves.

Yes invokers should do more damage, (like maybe 10-15% more than the next nastiest caster) but you also have to remember that the next nastiest caster will also be memming non-offesive spells as well. While the groups invokers will be memming offence almost to the exclusion of all else and will therefore deal that much more damage...

Imagine if groups could be like "hrm... going to some big nasty zone, but there are no ivokers on. You there illusionist, mem all your offence spells!" and if melee was upped you might even hear "you there! Ranger! Prepare your swords for battle." and omg imagine! "Paladin and anti, we need the power of your 2h swords."

Corth wrote:Targeted silence was the straw that broke the camel's back.


Ice tongue, the spell that allows a elementalist to totally rawk caster mobs. I'm pretty sure it offers the same sort of capability to every class that has silencesque spells. Imagine what leetists can do with this power!

in the end, I think that the only things you should absolutely need to zone should be a meatshield, a fhealer and a scaler. Then how you chose to do damage could be dispersed amongst invokers and other mages for areas, and melee classes for ganging big bad mofo mobs like tia. Not that force missile should ever be anything to sneaze at.
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