Can this please be addressed? I haven't kept track, but I can say with confidence that 75% of my last 50 deaths have been a direct result of failing flee 2, 3, 4 times in a row. There have been instances where it's been 6 or 7.
As my reputation would state, I'm quite familiar with dying. I just don't like dying from things that I should be able to control, like running from a fight. A certain amount of failure should be tolerable, but I think it might be a bit out of control right now. Any chance this could be adjusted a bit, based on constitution or something?
Flee Failures
Flee Failures
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Why Nerox is jealous of me:
Nerox tells you 'man this thing is kicking my ass and i have blisters!'
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Why Nerox is jealous of me:
Nerox tells you 'man this thing is kicking my ass and i have blisters!'
Nerox tells you 'ok attempting it again put tape on my fingers for easier sliding'
I'd actually like to see fixes like this that have infinite posts griping about them over a large project. How many posts have there been about losing concentration on highest circle or flee/search attempts? It's the chronic stuff you always encounter on the mud that would be higher on the enjoyment and prevents enjoyment when it fails, imho.
My only gripe with flee is that you cant flee into portals. Why not? If I was locked in a room with a big bad mad n ugly, I dont think I would hestitate leaping in panic thru a gaping wide magical door.
Just code it so there is an equal percent chance of hopping any portal as well as any open exit.. makes sense.
Just code it so there is an equal percent chance of hopping any portal as well as any open exit.. makes sense.
daggaz wrote:My only gripe with flee is that you cant flee into portals. Why not? If I was locked in a room with a big bad mad n ugly, I dont think I would hestitate leaping in panic thru a gaping wide magical door.
Just code it so there is an equal percent chance of hopping any portal as well as any open exit.. makes sense.
Guess the definition of 'flee' is relative. My version is how escape works. I've had TONS of fights irl. I know where the hell I'm going and what's going on. The mud's version of flee is how I'd envision a child on a roller coaster who just wants off and doesn't understand consequence of getting off while it's moving. As far as a PANIC type flee, that downright falls into a dragon roar - bolting away from something out of uncontrolled panic.
I don't understand why rogue/bard are the only ones who can escape in the first place. When I was wrestling @ 189 weight class, I got slammed HARD and despite literally being stunned, I knew which way was up, and I was aware the dude was trying to put me in a grapevine. Given that, I just don't agree with how the current flee system works.
I think warriors should be able to use the retreat command as a skill while tanking like escape for rogues but with a bit of lag associated.
Arishae group-says 'mah sunray brings all the boys to the yard'
Shadow Scream
Shadow Scream
That would be cool, but I would expect the attacking mob to follow you right in unless it was seriously wounded or decided to spell up instead...
Which would then allow for all kinds of twinks..
..and would remove a huge risk from what to do after you have walked into a room of aggros and fleeing is a chancy busines...
Which would then allow for all kinds of twinks..
..and would remove a huge risk from what to do after you have walked into a room of aggros and fleeing is a chancy busines...
I think its funny so many people wanna constantly get rid of any and all semblance of risk in this game. The chance of fleeing into a portal would be cool, for good or bad, imho.
The risk of failing flee altogether is also a good part of the game, i think. I can even understand why, after failing once, you might panic and screw up further attempts... tho to be entirely honest, it doesn't happen to me all that often. (you roll bad dex or something? tho it outta be agility)
The risk of choking on my tenth circle dragonscales in the middle of a fight is also something i appreciate, and does add a bit of heart-thumping-hey-you-better-pay-attention-action to battles. It happens. sometimes in runs too, which can be devastating, but overall not *that* much.
There are plenty of other examples on the bbs, like 'why can't we stack buffs instead of waiting for them to fall' or 'how come i can fail search or why do I even have to search' or 'how come feeblemind doesnt permanently lobotomize, castrate, do 500 hps damage to, and put a mob in perm magic sleep' etc.. (ok i embellished that last one a tad), all of which thankfully the gods have chosen to complete ignore.
Removing these risks would make players way overpowered and make the game. .. ...incredibly boring. We steamroll zones well enough as it is, I dont think we need any more reasons to go afk.
The risk of failing flee altogether is also a good part of the game, i think. I can even understand why, after failing once, you might panic and screw up further attempts... tho to be entirely honest, it doesn't happen to me all that often. (you roll bad dex or something? tho it outta be agility)
The risk of choking on my tenth circle dragonscales in the middle of a fight is also something i appreciate, and does add a bit of heart-thumping-hey-you-better-pay-attention-action to battles. It happens. sometimes in runs too, which can be devastating, but overall not *that* much.
There are plenty of other examples on the bbs, like 'why can't we stack buffs instead of waiting for them to fall' or 'how come i can fail search or why do I even have to search' or 'how come feeblemind doesnt permanently lobotomize, castrate, do 500 hps damage to, and put a mob in perm magic sleep' etc.. (ok i embellished that last one a tad), all of which thankfully the gods have chosen to complete ignore.
Removing these risks would make players way overpowered and make the game. .. ...incredibly boring. We steamroll zones well enough as it is, I dont think we need any more reasons to go afk.
Oh and as to RL examples...
Have you ever had to run, *for your life*, in a surprising moment of panic when you were attacked by something that *actually wanted to kill you?*
Wrestling and street fights are one thing (done my share), but the game is trying to represent something entirely different. I was once attacked, in the dead of night, by a full grown californina brown bear. (no BS). It surprised me in the dark, stood up and roared me. Not only did I panic, I failed flee entirely and was completely paralyzed, fallling backwards on my ass and unable to even breathe. Basically it could have eaten me alive and Im just lucky it decided not to.
People run out into traffic, jump off of buildings, and generally kill themselves in all kinds of ways every day fleeing frightening and hazardous situations. Hell, they even trample other people to death in their panic to get away.
Want to reduce this situation in-game? Roll good tank stats, wear ac, and be a better physical fighter. You have lower chance of failing flee, and better chance of surviving if you do. Yasden forgets to mention he was a pudgy out-of-shape druid wearing 10lbs of glass beads and assorted trinkets, and was left alone in a room of one (or two?) patrols of high level warrior orcs. Maybe they surrounded him and played kickball... who knows?
Have you ever had to run, *for your life*, in a surprising moment of panic when you were attacked by something that *actually wanted to kill you?*
Wrestling and street fights are one thing (done my share), but the game is trying to represent something entirely different. I was once attacked, in the dead of night, by a full grown californina brown bear. (no BS). It surprised me in the dark, stood up and roared me. Not only did I panic, I failed flee entirely and was completely paralyzed, fallling backwards on my ass and unable to even breathe. Basically it could have eaten me alive and Im just lucky it decided not to.
People run out into traffic, jump off of buildings, and generally kill themselves in all kinds of ways every day fleeing frightening and hazardous situations. Hell, they even trample other people to death in their panic to get away.
Want to reduce this situation in-game? Roll good tank stats, wear ac, and be a better physical fighter. You have lower chance of failing flee, and better chance of surviving if you do. Yasden forgets to mention he was a pudgy out-of-shape druid wearing 10lbs of glass beads and assorted trinkets, and was left alone in a room of one (or two?) patrols of high level warrior orcs. Maybe they surrounded him and played kickball... who knows?
daggaz wrote: I think its funny so many people wanna constantly get rid of any and all semblance of risk in this game. The chance of fleeing into a portal would be cool, for good or bad, imho
When someone adds 'Hey, let's make flee fail' for no reason, then that's not adding to a game (back when Sojourn and other muds were created) - It's adding some stupid random factor.
daggaz wrote: The risk of choking on my tenth circle dragonscales in the middle of a fight is also something i appreciate, and does add a bit of heart-thumping-hey-you-better-pay-attention-action to battles.
How is making DUMB luck beneficial to the game? It's this type dumb luck that pisses me off so much. So many posts about it. ONE failed scales CAN cause 15 people to sit on their asses for half an hour or more due to spank. Gee, what 'luck.' They could just as well make spells fail % more often between the hours of 2 and 3 a.m., given it IS purely random. And a factor big mobs don't deal with since they are Lvl 51+ If you watch fights, sure there are 'lucky' shots, but you never see a guy try to throw a punch and just stumbles, then saying 'aw dammit, now I have to go back to the corner for some quick coaching.'
daggaz wrote: Have you ever had to run, *for your life*, in a surprising moment of panic when you were attacked by something that *actually wanted to kill you?*
Yes. I've been chased down 2 separate times when living in Chicago by some gangsta fags who were literally shooting at me. I wasn't so panicky that I busted into someone's house to escape. Even when being fired upon I knew what was gonna get my ass kicked. You burst into someone's house and said houseowner hears shots fired, you KNOW owner's gonna pound your ass or shoot you w/o prejudice. The true fallacy in your argument is that for warriors, etc fighting to the death is daily protocol.
daggaz wrote: Not only did I panic, I failed flee entirely and was completely paralyzed, fallling backwards on my ass and unable to even breathe. Basically it could have eaten me alive and Im just lucky it decided not to.
This particular episode wasn't due to your thoughts, basically. You were being driven by primordial instinct than anything else. When you are awoken, your mind is toast. Thus 'waking up' etc hasn't cleared your mind. Your freezing was the typical deer in the headlights situation. You failed your surprise skill check! Glad your ok from that, but in a fighting situation, this type surprise isn't applicable unless you had a burglar break into your house and wake you up with a light in your face, etc. That'd be freaky just the same.
I can see flee failing a little, but as it is, when there are rooms with four (and even some rooms with six) exits and you just fail like 7x in a row. STUPID.
Thilindel wrote:daggaz wrote: I think its funny so many people wanna constantly get rid of any and all semblance of risk in this game. The chance of fleeing into a portal would be cool, for good or bad, imho
When someone adds 'Hey, let's make flee fail' for no reason, then that's not adding to a game (back when Sojourn and other muds were created) - It's adding some stupid random factor.daggaz wrote: The risk of choking on my tenth circle dragonscales in the middle of a fight is also something i appreciate, and does add a bit of heart-thumping-hey-you-better-pay-attention-action to battles.
How is making DUMB luck beneficial to the game? It's this type dumb luck that pisses me off so much. So many posts about it. ONE failed scales CAN cause 15 people to sit on their asses for half an hour or more due to spank. Gee, what 'luck.' They could just as well make spells fail % more often between the hours of 2 and 3 a.m., given it IS purely random. And a factor big mobs don't deal with since they are Lvl 51+ If you watch fights, sure there are 'lucky' shots, but you never see a guy try to throw a punch and just stumbles, then saying 'aw dammit, now I have to go back to the corner for some quick coaching.'daggaz wrote: Have you ever had to run, *for your life*, in a surprising moment of panic when you were attacked by something that *actually wanted to kill you?*
Yes. I've been chased down 2 separate times when living in Chicago by some gangsta fags who were literally shooting at me. I wasn't so panicky that I busted into someone's house to escape. Even when being fired upon I knew what was gonna get my ass kicked. You burst into someone's house and said houseowner hears shots fired, you KNOW owner's gonna pound your ass or shoot you w/o prejudice. The true fallacy in your argument is that for warriors, etc fighting to the death is daily protocol.daggaz wrote: Not only did I panic, I failed flee entirely and was completely paralyzed, fallling backwards on my ass and unable to even breathe. Basically it could have eaten me alive and Im just lucky it decided not to.
This particular episode wasn't due to your thoughts, basically. You were being driven by primordial instinct than anything else. When you are awoken, your mind is toast. Thus 'waking up' etc hasn't cleared your mind. Your freezing was the typical deer in the headlights situation. You failed your surprise skill check! Glad your ok from that, but in a fighting situation, this type surprise isn't applicable unless you had a burglar break into your house and wake you up with a light in your face, etc. That'd be freaky just the same.
I can see flee failing a little, but as it is, when there are rooms with four (and even some rooms with six) exits and you just fail like 7x in a row. STUPID.
Uh......wow.
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// Post Count +1
// Post Count +1
Its not dumb luck, its BAD luck. It means its possible to fail, you might die, you arent always going to win the lottery.
It benefits the game by adding elements of risk, thus making it harder and more challenging.
It doesn't always happen (do you fail flee all the time, or stutter 10th circle that often?), and like I said, there are ways around much of it, if you are willing to do what it takes (in this case, give up 'zone eq' for survival eq or pay more attention when scaling groups etc..).
Yeah, one failed scale can suck for a group, but most of the time its still survivable if you are on your toes. I like to keep on my toes.
It benefits the game by adding elements of risk, thus making it harder and more challenging.
It doesn't always happen (do you fail flee all the time, or stutter 10th circle that often?), and like I said, there are ways around much of it, if you are willing to do what it takes (in this case, give up 'zone eq' for survival eq or pay more attention when scaling groups etc..).
Yeah, one failed scale can suck for a group, but most of the time its still survivable if you are on your toes. I like to keep on my toes.
I generally agree, Daggaz.
However, perhaps it's more complicated than them being cowards who don't want any risk in the game?
However, perhaps it's more complicated than them being cowards who don't want any risk in the game?
Kesena OOC: 'i wish my daddy bought me power tools'
Dorgh group-says 'damn, even with Cofen helping Mori, they STILL can't kill someone
Hekanut says 'I know level doesn't matter much, but most won't take seriously if a level 2 claims to be the best thing before, during, and after sliced bread.'
Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
Dorgh group-says 'damn, even with Cofen helping Mori, they STILL can't kill someone
Hekanut says 'I know level doesn't matter much, but most won't take seriously if a level 2 claims to be the best thing before, during, and after sliced bread.'
Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
So where is this fine line between real life and stupidity. Stupidity being that someone 15 yrs ago coded that someone is so halfwitted that they can barely control their bowls as they try to BLINDLY flee. PANIC! indeed. *yawn*
Escape was VERY nice for rogue and bard. Why don't all classes get this in the first place? And WHY bard/rogue instead of the warrior types? Escape fails too, just not at the moronathon rate at which flee does. It's not a question of making the game safer as much as it is making it more logical. Why the hell can't you just 'Flee south' for example?!
As for highest circle failing, it seems pretty concrete that it's 5% fail rate with 99 spellcast etc. That's just wrong. I can see QUICK CHANT failing on the 5% but completely losing concentration? As a druid, you wanna spank that coder who put it in :P
I remember when Sojourn (1) was just cast and forget it. Then they added "*'s" ..you could also just sit there and practice meditate by spamming it. At least they fixed that part of it.
Escape was VERY nice for rogue and bard. Why don't all classes get this in the first place? And WHY bard/rogue instead of the warrior types? Escape fails too, just not at the moronathon rate at which flee does. It's not a question of making the game safer as much as it is making it more logical. Why the hell can't you just 'Flee south' for example?!
As for highest circle failing, it seems pretty concrete that it's 5% fail rate with 99 spellcast etc. That's just wrong. I can see QUICK CHANT failing on the 5% but completely losing concentration? As a druid, you wanna spank that coder who put it in :P
I remember when Sojourn (1) was just cast and forget it. Then they added "*'s" ..you could also just sit there and practice meditate by spamming it. At least they fixed that part of it.
-
Eilistraee
- Staff Member - Quests
- Posts: 1097
- Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:20 pm
The name of the coder who put in that 5% is...
Oh, wait. It isn't 5%.
For success to have any meaning, there must be a chance for failure. When dealing with the possibilities to determine if a chance should happen, it is inevitable that the possibility for multiple failures will occur. This is a basic premise of a random system.
If you want certainty, playing a game is not for you. It is that simple. If you are playing monopoly and you roll snake eyes 10 times in a row, are you going to complain to
Hasbro?
The dice company?
Isaac Newton?
That factory in wherever that created the board with that slight unevenness that tilted the dice in a certain way?
Random chance happens. Sometimes it works in your favor (nobody ever complains about not failing a single spell after 400 casts). Other times it works against you.
Oh, wait. It isn't 5%.
For success to have any meaning, there must be a chance for failure. When dealing with the possibilities to determine if a chance should happen, it is inevitable that the possibility for multiple failures will occur. This is a basic premise of a random system.
If you want certainty, playing a game is not for you. It is that simple. If you are playing monopoly and you roll snake eyes 10 times in a row, are you going to complain to
Hasbro?
The dice company?
Isaac Newton?
That factory in wherever that created the board with that slight unevenness that tilted the dice in a certain way?
Random chance happens. Sometimes it works in your favor (nobody ever complains about not failing a single spell after 400 casts). Other times it works against you.
Eilistraee
It's not about not having a chance to fail, it's about things working in a logical and heroic manner that is fun. For instance, when dragons got changed, it was pure luck whether you won or not, if they used wingbuffet (the start type) you lost, if they didn't you won. Preparation, your skills, you experience in combat, whatever, meant absolutely nothing. It sucked, it was boring. It was boring cleaning up afterwards.
With flee it is the same, you have no choice in what direction you flee? What on earth is that about? In some instances there is a group of mobs guarding a door to a huge horrifyin death, you realise you can't face the mobs so you choose to try and flee past them, through the door, into certain death? It's just silly.
From my RL experience, I am a level 50 warrior, and I was fighting these 4 dragons right, they were giving my friends a pretty solid pounding (pun intended, Australia has some of the most dangerous auimals in the world, including dragons 'Ed.'). So anyhow, I saw 8 more dragons coming over the Sydney Harbour Bridge and I called out, 'RUN AWAY' and jumped in front of my comrades. So my friends back off from the bridge and hid in the Opera House while I held the bridge secure from the badass dragons. Then I ran back into the house and dived through the door at the last minute as the dragons fangs came crashing down near my ankles. So anyhow, the dragons sat on the bridge and spelled up, we moonwelled in some badass rangers including steve irwin because we knew they would smite dragons easily. Then we stormed that bridge and took them out and it was hella cool for everyone involved even the dragons, because they got to meet steve and they repop next australian boot anyhow.
So there's my mud experience, and my RL experience, both clearly adding up to the fact that warriors should be able to retreat in combat based on a retreat skill the same as escape.
The technical aspects follow: The more mobs they are tanking should directly effect the chance of success incase they get surrounded and have to dive through legs and stuff like I did with those 12 dragons. There should be a round of lag associated with this skill so that you can't escape thorugh zones ala rogue, and to show that if you do fail, you might now have a big ogre standing in your path and need to try a new way out giving some real risk and entertainment at the same time. If you are stopped from flee due to a mob, maybe the message could involve that mob!
Fred the Tomato Demon hinders your efforts to retreat in that direction.
With flee it is the same, you have no choice in what direction you flee? What on earth is that about? In some instances there is a group of mobs guarding a door to a huge horrifyin death, you realise you can't face the mobs so you choose to try and flee past them, through the door, into certain death? It's just silly.
From my RL experience, I am a level 50 warrior, and I was fighting these 4 dragons right, they were giving my friends a pretty solid pounding (pun intended, Australia has some of the most dangerous auimals in the world, including dragons 'Ed.'). So anyhow, I saw 8 more dragons coming over the Sydney Harbour Bridge and I called out, 'RUN AWAY' and jumped in front of my comrades. So my friends back off from the bridge and hid in the Opera House while I held the bridge secure from the badass dragons. Then I ran back into the house and dived through the door at the last minute as the dragons fangs came crashing down near my ankles. So anyhow, the dragons sat on the bridge and spelled up, we moonwelled in some badass rangers including steve irwin because we knew they would smite dragons easily. Then we stormed that bridge and took them out and it was hella cool for everyone involved even the dragons, because they got to meet steve and they repop next australian boot anyhow.
So there's my mud experience, and my RL experience, both clearly adding up to the fact that warriors should be able to retreat in combat based on a retreat skill the same as escape.
The technical aspects follow: The more mobs they are tanking should directly effect the chance of success incase they get surrounded and have to dive through legs and stuff like I did with those 12 dragons. There should be a round of lag associated with this skill so that you can't escape thorugh zones ala rogue, and to show that if you do fail, you might now have a big ogre standing in your path and need to try a new way out giving some real risk and entertainment at the same time. If you are stopped from flee due to a mob, maybe the message could involve that mob!
Fred the Tomato Demon hinders your efforts to retreat in that direction.
Arishae group-says 'mah sunray brings all the boys to the yard'
Shadow Scream
Shadow Scream
-
ssar
- Sojourner
- Posts: 1446
- Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Newcastle, NSW, Australia
- Contact:
Sarell wrote: I saw 8 more dragons coming over the Sydney Harbour Bridge and I called out, 'RUN AWAY' and jumped in front of my comrades. So my friends back off from the bridge and hid in the Opera House while I held the bridge secure from the badass dragons. Then I ran back into the house and dived through the door at the last minute as the dragons fangs came crashing down near my ankles. So anyhow, the dragons sat on the bridge and spelled up, we moonwelled in some badass rangers including steve irwin because we knew they would smite dragons easily. Then we stormed that bridge
Rolf Harris skips in from the north.
Rolf Harris assists Steve Irwin.
Rolf harris grabs a long shiny wobble-board.
Rolf Harris begins singing.
Rolf Harris utters the words, 'Tie me Kangaroo down, sport!'.
Rolf Harris does a little jig.
Steve Irwin says, 'Crikey!'
Rolf Harris utters the words, 'Tie me Kangaroo down!'.
A collosal green dragon pales, and begins to sag as the malevolent tunes from Rolf Harris assail it's senses!
A collosal black dragon pales, and begins to sag as the malevolent tunes from Rolf Harris assail it's senses!
The ancient green dragon Chloracrida pales, and begins to sag as the malevolent tunes from Rolf Harris assail it's senses!
A massive red dragon resists Rolf Harris's tune!
Dame Edna strides in from the north.
Dame Edna assists Ladak.
Ladak heroically rescues Dame Edna.
Steve Irwin says, 'Crikey!'
Rolf Harris angles his long shiny wobble-board to catch the rays of the bright summer sun..
A collosal green dragon is blinded by the flash!
A collosal black dragon is blinded by the flash!
The ancient green dragon Chloracrida reels from the glare, and stands it's ground.
A massive red dragon is blinded by the flash!
Dame Edna raises her voice to the sky.
Dame Edna hitches up her dress, winking.
Steve Irwin says, 'Crikey!'
Ladak panics, and attempts to flee.
Rolf Harris panics, and attempts to flee.
The ancient green dragon Chloracrida panics, and attempts to flee.
Dame Edna breaks into song.
Steve Iwrin is stunned!
A collosal green dragon is stunned!
A collosal black dragon is stunned!
A massive red dragon is stunned!
BEER
Like Sarell said, there is a retreat command in the game, 100% success, w/lag out of room that non-tanks can use to "flee" in the desired direction.
An escape skill w/no lag is overpowered for all classes. It'd be so much easier to cheese stuff if I knew I could *instantaneously* flee at all times. When thinking of memming out you balance risk vrs. reward: use retreat for a safe mem w/that slight lag or flee so you can insta-mem. Escape, even at level 1, almost never fails; I was surprised about that when I just started my rogue.
Something also like Sarell said that has a failure rate based on the # of mobs you're tanking makes sense. When you're tanking a mob, a mob is supposed to be totally focused on you, so yes, maybe you can't flee in the direction you want. I may want to run away from the 8 dragon room, but the mob whose total concentration is on me maybe isn't so slow or lazy to just let me run out of the room and is chasing me around that I do lose orientation and choose the wrong exit.
Or perhaps it does take me awhile to flee in the correct direction. The penalty with failed flees is the time it takes to type "flee" again, see if you succeed, etc. So maybe on flee command instead of it messaging a fail over and over again, it lags you by so much, and then you finally flee. That would correlate you running around with the mob chasing you in the room until you finally get to the exit you want.
Point about flee: already a command "retreat" that guarantees an exit, and it does make sense for flee failure if you have to use that command while tanking.
I do agree with some points that Daggaz made. There has to be some chance factor in the game, I don't think you can call it just dumb luck. Failing a spell may be a time sink if you aren't in battle, ie failing well or relocate while not fighting. But put in battles it's something that you do prepare for and I think it is somewhat of a skill to "prepare" for failure and does give a rush instead of everything 100% guaranteed.
The example that's given, sure an enchanter can cause a spank because he failed a dragonscale, but that's only because they didn't plan for the chance of that failure ie always keeping an extra spell memmed and it gives a chance to show the recovery nature of that player.
So I don't think failing flee or concentration is "dumb luck" but does have a valid place in gameplay. Dragons right after changes *were* dumb luck. Now imho I think they're pretty much at where they should be.
Just my two cents though. I'm not old school but I hear about how fun and yet challenging the game was back then. As people have commented before, perhaps some of the fun factor has been taken out of the game because of changed making the game easier and thus you don't even need to pay much attention to play. I wish I played back then, but as for right now I hope the game doesn't get more and more dumbed down. :p
An escape skill w/no lag is overpowered for all classes. It'd be so much easier to cheese stuff if I knew I could *instantaneously* flee at all times. When thinking of memming out you balance risk vrs. reward: use retreat for a safe mem w/that slight lag or flee so you can insta-mem. Escape, even at level 1, almost never fails; I was surprised about that when I just started my rogue.
Something also like Sarell said that has a failure rate based on the # of mobs you're tanking makes sense. When you're tanking a mob, a mob is supposed to be totally focused on you, so yes, maybe you can't flee in the direction you want. I may want to run away from the 8 dragon room, but the mob whose total concentration is on me maybe isn't so slow or lazy to just let me run out of the room and is chasing me around that I do lose orientation and choose the wrong exit.
Or perhaps it does take me awhile to flee in the correct direction. The penalty with failed flees is the time it takes to type "flee" again, see if you succeed, etc. So maybe on flee command instead of it messaging a fail over and over again, it lags you by so much, and then you finally flee. That would correlate you running around with the mob chasing you in the room until you finally get to the exit you want.
Point about flee: already a command "retreat" that guarantees an exit, and it does make sense for flee failure if you have to use that command while tanking.
I do agree with some points that Daggaz made. There has to be some chance factor in the game, I don't think you can call it just dumb luck. Failing a spell may be a time sink if you aren't in battle, ie failing well or relocate while not fighting. But put in battles it's something that you do prepare for and I think it is somewhat of a skill to "prepare" for failure and does give a rush instead of everything 100% guaranteed.
The example that's given, sure an enchanter can cause a spank because he failed a dragonscale, but that's only because they didn't plan for the chance of that failure ie always keeping an extra spell memmed and it gives a chance to show the recovery nature of that player.
So I don't think failing flee or concentration is "dumb luck" but does have a valid place in gameplay. Dragons right after changes *were* dumb luck. Now imho I think they're pretty much at where they should be.
Just my two cents though. I'm not old school but I hear about how fun and yet challenging the game was back then. As people have commented before, perhaps some of the fun factor has been taken out of the game because of changed making the game easier and thus you don't even need to pay much attention to play. I wish I played back then, but as for right now I hope the game doesn't get more and more dumbed down. :p
One of the things I really don't get is retreat causes lag, yet the ones who use it are mostly casters. Why? It's my understanding that it caused lag to prevent melee twinky hittings, but what's this? You do just that with escape as a rogue. Not only are they free hits, but much of the time they're freaking backstab damages. Wouldn't it have been nasty if mobs used the same tactic on players? Yikes :P Mob AI is set where you know you have several seconds buffer when rogue type flees out cuz it is GONNA hide. Players don't and this 'awareness' skill is supposed to be higher when you're in combat, so why do mobs waste time hiding?
Level 51+ mobs don't fail 10th circle so isn't it a but odd that <50 mobs do? it's been brought up b4 mostly on popular request to have high % L50 players !fail 10th circ. And if this can't be done, at least make 10th circ !fail when NOT in combat, such as res/well/pact..even scales when not in combat, cuz the other spells are on a timer. Scales would be same as if timestop, being that it's over if combat in room. Timesinks on wells that take 20 or 40 seconds, depending on quickchat, aren't fun whatsoever. You fail concentration. Now you as a player have to 'hurry up and wait' while repraying. What's the point?? I don't see it as fun, maybe others do, but not I.
Level 51+ mobs don't fail 10th circle so isn't it a but odd that <50 mobs do? it's been brought up b4 mostly on popular request to have high % L50 players !fail 10th circ. And if this can't be done, at least make 10th circ !fail when NOT in combat, such as res/well/pact..even scales when not in combat, cuz the other spells are on a timer. Scales would be same as if timestop, being that it's over if combat in room. Timesinks on wells that take 20 or 40 seconds, depending on quickchat, aren't fun whatsoever. You fail concentration. Now you as a player have to 'hurry up and wait' while repraying. What's the point?? I don't see it as fun, maybe others do, but not I.
Thilindel wrote:If I rolled that badly that many times, I'd end up cheating somehow and change the dice before someone saw! :P However, when I log on just to well someone, it _usually_ fails the first cast. Very common. 107% into level so I guess if there were an anti-lottery, I'd win it!
Your druid sucks then--i havent failed a well in my last 20-30 attempts
Honestly though..what's the harm in failing a 10th circle spell? Those are highyl powerful spells, and faily them does add a 'dumb luck' factor to the game. Knowing 100% what to expect in a fight is boring as hell. And if i fail a scale, guess what..i cast another one, or toss a stone while i remem. Variety and randomness is what makes a game a game.
As for flee, i really havent had many issues with it...but i would think failing 3 -6 flees in a row would be kind of annoying:P
In summary..quit whining..10th circle spell failure is low, and SHOULD be a factor in the game.
That is all
Thilindel wrote:then all circles should fail.
Clerics should get Group Heal.
Illusionists should get Blind.
As long as we're hijacking here. :P
Seriously Thil..I agree that failing concentration can be somewhat irritating, but there is a reason why the highest circle of spells you can cast can sometimes fail. Or that Illusionists don't get blind. Or that clerics don't get group heal. Game balance. I'm not saying that maybe we shouldn't look into a different way of handling it, but you're freaking out over nothing, compared to some of the other things that have to be worked on. ;)
As far as flee failures go, yeah, I think some tweaking could possibly be done to stop the failing flee 20x in a row. But it should be possible to fail fleeing. Battle is chaotic, after all.
hehe I was being cynical - but since
I just was thinking it funny, cuz other important spells are !fail at 50, like blur, displace etc. But skills you get at lvl 1, like backstab, still fail at lvl 50. Either way I was just having fun w/the topic.
Eilistraee wrote: For success to have any meaning, there must be a chance for failure.
I just was thinking it funny, cuz other important spells are !fail at 50, like blur, displace etc. But skills you get at lvl 1, like backstab, still fail at lvl 50. Either way I was just having fun w/the topic.
So anyhow here's the plan....
Give warriors escape skill. When checking the skill minus the number of mobs they are engaged with from the skill for the dice check. Also, add one round of lag on using the skill, BEFORE the skills fires, maybe the code could fire a dummy skill that does nothing and lags a round then enacts the escape action. So if there is a situation where you REALLY have to get out as fast as possible, you might flee still, but for general combat, you will rescue the mages then make a tactical retreat. So if you did fail your tactical escape, you could still flee if you had to in another direction.. ie, oh crap the dragon is blocking the bridge, guess I'll just jump off it.
I think adding the check on numbers of mobs tanked would be a good idea for rogues escape aswell, but not the lag. I think of rogues as assisting for a bit, then running away to cover something, make a skillful retreat ahead of the party, go fetch reinforcements... that kind of stuff. Jump over the enemy an dive into the shadows!
Give warriors escape skill. When checking the skill minus the number of mobs they are engaged with from the skill for the dice check. Also, add one round of lag on using the skill, BEFORE the skills fires, maybe the code could fire a dummy skill that does nothing and lags a round then enacts the escape action. So if there is a situation where you REALLY have to get out as fast as possible, you might flee still, but for general combat, you will rescue the mages then make a tactical retreat. So if you did fail your tactical escape, you could still flee if you had to in another direction.. ie, oh crap the dragon is blocking the bridge, guess I'll just jump off it.
I think adding the check on numbers of mobs tanked would be a good idea for rogues escape aswell, but not the lag. I think of rogues as assisting for a bit, then running away to cover something, make a skillful retreat ahead of the party, go fetch reinforcements... that kind of stuff. Jump over the enemy an dive into the shadows!
Arishae group-says 'mah sunray brings all the boys to the yard'
Shadow Scream
Shadow Scream
Sarell wrote:Give warriors escape skill. Also, add one round of lag on using the skill, BEFORE the skills fires, maybe the code could fire a dummy skill that does nothing and lags a round then enacts the escape action. So if there is a situation where you REALLY have to get out as fast as possible, you might flee still, but for general combat, you will rescue the mages then make a tactical retreat. So if you did fail your tactical escape, you could still flee if you had to in another direction.. ie, oh crap the dragon is blocking the bridge, guess I'll just jump off it.
uh basically code retreat in reverse.. instead of flee <direction> ; lag..... lag ; flee <direction>.. seriously when zoning how often do tanks FLEE? from my experience (yes a lil limited) only when its attack oh shit were dead! everyone out! casters etc in the group must be slow ass flee'ers if this happens and i'm almost dead.. get a freakin buffer and suck it up man..
Kaisi tells you 'get smirn, he's better than me'
--HELP! My legs aren't long enough!--
--HELP! My legs aren't long enough!--
Minofagal wrote:uh basically code retreat in reverse.. instead of flee <direction> ; lag..... lag ; flee <direction>.. seriously when zoning how often do tanks FLEE? from my experience (yes a lil limited) only when its attack oh shit were dead! everyone out! casters etc in the group must be slow ass flee'ers if this happens and i'm almost dead.. get a freakin buffer and suck it up man..
Tanks flee in most high end zones because mobs pack a lot of damage, have a lot of hitpoints, but can't heal as fast as a solid player group. You do runs. Most big zone you can't take out in one run anymore.
The only arguments people are putting against having a skill like this is 'suck it up' or 'it would be unbalanced' ... it.. .balanced with what? what would? Just seems like a way to add some realism flavour to me and increase the skillset and usefulness of warriors(and subclasses) as tanks which I think everyone wants.
Arishae group-says 'mah sunray brings all the boys to the yard'
Shadow Scream
Shadow Scream
Lots of good ideas here IMHO. Here's my suggestions for an ideal solution in my mind (many ideas here also reflected in previous posts):
1. FLEE (panic-mode)- Instant results, no change in lag, random direction to include portals, modifiers to success rate should be number of exits, player level, player agility, maybe even factor in skill level in "dodge", and number and level of mobs player is tanking. Seems like it would make sense to also make it more likely that you flee in the direction you entered through rather than some other direction (e.g. entered from East, 4 exits, 20% North, 20% West, 20% South, 40% East).
2. RETREAT (non-panic, should be avail to ppl tanking, too) - Pre-movement lag based on difficulty of maneuver (similar to above, based on level of PC and number and level of mobs PC is tanking - maintain zero pre-move lag if not tanking). Post-movement lag only if necessary to prevent twinking (no RL reason for it). Perhaps get a message once the attempt to retreat is initiated ("You are attempting to retreat to the South..." "You retreat South!") Retreating any direction including into portals ok. If tanking create a failure rate (modified by the same considerations as FLEE above). The icing on the cake would be to be able to choose multiple exits to decrease lag and increase success rate ("retreat s e") and upon success randomly exit via those choices. Could also make it harder (more lag, higher failure) if you want to retreat through a different exit than you came in through.
3. ESCAPE - I haven't played a rogue so I won't try to guess at whether this needs tweaking. The gods hopefully can tell if it is too abuseable to be balanced. I do think rogue-types should have some extra ability in this area over other classes, slippery as they are supposed to be.
There you go, my 2 cents (maybe that was 3).
Vadian
1. FLEE (panic-mode)- Instant results, no change in lag, random direction to include portals, modifiers to success rate should be number of exits, player level, player agility, maybe even factor in skill level in "dodge", and number and level of mobs player is tanking. Seems like it would make sense to also make it more likely that you flee in the direction you entered through rather than some other direction (e.g. entered from East, 4 exits, 20% North, 20% West, 20% South, 40% East).
2. RETREAT (non-panic, should be avail to ppl tanking, too) - Pre-movement lag based on difficulty of maneuver (similar to above, based on level of PC and number and level of mobs PC is tanking - maintain zero pre-move lag if not tanking). Post-movement lag only if necessary to prevent twinking (no RL reason for it). Perhaps get a message once the attempt to retreat is initiated ("You are attempting to retreat to the South..." "You retreat South!") Retreating any direction including into portals ok. If tanking create a failure rate (modified by the same considerations as FLEE above). The icing on the cake would be to be able to choose multiple exits to decrease lag and increase success rate ("retreat s e") and upon success randomly exit via those choices. Could also make it harder (more lag, higher failure) if you want to retreat through a different exit than you came in through.
3. ESCAPE - I haven't played a rogue so I won't try to guess at whether this needs tweaking. The gods hopefully can tell if it is too abuseable to be balanced. I do think rogue-types should have some extra ability in this area over other classes, slippery as they are supposed to be.
There you go, my 2 cents (maybe that was 3).
Vadian
Last edited by Vipplin on Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just remember, easy power does not always equal abuse.
Kesena OOC: 'i wish my daddy bought me power tools'
Dorgh group-says 'damn, even with Cofen helping Mori, they STILL can't kill someone
Hekanut says 'I know level doesn't matter much, but most won't take seriously if a level 2 claims to be the best thing before, during, and after sliced bread.'
Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
Dorgh group-says 'damn, even with Cofen helping Mori, they STILL can't kill someone
Hekanut says 'I know level doesn't matter much, but most won't take seriously if a level 2 claims to be the best thing before, during, and after sliced bread.'
Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
I like the idea of adding an escape-type skill to TANKS with pre-lag.
There's two possibilities though with check failure: fail the check and escape (hence you just get lagged but in same room) (higher chance) or it turns into flee (lower chance).
With the lag and sligh chance of failures, would make the tank have to think of when to use the skill or just flee.
I don't think escape should be given to everyone though. Mages are already pretty buff by themselves and I can think of several more mobs/areas that become soloable if mages got an escape-type skill. Part of this goes back to why blink was nerfed :(.
There's two possibilities though with check failure: fail the check and escape (hence you just get lagged but in same room) (higher chance) or it turns into flee (lower chance).
With the lag and sligh chance of failures, would make the tank have to think of when to use the skill or just flee.
I don't think escape should be given to everyone though. Mages are already pretty buff by themselves and I can think of several more mobs/areas that become soloable if mages got an escape-type skill. Part of this goes back to why blink was nerfed :(.
ROFLMAO sarell. that was hillarious.
hmm if I coudln't fail dscales, i suppose it would be a waste of time making stone trigs for _every member in the group_ at startup as well as the scale trigs.. guess i probably wouldnt need to do the same as I do with blur, even tho i rarely use them, if only people would stop failing at things, like the silence spell for example, or rescue for that matter...
Tanks get rescue at lvl one and yet, they STILL fail at level fifty! Ahh the travesty, the moronic progression of mud stupidity! When will the madness end?!!
Prepare yourself, you may very well die.
hmm if I coudln't fail dscales, i suppose it would be a waste of time making stone trigs for _every member in the group_ at startup as well as the scale trigs.. guess i probably wouldnt need to do the same as I do with blur, even tho i rarely use them, if only people would stop failing at things, like the silence spell for example, or rescue for that matter...
Tanks get rescue at lvl one and yet, they STILL fail at level fifty! Ahh the travesty, the moronic progression of mud stupidity! When will the madness end?!!
Prepare yourself, you may very well die.
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