Interesting things from Duris

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
kiryan
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Interesting things from Duris

Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 24, 2005 7:52 am

I've been playing a lot of Duris lately, it takes a lot of attention to learn and play. I've noticed that they have some very interesting thiings over there that I think we could take a look at.

please please please

do comment if you come up with a creative spin or idea as a result of any of these features.

do not over comment. the details and implementation of each idea would be varied and appropriate for toril, these are broad concepts or specific features that demonstrate a concept. not a direct suggestion for implementation. Agree or disagree in principle.

do not talk about lack of immortal time, or how long it would take to implement a feature ect... don't talk about how its copying duris or any other game.

do comment on why you did or didnt like one of these specific features on another mud.

----------------------------

1. You really can't afk in zone.

This is effected in numerous different ways.

In some zones, the "assist" command simply does not work, you have to manually type kill xyz and assist returns an error message like "you cannot".

In other zones, there are dozens of exits through which you can not follow your leader (like a west exit that you individually have to type w enter in order to traverse)... other zones are full of things like enter tent or enter portal, ect.

People die easily and often, more often if parts of the group are afk.

Group limits are smaller, if you have 10 man groups losing efficiency / level of participation from one player has a bigger impact.

Most casting is targetted on the mobs while not assisted. This is mostly because single target spells are so much more powerful, partially because its not possible to have too many people "assisted" on a target (or to engage in melee when at the "back" of the group).

mobs whup tail. You have to be on your toes to avoid dieing often times. A single high level caster can easily outdamage a cleric healing causing more fights to have people sitting out for heals and memming out.

2. Max stat means a lot, especially to casters.

Having 30 or 40 maxint reduces your mem times like by half.

Dam roll from eq is "capped"... the main way to exceed it is by max strength

HPs from eq are "capped"... the main way to exceed it for melee AND CASTERS is max con.

3. Mining, Enchanting, Encrusting, Cargo

Very basic trade skills. Randomly in the world are "mines" that players can "mine" for ore that can be sold for significant sums of money.

Cargo is a system of ships and ports, buy low sell high.

Enchanting/Encrusting... mobs drop pieces of various things and gems that can be used to improve stats on items.

4. Potion levels

to advance from 50 to 51-56 you have to do special zones where you get "potions" that allow you to advance. Higher levels require potions from harder potions.

The interesting thing here is you MUST zone to reach maximum level... you can not just sit in an exp group and exp for 2 or 3 weeks. Also, everyone at certain levels have for sure done the certain "potion" zones required to achieve that level.

5. Epic points and "timed" equipment.

On the death of certain mobs, "Epic" stones appear. You touch the stone, you get a pre-determined amount of epic points (based on difficulty). Epic points are used to train epic skills which on duris are not class specific.... some examples of epic skills are: improved quick chant, innate called area spell.

The more important use of epic points is to "recharge" timed equipment. Timed equipment is basically artifacts/uniques on duris but could be applied to any "powerful" item. Basically timed items start with 120 hours and count down (even when your not online). When it reaches 0, the items "poofs" and is removed from the character. Touching epic stones "recharges" timed items. This creates a daily "need" to zone to maintain equipment, most zones only recharge a timed item by about 8 hours depending on the power of the item (on duris, artifact wielders really need to engage in PVP daily and successfully kill someone PVP every couple of days).

6. Equipment destruction and maintenance

Equipment can be destroyed when you die. EQ sink (dont think we should do this).

Equipment requires maintenance, it gets damaged and must be repaired for platinum at shops or it can break / lose effectiveness.

7. Mobs do damage fast, players do damage fast

Whats the point... the point is that when people are afk they may not be dealing damage as fast as when they are focused on the battle. On duris if your nukers are afk and not nuking, people start dieing... on toril, if the nukers are afk a dozen warrior mobs and several casters would need to walk in before anything got exciting. 1 to 2 adds can kill you on duris, everquest, wow, and any mmorpg ive ever played, on toril adds are common and expected.

-----------

I realize that most of the features of duris are designed for PvP, and might not make sense without pvp to balance them. However, I think some of the features could be adapted and might add interesting dynamics to the existing gameplay of toril. I'll probably thing of some more later, but time for bed now. enjoy.
Last edited by kiryan on Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thilindel
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:29 am

I had to play duris while I couldn't connect to Toril. What really got me was the selection of classes within each race, especially half-elf. Toril half-elf only offers three classes. Why?

The potion per lvl 51+ is scary cuz I never win bids :P What I can't ever understand is why Toril limits players to fail spells when having 100's % over lvl 50 and still 10th circle spell failure. That should end.

Totally apples vs. oranges when comparing Duris to Toril to me, as far as someone leaving one mud to the other saying that x is better than y. I don't like having logged on and being killed by some dickhead lvl 53 within 30 seconds. That's just not fun.

All I can say bring back monks!!! Ethermancers looked pretty damned fun too :P
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Postby dem » Thu Nov 24, 2005 10:05 am

One of Duris biggest downfalls is their unbalanced "potion" zones. The potion zones surprisingly enough also holds the best eq. Can anyone guess what happens to the zones that doesn't hold a potion? It gets done like twice in a year by some old fart that want's to go nostalgic.....
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Postby Ifin » Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:01 pm

I really like the idea of having smaller group sizes. Right now with 15 people in any zone, it really just rolls the zone, esp when every zone that I can think of can be done with... 10-12 people... cept maybe Magma (only reason cuz so tedious yawn) and ChP... but BC and IC2 can I'm sure which are supposed to be the other hardest zones in the game... probably even SPOB.

15 person limits aren't really all inclusive as the same people zone anyways... though it might mess up some classes like rangers or something since they are usually the last slot filled.

But positives, I can see it eliminating the AFK-ness for the reasons you mentioned, and maybe now instead of always filling to 15 there can be two zone groups going on at once which adds to the inclusiveness w/the pbase nowadays. But yeah I can think of a lot of benefits for reducing maximum group size.
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Postby Ambar » Thu Nov 24, 2005 5:46 pm

I like Epic points a LOT .. that idea just rocks

I wish we'd not fail spells after 101% past 50, I played a mud where lvl 51 was created, then 52, 53, etc. ( Duris' child and Sojourn's gandchild, Basternae). It was neat cause we got !fail 10th circle.

How bout meming in-room while not engaged (much like illithids do here).. I loved that feature, guess it had to be that way cause of pkill. I guess it'd be against game dynamics to implement on Toril. Would save a bit on mobs walking in while casters are memming out.

ROFL, Jegzed .. member the great Water Plane spank when goodies did water plane first and you guys ROCKED us at the exit? Hhaha!
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Postby kiryan » Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:35 pm

id say rather than make you !fail at 101% after 50, make it an "epic skill" that would require that you've done about 200, 1.5 hour zones.

Also, instead of "potioning" from say 47-50, we could just use epic points. 25 zones would allow you to buy level 47 if you have the exp, 50 to buy 48, 100 to buy 49, and 200 to buy level 50.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:47 am

Unfortunately, Duris is not Toril. Each individual character on Duris holds extreme amounts of power... you can solo there, and certain classes can do fairly challenging zones in groups of 2-4. It's been a while since I played, but I remember doing Conjurer-Necro-Cleric Jot in under two hours.

Toril is built on the foundation that nothing should be accomplished solo, that every nontrivial event on the MUD requires several players. So that's a conflict of interest right there.

Duris manages this power through racial innates, class skills, and equipment. Duris racial innates are like nothing on Toril. Innate reduce, with no str/con loss. 40% blanket magic resistance. The ability to convert resisted spells into memorized spells. Slot-casting for all undead spellcasters, similar to D&D Sorcerers. Unbashable Centaurs.

Class skills are just as powerful. Anti-Paladins' Hellfire lets them resist spells, and they regain some 50% of the damage they deal in hit points (and can vamp up to 200% of their max hit points). Necros get pets that can cast offensive spells as well as most Sorcerers. Warriors get not only double attack, but triple and quadruple attack. Illusionists can disguise themselves as players or mobs. Bards can sing group stone+globe, or group haste+5/5, or group flight, or group heal, or group DI that lasts for hours.

And the equipment is just sick. Max_stats are abundant and meaningful. I remember memming 12th circle spells in 2 seconds as a Gnome with 140 int. All of your old favorites are (or were, when I played) there... Frostbite with the called proc, ebony bladed longsword, the emerald longsword with haste. And all of that stuff is CRAP. Try an 8d4 8/8 two-handed weapon with a lifedrain proc. Try equipment that procs stoneskin on you every 60 seconds. Try a sword that procs cure light on you every time it hits something. Try equipment that gives you perm major globe. And then artifacts...

The reason all of this can exist on Duris is because you will not stay powerful forever. PvP and plooting means you'll eventually lose that killer set, even if it takes 5 players to ambush you. Your Stone Giant might have 1900 hit points with equipment and vit, but you can still be prismatic cubed into a room and killed before you can flee. And even if you're Tolm himself and manage to maintain 70 damroll and Avernus forever, they pwipe regularly to return to normal.

Bringing Duris to Toril simply wouldn't work. You can't give players that much power in a game with no way to take it back from them. You can't let players 2-man Jot when there's nothing to do but Jot. You can't allow players to amass 70 damroll and artifact weapons and let them stay that way forever. On Toril, it would be nothing more than an arms race. You'd get your godly statted equipment and sick racial innates, and then the gods would invent a zone ten times harder than Choking Palace to compensate, and you'd be right back to square one.

Leave Duris on Duris. Trying to integrate their way of doing things into Toril won't end in anything positive.
- Ragorn
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Postby Dalar » Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:34 am

Once again, Ragorn fails at reading comprehension!
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby dem » Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:01 am

I agree with you Ragorn.. Duris started panicing a couple of years ago and started trying to find some middle way to attract more people which resulted in ALOT of people leaving the mud instead....
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:20 pm

Dalar wrote:Once again, Ragorn fails at reading comprehension!


Once again, Dartan fails at applied logic!
- Ragorn
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Postby Dalar » Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:44 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Dalar wrote:Once again, Ragorn fails at reading comprehension!


Once again, Dartan fails at applied logic!


All you described was how overpowered Duris mortals are. All Kiryan did was apply the non-overpowered aspects of the game to bring back some longevity into Toril. I don't have to apply logic unless people don't get the point the 2nd time. Here ya go.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:37 pm

Dalar wrote:All you described was how overpowered Duris mortals are. All Kiryan did was apply the non-overpowered aspects of the game to bring back some longevity into Toril.


The reason you can't go afk in zones, according to you and Kiryan both, is that the potential to wipe at a moment's notice is much higher. Mobs are individually stronger, and that is possible because players are individually stronger. A single mob add can potentially ruin your day in a planar zone, but a skilled Conjurer can solo all of IC Vault. There's a balance there that you can't carry over to Toril without changing the fabric of the game.

Encrusting on Toril would be all but worthless, as every player would just wait until they have the very best gems before encrusting. On Duris, you encrust what you can get, because you never know whether today will be your last day with the gear you're wearing. On Toril, you're married to your armor. Cargo has no place on a MUD with no boats, and mining would be yet another influx of cash into a game without boats and guildhalls to take cash OUT.

Do you really want to talk about adding potion levels to Toril?

How likely is it that we'll see no-fail 10th circle, when a level 50 Ranger still drops his swords at least once a fight?

Given Shev's opinion of ress effect as it relates to necessary downtime, how likely is it to see 3 second mems?

Duris has made some very solid improvements to the Diku engine that Toril COULD benefit from. The two that spring to my mind is the very clear and concise size code, and the dynamic statistic system. Size code on Duris is very visible, and you always know at a glance what you can bash because size is based on the D&D Tiny-Small-Medium-Large-Huge system. Enlarge and reduce both play a vital role in combat strategy. And the stat system... Duris stats don't have notches, they're on a sliding scale. Add +2 con, see your hit points increase. Add +4 agi, watch your AC go down a few points. You don't have to fuck around with knowing what the second max_int notch is for a Yuan-ti, because every max_int item you put on helps you. That's nice.

The other stuff? Duris has had years to balance their mob/player interaction. Trying to drag their results onto a different MUD without years of testing would only cause disaster.

I don't have to apply logic unless people don't get the point the 2nd time. Here ya go.


Logic applied for your benefit, since you didn't get the point the first time.
- Ragorn
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Postby Dalar » Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:12 pm

You basically skipped out on 5, 6 and totally missed the point of 2 in the first post. Not only that, you began overcommenting and digressing from Kiryan's original points.

His whole point about maxstats is that there will be caps in dam/hit/hp so people are required to have maxstats to progress their character. This would allow a noticeable tier separation in items. Also, where did Kiryan say anything about increasing the power of racial innates?

Tradeskills are good if there's a plat-sink. I believe Kiryan suggested equipment durability.

As for your comment on potions.. Kiryan asked "do not talk about lack of immortal time, or how long it would take to implement a feature ect... don't talk about how its copying duris or any other game. "

Also, jot has been done with 4 people with artifacts. With an enchanter/cleric/bard/invoker I'm sure you can do 4 man jot again. Use a better example.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Dalar » Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:17 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Dalar wrote:All you described was how overpowered Duris mortals are. All Kiryan did was apply the non-overpowered aspects of the game to bring back some longevity into Toril.


The reason you can't go afk in zones, according to you and Kiryan both, is that the potential to wipe at a moment's notice is much higher. Mobs are individually stronger, and that is possible because players are individually stronger. A single mob add can potentially ruin your day in a planar zone, but a skilled Conjurer can solo all of IC Vault. There's a balance there that you can't carry over to Toril without changing the fabric of the game.

Encrusting on Toril would be all but worthless, as every player would just wait until they have the very best gems before encrusting. On Duris, you encrust what you can get, because you never know whether today will be your last day with the gear you're wearing. On Toril, you're married to your armor. Cargo has no place on a MUD with no boats, and mining would be yet another influx of cash into a game without boats and guildhalls to take cash OUT.

Do you really want to talk about adding potion levels to Toril?

How likely is it that we'll see no-fail 10th circle, when a level 50 Ranger still drops his swords at least once a fight?

Given Shev's opinion of ress effect as it relates to necessary downtime, how likely is it to see 3 second mems?

Duris has made some very solid improvements to the Diku engine that Toril COULD benefit from. The two that spring to my mind is the very clear and concise size code, and the dynamic statistic system. Size code on Duris is very visible, and you always know at a glance what you can bash because size is based on the D&D Tiny-Small-Medium-Large-Huge system. Enlarge and reduce both play a vital role in combat strategy. And the stat system... Duris stats don't have notches, they're on a sliding scale. Add +2 con, see your hit points increase. Add +4 agi, watch your AC go down a few points. You don't have to fuck around with knowing what the second max_int notch is for a Yuan-ti, because every max_int item you put on helps you. That's nice.

The other stuff? Duris has had years to balance their mob/player interaction. Trying to drag their results onto a different MUD without years of testing would only cause disaster.

I don't have to apply logic unless people don't get the point the 2nd time. Here ya go.


Logic applied for your benefit, since you didn't get the point the first time.


Oh yea, dragons. And there's stuff to buy like potions and poisons. Equipment durability would be good too.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:49 pm

Adding equipment durability is silly. It's silly on Duris, and it's silly here. I think boats are a great plat sink on Duris... I owned and sailed a few Dreadnaughts in my day, did tons of cargo. But equipment durability isn't a plat sink, it's a tedious addition that also happens to remove money from the game. What's the benefit to the player? Where's the fun? How would that addition make your time on Toril more enjoyable? In my eyes, it wouldn't.

I already addressed #5. Giving Toril players uber-powerful equipment without a way of taking it away from them won't work. Want to implement timed equipment? Ok, good, that's an idea. Don't use epic points, and don't let them recharge. Otherwise, there's no use in putting a timer on them at all, the items will never change hands.

Now if you want to combine these two ideas and create powerful equipment that degrades over time and cannot be repaired, then talk about that idea. That's something that might be worth discussing. Combined with rareload equipment drops, it might even make the lowbie and midlevel game more interesting. But I don't see that mentioned anywhere in the thread, I see equipment decay and epic equipment being addressed separately.

Want to cap +hp and make people accumulate max_con? Fine, do it. Instead of lusting over +70 hit point rings, you'll be lusting over +8 max_con rings. Everyone in the game will reach their hit point cap almost immediately (just like Duris), and any item without max_con will have less value than it does right now. Yeah, you'll create a new tier of item progression, but you can do that right now by regulating the amount of +hp on existing items. Again, the question is, why make this change? Yeah, it could work, but what's the benefit?

Also, jot has been done with 4 people with artifacts. With an enchanter/cleric/bard/invoker I'm sure you can do 4 man jot again. Use a better example.


Shrug, you see how Duris works, take your pick. I soloed Citadel and IC Vault with a Necro. Five-manning the elemental planes is trivial, or was. We did 3-man Jot with no artifacts, and an Anti-Paladin with Avernus or Mayhem/Chaos could probably solo it, given enough time. With a little luck, a 50 Thief could steal himself a 45 damroll set without leaving prime. That's part of what makes Duris fun for me... the fact that a Bard and Conjurer can clear out a pretty decent zone all by themselves at 5 in the morning, if they don't get scouted. On Toril, those same players sit at 1w, or they do DS for buffer experience.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:22 pm

Ragorn wrote:Adding equipment durability is silly. It's silly on Duris, and it's silly here. I think boats are a great plat sink on Duris... I owned and sailed a few Dreadnaughts in my day, did tons of cargo. But equipment durability isn't a plat sink, it's a tedious addition that also happens to remove money from the game. What's the benefit to the player? Where's the fun? How would that addition make your time on Toril more enjoyable? In my eyes, it wouldn't.


It wouldn't, but there needs to be some sort of plat-sink otherwise the economy is fucked. Ships and guildhalls would be nice, but then again, they do absolutely nothing for gameplay and are just eye candy.

Also, most of your equipment durability in Duris and in WoW occurs when you die. This is a huge penalty (believe it or not) because people have to repair their gear, which costs money. I know some people in WoW complain about repair costs as much as we complain about res effects. It's a good way to "punish" players and is a better way to detour death rather than wasting a fuckton of time in a zone.

Ragorn wrote:I already addressed #5. Giving Toril players uber-powerful equipment without a way of taking it away from them won't work. Want to implement timed equipment? Ok, good, that's an idea. Don't use epic points, and don't let them recharge. Otherwise, there's no use in putting a timer on them at all, the items will never change hands.

Now if you want to combine these two ideas and create powerful equipment that degrades over time and cannot be repaired, then talk about that idea. That's something that might be worth discussing. Combined with rareload equipment drops, it might even make the lowbie and midlevel game more interesting. But I don't see that mentioned anywhere in the thread, I see equipment decay and epic equipment being addressed separately.

What about having uniques/artis cost X amount of epic points a week to maintain, otherwise they poof. I was thinking epic points = prestige. To get X amount of uniques/artis, you have to be in a certain level of Prestige (10k for the first unique/arti, 20k for the 2nd one etc., 50k for the 3rd etc.) and cap the amount you can have. There's different ideas and ways you can do this and I won't bother in this thread.

Ragorn wrote:Want to cap +hp and make people accumulate max_con? Fine, do it. Instead of lusting over +70 hit point rings, you'll be lusting over +8 max_con rings. Everyone in the game will reach their hit point cap almost immediately (just like Duris), and any item without max_con will have less value than it does right now. Yeah, you'll create a new tier of item progression, but you can do that right now by regulating the amount of +hp on existing items. Again, the question is, why make this change? Yeah, it could work, but what's the benefit?

If you haven't noticed, almost every hp ring is similar in value but not in difficulty to get. You put in diversity in equipment with this kind of variety. When I received dragonkind, I had prot all on any set of gear I had for my mains. This opened up a ton of different combinations of gear I could wear while many people at the time were restricted to wearing a fireweed/earring of fire as one of their earrings full time.

Ragorn wrote:Shrug, you see how Duris works, take your pick. I soloed Citadel and IC Vault with a Necro. Five-manning the elemental planes is trivial, or was. We did 3-man Jot with no artifacts, and an Anti-Paladin with Avernus or Mayhem/Chaos could probably solo it, given enough time. With a little luck, a 50 Thief could steal himself a 45 damroll set without leaving prime. That's part of what makes Duris fun for me... the fact that a Bard and Conjurer can clear out a pretty decent zone all by themselves at 5 in the morning, if they don't get scouted. On Toril, those same players sit at 1w, or they do DS for buffer experience.


Nobody ever said increase player power to that extent, so quit talking about it.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Ragorn » Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:42 pm

Dalar wrote:It wouldn't, but there needs to be some sort of plat-sink otherwise the economy is fucked. Ships and guildhalls would be nice, but then again, they do absolutely nothing for gameplay and are just eye candy.


No, I agree with you here, one of the things everyone has always said is that we need a plat sink that isn't "100 plat stone potions." Boats in Duris are (were?) very useful, both for transport and for cargo. Boats were the primary means of building up enough plat to build a guildhall, which was a safe haven to store equipment and go afk. Yeah, on Toril again, they're probably less useful. But it's something.

Also, most of your equipment durability in Duris and in WoW occurs when you die. This is a huge penalty (believe it or not) because people have to repair their gear, which costs money. I know some people in WoW complain about repair costs as much as we complain about res effects. It's a good way to "punish" players and is a better way to detour death rather than wasting a fuckton of time in a zone.


2-3 random items poof when you died when I played, the rest of your equipment decay was gradual and mostly trivial. Again, not a mechanic we can bring over. And I've always found repair costs fairly trivial in WoW, but I've always had a Brinks truck full of gold anyway so throwing 4g down after a long MC raid isn't a big deal.

Ok, equipment decay as a deterrent, I can see that, maybe. But then instead of a time penalty for dying, you're talking about a plat penalty, and we've already established that plat is more or less useless. If the only purpose plat has in the game is to repair your equipment... again, why bother with any of it?

What about having uniques/artis cost X amount of epic points a week to maintain, otherwise they poof. I was thinking epic points = prestige. To get X amount of uniques/artis, you have to be in a certain level of Prestige (10k for the first unique/arti, 20k for the 2nd one etc., 50k for the 3rd etc.) and cap the amount you can have. There's different ideas and ways you can do this and I won't bother in this thread.


Toril has players (like Sarell) who are always active, always zoning. How would you make sure that these players don't become "black holes" for the best artifacts, keeping them and never letting go? Maybe increase the epic/prestige cost exponentially for every day/week the artifact is held, until the user finally has to let it go?

Hmm.

But then, didn't Shev say there would never be artifacts in the game again? Or was that Miax? Has Shev taken a contrary position?
- Ragorn
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Postby Dalar » Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:19 pm

Ragorn wrote:2-3 random items poof when you died when I played, the rest of your equipment decay was gradual and mostly trivial. Again, not a mechanic we can bring over. And I've always found repair costs fairly trivial in WoW, but I've always had a Brinks truck full of gold anyway so throwing 4g down after a long MC raid isn't a big deal.

I'm not saying destroy gear on death, I'm saying decrease its durability by a certain amount. If you die alot or are exploring new content, repair costs add up. Trust me, after a year of zoning, a ton of plat will be out of the game and people will begin needing plat if a system like this stays in. People need to hold onto their precious EQ!

Ok, equipment decay as a deterrent, I can see that, maybe. But then instead of a time penalty for dying, you're talking about a plat penalty, and we've already established that plat is more or less useless. If the only purpose plat has in the game is to repair your equipment... again, why bother with any of it?

Because there are other things you can do with plat which I don't bother discussing. Plat is not useless if you know the game and know where to spend it. Eventually after a ton of deaths, people will need plat to maintain their badass gear.

Toril has players (like Sarell) who are always active, always zoning. How would you make sure that these players don't become "black holes" for the best artifacts, keeping them and never letting go? Maybe increase the epic/prestige cost exponentially for every day/week the artifact is held, until the user finally has to let it go?

You can make it so everyone can have their own unique/artifact and have a wide variety of them. I'm not talking about the powerful artifacts/relics that people know from Toril. I'm talking about Tier 1 being strong items that are Tiamat worthy, Tier 2 being a little stronger, Tier 3 being a little stronger than that, etc.

You can also base it on religion and have people use prestige/epic points as "favors to their god". Then, if someone has done more points than Sarell this week, then can pray at a temple and yank the artifact from him.
Tons of ways to make the artifacts change hands or just have everyone have equal access to them and equal maintenance fees.

Hmm.

But then, didn't Shev say there would never be artifacts in the game again? Or was that Miax? Has Shev taken a contrary position?

Beats me
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby kiryan » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:17 pm

#1, implement features that reduce your abilty to be afk or to go afk in some zones.

Maybe we should eliminate the assist command period and then ban target calling triggers (to eliminate the easy botting of assist). If people are going to participate, MAKE THEM PLAY THE GAME.

#2, max stat

on toril they are basically useless because the max stat notches are so far apart and have such little effect. Rather than re-statting all max stat eq, i'd wish that something could be done to max +max stat have a much greater effect in smaller increments. you could add code that takes a +4 max_str and converts it to +8 max_str or adding half "notches" for half the notch effect.

Really the only two max notches worth trying to make are max agi for all and max con for warriors. Int and Wis notches are bragging rights and reduce your mem time by trivial amounts on Toril. Someone suggested it before, but why not give bonus effect on spells for having ++max_stat. Maybe having 140 maxint would give you a 40% bonus on damage spells (since the reduction in memtime is almost worthless). This would also create "competition" between level 50s of the same class. (realize instead of increasing over all power you could just turn down damage then add the effect to make up for the difference).

Any level 50 cleric can heal just as well as any other level 50 cleric. While the level playing field does put more emphasis on individual skill, it really creates one hell of a big plateau in character development. You can't do anyting to improve your effectiveness in your core job except stay alive longer.

#3, mining, enchanting, encrusting, cargo

In my mind, I see a big problem with new player progression in toril. Everything upon everything focuses around exp and zoning. In a lot of games you find players who use these types of "trade skills" in an economy to level the playing field or to compete with other players in a way that does not involve zoning, your level, or how bad ass your character's eq set is. If you suck at zoning, you can buy a twilight, and not necessarily from players (although thats probably ideal).

Just because plat is the only "money" today doesn't mean there couldn't be some sort of kingdom money with an expensive plat to kingdom money conversion. Just because plat is useless today, doesn't mean we can't devalue it if necessary to create a real economy.

#4, It is really too late for true "potion" levels since there is probably 700 level 50 chars. But realize potion levels don't have to be 50+, it could be 46-50.

Consider the dynamics if we were to implement potion levels 46-50...

1. can't exp to maximum level afk, you would have to do something not afk, not exp oriented to achieve maximum level.

2. Depending on how long it took to "potion" you could increase the time it takes to achieve maximum level WITHOUT increasing the amount of time you spend doing BORING exp.

3. You would more than likely be required to do SOME larger group zoning (rather than soloing to 50).

4. if some zones require chars to be maximum level (by difficulty), then it would create a need to help others achieve maximum level, which probably means doing lower end/non eq zones. (a need to zone that is not dependent on whether the zone has top tier eq that players still need... is seelie court still done often?)

Since everything is about eq, there really isnt any reason to do anything other than the high end zones.

#5, epic points and timed equipment

another huge challenge for toril is the person who is on all the time, but doesnt need to zone which turns into the person who doesnt want to zone unless there is something he needs. Epic points/skills create additional character advancement AND creates a stat to measure zone "time" / "contributions".

Timed equipment adds another dimension to equipment and more importantly, creates an urgent need to zone. I have to play duris pretty much daily to maintain my artifact and uniques. If Khanjari stopped procing for you if you didnt do at least 5 zones every 5 days, players with khanjari would have an urgent desire to zone on a semi daily basis. Also, if you scaled feeding (its much harder to feed/maintain 2 artifacts than 1 artifact on duris and 3 would be downright impossible) then you could implement some overpowered items while lessening the possibility of gross overpower over time.

Maybe feeding could also be done with large amounts of money.

Bottom line is reward people for doing zones they no longer need equipment from.

if some equipment could "poof" and be gone if some "maintenance" requirement is not met, it prevents you from taking extended absences from the mud... If I stop playing duris for more than 120 hours, I WILL LOSE ALL MY UNIQUES / ARTIFACTS. I hate being tied to duris like that, but uniques and artifacts on duris are truly sick power and to the power gamer thats one hell of a sharp hook you have in your mouth....

#6, equipment repair and destruction.

probably the weakest of the ideas, and we really cant have eq destruction on toril its like almost a founding principal... but, it would still add another dimension to the game and would no doubt make money more useful if equipment degraded and had to be repaired...

If all eq degraded over time and cost platinum to repair... you would be in a sense creating a "maintenance" feature to ALL equipment. Would you really want to have 5 Izan helms if it was costing you 100 plat each every couple weeks to use them? In lieu of destroying eq, just flag the eq as "junk" and grant no stats until repaired.

Maybe equipment that has worn down to "junk" status could "poof" if it wasnt "fixed" within a time period that was directly related to the EQ Calcr poitn value of the item (you take a 30 day absence from the mud and all your "crap" eq would be gone, but your nice pieces would still be there, take a 6 month absence and you'd only have some truly epic eq left, gone for a year and youd login naked).

Again the point would be that you have to be doing something to maintain your position in game even if its as trivial as running DS for an hour every 2 weeks to repair your equipment.


#7, Mobs do damage fast, players do damage fast

The thing about duris combat is that caster mobs on duris have front loaded damage, they do a tremendous amount of damage in the first 2 minutes of a fight then that damage tapers off (as their mana is depleted). The net effect is that when you fight, you need everyone at the keys. People are dropping nukes like mad and fleeing out to mem / wait for a heal. If your damage is AFK, you know it. If your healing is AFK you know it. This more or less ties into #1. Of course people die often also even if everyone is doing their job.

The point is, you got to be !afk or everyone knows and people die.

My favorite example is jot. If there is a good enchanter and displacer in the group, you can easily fight your way to brimirs without needing 1 full heal, maybe a regular heal every 4 or 5 fights. Sure jot is a low end zone these days, but if your going to participate in zoning, you should have to do something so you arent bored to tears.
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Postby kiryan » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:19 pm

oh and im sure as hell not saying duris is a better game or that we should copy duris.

we absolutely should consider the differences and how they affect game play.

and ragorn your just doing exactly what i feared would happen. coming up with every reason why every suggestion is impossible to implement on toril rather than focusing on how elements of each suggestion could possibly change game play for the better. I'm sure all of these ideas could be altered in such a way as to make it suitable for toril while preserving the "effect" they create.
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:58 pm

kiryan wrote:and ragorn your just doing exactly what i feared would happen. coming up with every reason why every suggestion is impossible to implement on toril rather than focusing on how elements of each suggestion could possibly change game play for the better. I'm sure all of these ideas could be altered in such a way as to make it suitable for toril while preserving the "effect" they create.


Well, you can't make a proposition and then tell people that they're only allowed to talk about what a wonderful idea it is. You're going about the process backwards. You're starting with ideas from Duris that you enjoy, and trying to figure out how they could be applied to problems on Toril. What you need to do is figure out what Toril's problems are, and then invent applicable ways to solve them. You're trying to pound a square peg into a round hole, and then asking people to discuss how we can make it fit.

The answer is: Throw away the square peg.

If you want to make plat valuable, or encourage people to zone, or fill out some of the old abandoned zones, then we can talk about solutions to those problems. But you're proposing the solutions and then trying to figure out what problems they solve.
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Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby Thilindel » Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:23 pm

Ragorn wrote:What you need to do is figure out what Toril's problems are, and then invent applicable ways to solve them. You're trying to pound a square peg into a round hole, and then asking people to discuss how we can make it fit.

The answer is: Throw away the square peg.



Or the answer is to keep posting how rangers suck, how resfx suck, how pretty decent ideas get posted but either admin are too busy to reply in saying they're good ideas, thus leaving frustration to the poster, etc...OR is it so wrong to do what human nature is and point out the obvious goodpoints of something for others to consider and reply to, which is the case. Duris was more fun to play EXCEPT the lurking dumbass notion that any doober can kill your ass and you can't even quit out of the game.

Take my cleric for example. XP's over and over and over. So many people on Toril are tired of xp'g at such a slow rate. It's beyond mindnumbing. On Duris, I was doing well enough it kept me motivated to xp even more and play in general. Kits and spell ideas are constantly brought up for Toril but usually admin, either too busy or just ignoring, don't get to reply. It's not a slam nor an attempt to towards admin, just when I've seen Stamm, Kiry, Teflor, Pril, Kanenan (who quit from lack of admin response, despite TONS of player replies)..I could go on and on. That's just for RANGER ideas and people saying "hey, dammit, this class NEEDS ATTENTION"

Absolutism I guess is what is needed. Some admin to say 'look guys, rangers aren't gonna be changed, now stfu' Too bad there's no icon for beating your head against the wall but some posts lead good ideas and good players needing it!

Another example is Dalar pointed out room silence is innate darkness. Then there's the logic that when you have blindness cast upon you, you can still cast. Now what the hell is that? So innate darkness is a kick in the nuts, so you only see stars, whereas 'blindness' spell is merely a mime break dancing but still gets spells out?

Eh, I guess I sound like I'm unhappy with Toril and I hope I don't come accross that way. Lots of good coders, personalities here . . The pbase is not recouping at all like we hoped so _something_ needs to be done to drive attention. I don't see how kits, class re-evals, etc aren't what's needed. What blows my mind is the chronic struggle for balance. Khanjari comes to mind. Sorry for the rant!
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:00 pm

Duris and Toril both have problems. Toril has a tendency to move too slowly, to take too long to address problems, and to present silence from the gods except on extremely rare circumstances. Duris is the opposite... change is fast and furious, and your dominating level 50 character can be nerfed into silent oblivion on a whim.

The game is what it is. Rangers have always sucked, and I feel it in my gut that they will continue to be nicheless drifters until the registration on torilmud.dyndns.org finally expires. The admin response time is just as unlikely to change. I know, because I have personally tried to prompt changes using every trick in the book, and some that aren't. In the end, the rusty gears of Toril continue to grind away at their own pace. The wheels turn at the same speed whether you push them or not.

A long time ago, when I had more hair and fewer responsibilities, I used to get very emotional about it. I wrote a teary goodbye post, the last of several, and retired my character. I didn't think I'd make it a week without Toril, but I did. And a week turned into five years just as easily. I've been around the internet since then, played Duris and Basternae, reached max level in 2 different MMORPGs and reached "high" level in 3 more. I've dipped my toe into the game design industry and found the water too cold for me. Got married, graduated college, found a job. And Toril has survived during all of this, without me.

Toril has its problems, problems it may never solve. But it's also blessed with a playerbase willing to tolerate those faults. So do what you want to do... make suggestions, draw up grand and complex plans, put forth propositions... or get frustrated and quit. Toril will always be Toril. Tinkering with it too much might just alienate those last few players willing to hang on. And that would really spell death for our little MUD.
- Ragorn
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Postby kiryan » Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:23 pm

First, I'm not presenting this stuff and saying hey only say good things about it. I presented it and tried to say, hey don't get caught up in the details look at the concept and the effect on game play. Details can be modified to fit Toril, its the consensus on the concept / need / problem that is critical to agree on.

and yes i certainly did put the horse before the cart in semi-bringing up solutions without first presenting the problems, however, it was a late night post while i was on vacation at my parents house and i really didnt feel like making 6 different threads to discuss the details of every single feature.

however, although the presentation is less than ideal, I daresay the method is fine. Looking at features from other games could definitely highlight problems of implementation or design in our game. What "feature" in any game exists for no purpose? The features I choose to mention highlight possible deficiencies in toril.

Why does every game except toril have tradeskills? What "need" "niche" or "entertainment" value do they provide? Does toril have the same needs? Why does equipment degrade and get destroyed on duris? Why are there epic points and potion levels? Why are there low stat caps on things like HP/hit/dam and max_stat eq to surpass those caps? Why does maxint and maxwis decrease your memtimes in half on duris while they reduce maybe 1 second from a 30 second mem on toril? All of these things were done for a purpose to either fix a flaw or to add dynamic to the game and we should look at each one and see if we have the same flaw or lack the dynamic.

I'm trying to look at and describe what the actual affects of each of these features is on duris to encourage discussion. Our game is amazing where its been developed over 10 years, but for one reason or another (possibly discussed and summarily rejected by the forgers) we haven't done much outside of our core game... the high end zone and class/race/pve balance.
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:12 pm

Toril and Duris are two beasts which evolved from the same ancestor. They're two branches of the same tree that have grown in entirely different directions. To understand the purpose of a game mechanic on Duris, you have to look at how it fits into their game.

Take Encrusting for example. Look at the history of the skill.

Encrusting is (was?) a level 51 skill from the Alchemist class, and was added after the class was originally implemented. The Alchemist class is a nuker who mixes potions and throws them in combat. The advantage of the class is that their potion-nukes are identical to sorcerer spells, but Alchemists can throw as many potions as they can carry without rememming. Their potion throws are front-loaded (damage then lag, as opposed to casting time and then damage), and thus harder to interrupt with bashing.

The disadvantage of the class was a very small number of available potions (only 2-3 per spell circle), a lot of downtime harvesting reagents to mix, and a severe drop in power at level 51+. The gods decided to give Alchemists the ability to throw bigby's fist potions (bigby's is the staple nuke on Duris, their force missiles), but decided that bigby's clenched hand potions would be TOO strong. So they didn't give Alchemists ANYTHING at 51 originally. Two months into their first wipe, Alchemists were crying that they could only throw fists in a game dominated by crushing hands and novas.

So the gods invented encrusting. They devised a system of random item drops, including valuable gems which could be "encrusted" onto an existing weapon in order to buff its stats. Alchemists were given the encrusting ability at level 51, to provide them with a way to participate in the endgame. It was a band-aid fix... Alchemists were still underpowered in combat, and each guild only really needed one Alchemist alt to encrust the gems they found.

So, with that history in mind, how would you apply encrusting to Toril? This code was originally designed to improve the late-game life of an unfinished class. You would propose to use encrusting as a way to... what? Restore interest in abandoned zones? Encourage people to log on more? Yeah, we could probably bend and tailor the idea of encrusting to have some positive effect on Toril, but there are much more comprehensive and engaging ways to encourage people to zone.

It's a lovely cart, but it would look so much better BEHIND the horse ;)
- Ragorn
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Postby kiryan » Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:29 am

Ragorn. Even if you focus specifically on why a select feature was implemented, rather than the erffect on game play, I can still easily modify it to fit toril.

here goes

if the feature was added specifically to help out one class that was not powerful enough to compete you can do two things.

1. give it to a toril class that is in the same position as alchemists were, too weak relative to other classes.

2. give it to everyone.

this is a perfect example of why you should drop all your preconceptions and look at the EFFECT on game play rather than come up with reasons why its impossible to implement.

There are so many benefits to adding something like encrusting the two most forefront of which are

1. a new activity players can engage in other than exping and zoning.

2. a way to customize eq sets and to add more variety in eq sets.

If you make encrustinge items drop off mobs, then you have additional benefits incudling:

1. more zone rewards that translate into more zoning.

2. addition of "services" and "encrusting items" to the economy.
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:20 pm

Here is the effect encrusting would have on Toril:

Nobody would encrust any of their "real" equipment until they zoned for the best possible gem of the type they want. Nobody would ruin their equipment by encrusting a lesser gem into it.

There are no "new players," so all those low-level characters you see would just be wearing upper level gear encrusted with upper level gems. Low-level gems would be funnelled to your level 50 charcater of choice to practice the encrusting skill. If everyone could encrust, there would be no economy save the paltry trade of "practice gems."

If gems are randomly dropped, they will have no effect on zoning, because variable rewards won't motivate people. If gems are distributed as drops on zone bosses, then those zones will experience a temporary increase in activity until everyone farms the specific gems they want, and then activity will taper off again.

Equipment would gain power in ways currently unforeseen, making characters more powerful and in turn making zones currently available eaiser.

Those are the effects you would see. Certainly there are positives, like increased zone activity while people farm gems. Ultimately, if your goal is to get more people motivated to do zones, then adding encrusting as a solution is only a short-term band aid that doesn't really solve the problem while introducing unwanted side effects. Square peg. Round hole. Encrusting is a nifty idea in theory, but applying it to Toril doesn't solve any of the problems currently facing the MUD.
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:59 pm

Ragorn wrote:But then, didn't Shev say there would never be artifacts in the game again? Or was that Miax? Has Shev taken a contrary position?


I believe that was Miax.

We will *never* have an artifact/relic/unique system like the old Toril did, whereby specific groups are targetted for god-run quests to receive a super-powerful artifact.

That does not, however, preclude us from implementing some new kind of artifact/unique item system. Such a system has not, as of yet, been decided on one way or the other tby the Toril staff.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:00 pm

Just make the gems have durability or make it so the gems break randomly on death or something. This game is all about maxing and I wouldn't be surprised if people don't want to do some higher tier zones because they will wait for Tiamat gear.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Ragorn » Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:52 pm

Shevarash wrote:I believe that was Miax.

We will *never* have an artifact/relic/unique system like the old Toril did, whereby specific groups are targetted for god-run quests to receive a super-powerful artifact.

That does not, however, preclude us from implementing some new kind of artifact/unique item system. Such a system has not, as of yet, been decided on one way or the other tby the Toril staff.


Thanks, Shev. It's always good to have an answer, even when the answer is "I have no fucking idea" :)

Just make the gems have durability or make it so the gems break randomly on death or something. This game is all about maxing and I wouldn't be surprised if people don't want to do some higher tier zones because they will wait for Tiamat gear.


Wouldn't that discourage people from using their "best" gear for runs like Tiamat, where death is frequent and plentiful?
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Postby Lilira » Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:24 pm

Ragorn:

Wouldn't not using your best gear just make it last longer and people die more frequently??
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:57 pm

Lilira wrote:Ragorn:

Wouldn't not using your best gear just make it last longer and people die more frequently??


If you fuck up and drag us into a room full of aggros, and I die and my helmet breaks, are you going to reimburse me?

If you ask for my help with a zone that I don't need anything from, why should I risk my best equipment to help you?

These are the questions that having randomly breakable equipment would raise.
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Postby Vaprak » Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:12 pm

I believe the best feature of duris was centaurs and their bodily excretions, of which they had no control.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:50 am

Vaprak wrote:I believe the best feature of duris was centaurs and their bodily excretions, of which they had no control.


so gaggable tho .. rofl i hated that!
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Postby Dalar » Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:36 pm

Ambar wrote:
Vaprak wrote:I believe the best feature of duris was centaurs and their bodily excretions, of which they had no control.


so gaggable tho .. rofl i hated that!

or you hide them
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby kiryan » Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:31 pm

Your lack of vision and creativity is astounding if you can't find simple answers to your alleged show stoppers.

Ragorn wrote:Nobody would encrust any of their "real" equipment until they zoned for the best possible gem of the type they want. Nobody would ruin their equipment by encrusting a lesser gem into it.


Add a skill that allows you to remove an encrusting and recover the component. Make the rarity in encrusted item more dependent on the skill and less on the material (ie make all encrusting items common). Make encrustments more of socketable gems that you can move around depending on your needs. I'm not advocating ny of these, but they could easily address the theoretical issue you propose.
Ragorn wrote:There are no "new players," so all those low-level characters you see would just be wearing upper level gear encrusted with upper level gems. Low-level gems would be funnelled to your level 50 charcater of choice to practice the encrusting skill. If everyone could encrust, there would be no economy save the paltry trade of "practice gems."


The basis of an economy is the transfer of goods or services. You want encrusting materials funneled to whomever is willing to pay for them. Thats a plus for economy no matter how you look at it. And I fully disagree with your assessment that if everyone can encrust it would be worse for the economy, if only 1 class could encrust then zone groups will just give all the encrusting items to that person, or to the guild encruster, or whatever. Its the fact that everyone CAN use the items that would provide the foundation for an economy. You'd be surprised at how many people would hoard items and waste 10k play to level their encrusting skill to something relatively poor (say 50 out of 200) with no realistic plan on how to get from 51-200. Its like they don't even think they just sit around and "waste" their time just to do it.

On Everquest, any level 20 can farm "pelts" used in tailoring, but its more time effective to buy them by the time your 50. Also depending on your design/vision for encrusting, you may want people to be able to solo their skill to maximum level if it takes them 1000 hours to do so, or you may want them to be able to max skill after investing the equivalent of 100,000 plat (whether thats from buying them from other chars or some sort of plat sink component cost), or you may want to make it a group oriented activity as the result of zone splits. You certainly aren't tied to any specific approach, it just depends on how you want to implement them.

Another interseting dynamic from everquest, where I used to EXP was often dependent on where tradeskill xyz items dropped for level range x-y. So you situatiuons where you go out and do faeries from 10-15 so you can get faerie wings for getting a skill to 20, then you go and do gnolls for a few levels to get your skill from 20-25, then goblins so you can get the skill to 50... Instead of just sitting in SSC, BGR, IC, DS, SMOKE all day every day to 50.

Ragorn wrote:If gems are randomly dropped, they will have no effect on zoning, because variable rewards won't motivate people. If gems are distributed as drops on zone bosses, then those zones will experience a temporary increase in activity until everyone farms the specific gems they want, and then activity will taper off again.


First of all, it doesn't need to be a something tha makes a 15 man, tier 1, zone group ooh and ah. It could be something aimed more at the 5-8 man zone group.. or it could be for the 15 man zone group. remember when kuo-toa was considered a zone worthy of doing (5 man haste cloak)?. and secondly, random rewards do motivate people, and even cheesy tradeskill drops can be a strong motivation to the right person. Nearly every high end zone today has variable rewards from a set.

And "farming" is just a negative way of saying doing a zone over and over which is what we do to every zone. 1 year ago we farmed seelie, 4 years ago we farmed jot, this past summer we farmed BC, last couple months we been farming SPOB... ZONING IS FARMING, so if you do add new encrusting drops to some old zones, your still encouraging people to zone more, if you put them on low end zones, your giving scrub groups who can't handle top tier zones ability to win EQ that elites might want to buy or trade for (heres the economy again). It doesn't FIX any repetitive issues or zone issues, but neither does the next new zone, it just adds more variety and content. Is the actual impact really any different from adding a new zone?

Another interesting thing to note from Everquest is that people get together and sit in high level zones and kill the mobs over and over and over for rareload "drops" like encursting items... of course you can nearly endlessly "spend" exp so they aren't their just for drops, but we still dont have a dynamic like this except for the very few mobs that rareload eq on pop (airship 200 page book for one). We go to a zone, race to the finish and leave.

Encursting drops might be just the thing something like jot would need for us to start seeing "jot exp" groups again.. the exp may not be as good, safe, and consistent as DS, but it could be more rewarding in the long run. Also, you might see level 50s with hundreds of percent of exp actually interested in joining an exp group if they are exping in a zone where he wants drops... A "new" reason to be active and doing something... even if its completely botted (which is still illegal) instead of truly active your creating more player to player interaction. Also, new players might find it much easier to recruit people for exp since even 50s with 1000% might still want encrusting drops.

Ragorn wrote:Equipment would gain power in ways currently unforeseen, making characters more powerful and in turn making zones currently available eaiser.


Have you seen tiamat gear? have you seen gear the new quests are turning out? The EQ calcr supposedly makes it possible for a piece of eq to have ungodly stats if you can sink enough points into it. Wasn't that the point of the eq calcr? But back to the point... what does it matter if someone gets a suit of brigadine plate and after investing an appropriate amount of his resources (encrusting items, plat, time whatever) turns it into the equivalent of Green Dragonscale Armor? Wouldn't it be cool if people could customize their eq so not everyone is wearing hte same damn kit or has the same exact stats?

Also, if you want to argue about how encrusting will escalate the game, why not just code encrusting to prevent it from creating stats better than the best eq in game? Then I suppose you'll say but itll still be escalating it because more people will have it, ok well make the drops rarer or the failure rates higher. Encrusting DOES NOT have to escalate eq, but I'd argue that its perfectly fine for it to do so.

Escalation is what drives zones, what drives toril today. We abandoned the path of ultimate balance with the eq calcr in favor of a formula of vanishing returns. You can make a 100 hp ring with the eq calcr if you have enough "points" it just might require 50 times more effort than an 75 hp ring. Escalation is a lot of what keeps Toril going today, just when you get a pair of giantkinds, your tank has to have decaying flowers, you get those and izans pops out with the nickel plated battle ring. In my expereince, its the people at the bleedinge edge who have exhausted all the content and gotten every uber item they want that quit. They log on daily and find nothing they want or nothing to do and eventually quit.

Ragorn wrote:Those are the effects you would see. Certainly there are positives, like increased zone activity while people farm gems. Ultimately, if your goal is to get more people motivated to do zones, then adding encrusting as a solution is only a short-term band aid that doesn't really solve the problem while introducing unwanted side effects. Square peg. Round hole. Encrusting is a nifty idea in theory, but applying it to Toril doesn't solve any of the problems currently facing the MUD.


As far as encrusting being a "lack of zone interest" bandaid, isn't that what every new zone is? Just another bandaid to keep the players entertained / farming / questing for a couple more months until you can get the next new zone out? We need to give the game more dimension, give the player more different things to do, and while encrusting is certainly not the end all be all, it could certainly be another new feature that people find entertaining for a while that might take away from the monotony of zoning the tier 1 zones everyday for eq.

A short term solution, a bandaid. No one thing is going to "fix" toril. There is no "root" problem that I can perceive except theres little reason to play after you exhaust all the content. And you have yet to come up with a substantial "side effect" that can not be worked around by varying the implementation of something like encrusting. Your like You're either too trapped in the specifics of duris' implementation or too close minded to come up with a workable solution. If you design and code it, I'm pretty damn sure you can address any unallowable "side effects" you want/have identified.

This is again why we shouldn't get into details in this thread, just agree or disagree in principle. Assume there is going to be "balance" between the skill and the rest of the game and answer the question. Is encrusting as a trade skill, with components, that would allow you to customize eq a good idea, or a bad one.

If you think its a bad idea, say why. For example, you could say encrusting is a bad idea because it creates another way to acquire eq ther than zoning or questing. then explain why questing and zoning should be the only way to get eq.


Quit trying to prove how some idea is impossible to implement on toril when no one has detailed the specifics of how it should be implemented. Here you are putting the cart before the horse in a way far more gregarious than I.
Gizep
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Postby Gizep » Sun Dec 04, 2005 2:38 pm

Well, i'm not one to say copy duris or everquest but it does bring up a vaild point. Advancing your character beyond level 50 without raising the level cap, without remort, and beyond what you do with gear.

I like the idea of alternate advancement available in everquest, i'm not saying copy it, but think about implementing some way to advance your character. This may spawn less alt creation and more exping as main character just to build these abilities up.

For those un familliar with the everquest system, let me lay it out simply as possible.

In my signature is my main everquest character for reference, click the AA link within it for skill names, explanations are a little harder but alot are self explanitory.

A point should be equivalent to 100 percent exp within level 50.

Ideas for acceptable abilites imo here...

Advanced Strength/Constitution/Charisma etc....
Each point would raise your base stat by 1 with a max of 10 points in each.

Save vs Spells points, max of 5 each.

Origin - Cost 10 points usable 1 time per week, return to your guildmaster.

Just some ideas. The only thing I don't like about it, it's not Forgotten Realms or even D & D.
As long as we live in this world we are bound to encounter problems. If, at such times, we lose hope and become discouraged, we diminish our ability to face difficulties. If, on the other hand, we remember that it is not just ourselves but everyone who has to undergo suffering, this more realistic perspective will increase our determination and capacity to overcome troubles.
-- The Dali Lama

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