Knowing the specifics

Submit and discuss your ideas for the MUD.

Considering 2.0 coming out - On spell, saves, etc., helpfiles, would you like to know the specific dice/lvl and so forth?

Yes.
11
39%
It would be nice, but it doesn't matter either way.
7
25%
No.
10
36%
Maybe have a help book for sale at shops that list the specifics, for a price.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 28
Thilindel
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Knowing the specifics

Postby Thilindel » Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:51 pm

I remember back on Soj1 about the helpfile for monks. It was very specific, giving the dice per level for unarmed damage. I am curious to see if others would like helpfiles to be more specific. Some files are really unclear..

"PROTECTION FROM GOOD"
Spell.

Area of effect: <victim>
Aggressive: No
Cumulative: No
Duration: Dependent on proficiency of caster
Class/Circle: Anti-Paladin/Cleric 4th, Shaman 5th
Type of spell: Protection

This spell will create a magical armor on the recipient. The armor will
make the target less prone to attacks from good aligned monsters and
characters.

See also: "PROTECTION FROM EVIL"

That, and there's no indication (from another thread) that if you are GOOD in this example, that 'protection from good' will even benefit you.

In the player handbook, things are quite specific. But for spells like Force Missiles, it'd rock knowing the dice!
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Postby Vipplin » Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:12 am

I like specifics.
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:51 pm

Oh, wanted to add that each time more info was offered, it was welcomed.

We had 'M1A1 Abrams. Now we get -100.
We had >>>>> Now we get x%.
etc.

More specifics are always welcomed.
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Postby moritheil » Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:39 am

I've gone on record before as saying that the statistics should not be given out too freely. That sort of thing ruins the mystique. Toril isn't like other games. People freely expect to see transparent numbers and to easily look up quest information for games such as FFXI or Diablo II. Toril is built on a different premise - the premise that the player is going to make a long-term investment and commit to actually learning things. Sure, even in the past you could go to Minthur's Maps or get Cherzra's Zmud saved maps, but would that make you good enough to run through a zone when it really counted? Nope. You still had to learn facts about the zone.

My guess is that sticking with this approach is better for Toril in the long run. It's already lost the bulk of the online audience to well-funded MMOGs in terms of the populist approach. It will have to aim at devoted players to keep a player base, and in light of that fact, anything that cheapens the value of information is probably not a good thing.
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Postby Thilindel » Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:34 pm

The volume of players who are willing to explore zones, areas, etc. is waning and has been for a long time. People who are willing to fully test zones, statistics, and other mysteries isn't there anymore.

When you play D2ToB, you see exactly what you do for damage. What you don't see is the mob's att's. For that you can go on Blizzard's website. Either way it takes nothing from the game.

When you see ambiguous 'provides some protection from..' information and there is nothing conclusive after casting it. I've tried several hundred rounds just to explore some of these type spells. Why keep people in the dark. The mystique of Toril/sojourn's elite past is in the shadows of graphic games, unfortunately. It should be as user friendly as possible.
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:01 pm

I think there was a time, a decade or more ago, when players looking for "immersion" wanted to see all the math taken behind the curtain. There are still people playing games out there who prefer the opaque method of handling stats, and who prefer seeing their world unfold via description rather than numbers. I was never one of them.

However, D&D is not an opaque system. Some information is hidden from the players, such as precise monster stats and even some magic item abilities. However, the player knows exactly what his character is capable of, mathematically. You know what each of your spells does, and you can make decisions based on actual values rather than educated guesses. The beauty of D&D is in the combination of visible and invisible numbers... I know that I produce 40 damage per round on average, but I have no idea how many hit points the monster has, what its damage reduction is, or what kind of weapon I need to penetrate its defenses. In a perfect environment, I can predict my character's outcomes, but the DM assures that no environment is ever perfect. That's why I like the system.

So for me, I want to see help files with numbers. I expect to know exactly what my character's options are, so I can back my decisions with knowledge and not guesswork. The mystery exists on the DM's side of the table... nothing my character does should ever be unknown to me (short of fiddling with unidentified magic items).
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Postby Mirlantharn » Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:46 am

I have _always_ attempted to explore, even venturing out upon my own, unless forewarned by friends. Even then, I wanted to be able to sneak myself past some danger to explore those supposedly harmful locations. One of the downsides of requiring large parties in a zone is that in order to explore the zone you need such a large group to do so. If going solo, it sparked interest from other players in attempting to help you out of a zone, which kept players around more.

Most of the fun of years past was gathering the 6 or 8 people, all sitting next to you at 3w or at the fountain in WD, and going out to see what the commotion was or even just exploring without any information at all.
(Area creators, translate this as "Don't even allow your best friends info about your zones, and if playing in zone act dumb about it while maintaining your character's intelligence." There's been too many rumors of players having inside info from their friends or even of their own zones.)

This all being said, once I'm back playing more regularly, I hope to gather a small group and venture out again from Waterdeep!

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Postby Tasan » Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:19 am

Mirlantharn wrote:"Don't even allow your best friends info about your zones, and if playing in zone act dumb about it while maintaining your character's intelligence." There's been too many rumors of players having inside info from their friends or even of their own zones.)


There hasn't just been rumors, there have been instances where people have, for lack of a better term, cheated to gain info off testmud or in other ways. Nothing is secret in the world anymore... quests aren't secret. Stats aren't secret... much of what used to pass for intelligent good gameplay is now watered down so that every Jake, Chris and Kelly can spend less time figuring things out and just grind away.

Personally I liked the game better when I needed to test my various weapons to see which one actually worked better. But now the "I don't have time to play, so make it as simplistic as possible" folks rule. You wonder why your pbase dwindles... part of the charm of this place used to be the separation between those that spent time learning and those that played "casually". There's no other way to play but casually anymore.

People like Lilithelle, Sotana, Pava, Ifin, Botef... those are the people that spent time figuring things out and every small change to make things more transparent washes away more of their collective skill. Soon the cookie-cutter definition won't just apply to equipment, but to every character and player behind the screen here.

Once you lose the ability to be someone, we're all just anonymous nobodies and there will be no community left.
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Postby Gormal » Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:31 am

What are you trying to say about me, ho!?
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Postby Birile » Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:20 pm

Tasan wrote:People like Lilithelle, Sotana, Pava, Ifin, Botef... those are the people that spent time figuring things out and every small change to make things more transparent washes away more of their collective skill. Soon the cookie-cutter definition won't just apply to equipment, but to every character and player behind the screen here.

Once you lose the ability to be someone, we're all just anonymous nobodies and there will be no community left.


Good point, but I think in the end, there is still something that sets those people apart from the rest of us nobodies. :) Especially Sotana, but I'm rather partial.
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Postby Tasan » Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:22 pm

Gormal wrote:What are you trying to say about me, ho!?


I didn't want to say "Tom, Dick and Harry", since I don't know anyone here by those names.

Well, I guess I know a Dick, but no one calls him that.
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Postby Thilindel » Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:33 pm

Tasan wrote:Once you lose the ability to be someone, we're all just anonymous nobodies and there will be no community left.


If that were true, there'd be no difference once out of ROTC for example. There are shitty officers, decent ones, then there are the admiral Nimitz, general Patton, etc.. It's not what you know, it's how you use it. Lilithelle's guile and intelligence is what makes her so special. It's people with talent that see something the average Joe doesn't.
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Postby Gormal » Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:31 pm

Tasan wrote:I didn't want to say "Tom, Dick and Harry", since I don't know anyone here by those names


Are you saying something about my hair now? What the hell, Doug?
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:53 am

Tasan wrote:Stats aren't secret... much of what used to pass for intelligent good gameplay is now watered down so that every Jake, Chris and Kelly can spend less time figuring things out and just grind away.


And hate it. I can't say it enough. I love the game... I love the people and ... the people. In ways I love the game. I just hate the way it was totally dumbed down and caters more and more to people who don't want to have to think or expend effort. Nobody wants to be new, they all want to come out of the box knowing everything. Nobody wants to experience and learn, they just want the rewards and screw the idea of "value." Nobody wants atmosphere, they just want rote mechanics. Nobody wants a challenge. Every time somebody dies they go on and on about how lame it was that they died... eventually all it sounds like is "There should never be any chance of me dying, or the group spanking, or any kind of risk. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." We dumbed the game down, and we continued to attract the kind of people who prefer it that way, except they didn't know what it used to be, and what it is now is never good enough.

Should we be able to see every number behind the mechanics? Why the hell not. Why have to expend any thought to test your limits? Nothing's going to roll it back now. We got what we paid for. And we were cheap.
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Postby Drache » Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:16 am

What's all this ranting have to do with what dice spells do? Player handbooks show them, why not the mud
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Postby Tasan » Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:12 am

Thilindel wrote:It's people with talent that see something the average Joe doesn't.


And if everything is dumbed down, guess what... we're all average joe. Thank you for illustrating my point.
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Postby Sarell » Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:53 am

I like the mystery, should be more of it, different spells have different effects on different creatures, and you find them out by using them. Give you something to do, what's the point of playing if you know how everything works? You will probably just make a trigger to do everything for you with the information at hand anyhow. I love the way people start wearing gear because they 'saw Dartan wearing it so it must be good!' Mystery equates to increased imersion in game and longevity of players for me.
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Postby Eilistraee » Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:59 pm

I know the specifics. I know the numbers, precisely where the bonuses fall. What works well against this that and the other thing.

The game was a lot more fun for me when I didn't get sidetracking trying to think of the ideal combination of factors in an encounter. When I didn't already know exactly how the AI would react in any given circumstance. It may be a personality type sort of thing, but from one who has taken the transition from playing in the grey to having the full picture, you can enjoy the game a lot more when you don't know all the numbers.
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Postby Thilindel » Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:47 pm

Tasan wrote:
Thilindel wrote:It's people with talent that see something the average Joe doesn't.


And if everything is dumbed down, guess what... we're all average joe. Thank you for illustrating my point.


Your logic is wrong. Real life is the best example to point this out. We all are basically open to the same libraries and social experiences. What we do with them is whatever we make of it. Specifics to any industry or profession are pretty open after awhile. It's the attorneys etc. that manipulate the info to become powerful. You get your cockroaches like Johnny Cockring, or F(lea) Bailey...then you get the guys who can't cut it as attorneys or don't give a damn like public defenders.

Either way, the knowledge is there for any person. Some people live in Malibu and others in a cardboard box. *shrug* Specifics of the game won't hurt a damned thing.
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Postby Thilindel » Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:55 pm

Ragorn wrote:...However, D&D is not an opaque system. Some information is hidden from the players, such as precise monster stats and even some magic item abilities. However, the player knows exactly what his character is capable of, mathematically. You know what each of your spells does, and you can make decisions based on actual values rather than educated guesses. The beauty of D&D is in the combination of visible and invisible numbers... I know that I produce 40 damage per round on average, but I have no idea how many hit points the monster has, what its damage reduction is, or what kind of weapon I need to penetrate its defenses. In a perfect environment, I can predict my character's outcomes, but the DM assures that no environment is ever perfect. That's why I like the system...


Eilistraee wrote:...but from one who has taken the transition from playing in the grey to having the full picture, you can enjoy the game a lot more when you don't know all the numbers.


I don't wanna see the mob's side of the equation, just the player's. As for my personality type, what ruins a game is playing in god mode and winning. Then to try and play the same game w/o the invulnerability is pretty boring.
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Postby Gurns » Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:22 pm

Drache wrote:What's all this ranting have to do with what dice spells do?

It's not just about seeing or not seeing the numbers, it's a general approach to the game. In a lot of posts on the BBS, there are those who call for a game that is fast and easy, hack n' slash n' loot and little else. Or they request changes that would move the mud more in that direction. Seeing more numbers is moving in that direction.

It's nice to see folks besides myself who think that's the wrong direction.

While some games have been successful with that model, I'd hate to see this mud become an imitation of something else. I'd like this mud to emphasize its own strengths. Partly this is a personal preference, but it's also about who the mud could attract as new players.

What attracted me, and kept me here, was a combination of two things: Challenge and Reality.

Challenge: There were plenty of easy muds around, back when I started. But Sojourn/Toril wasn't.

I don't understand those who advocate an easier game. Easy games get boring, fast. They might be fun to play once or twice, but if you always win, what's the point? If everything is handed to you, what's the point? I like a game where you win if you learn to play well and lose if you play poorly. Where playing well means being alert and flexible, and does not mean doing exactly the same thing, the same way, every time.

I think if the mud becomes more challenging, it has no chance of attracting the vast majority of MMORPGers. But I don't think you can attract that group anyway. There's no way to make a text mud flashy enough.

But I think there's an audience out there that is bored with easy, bored with games they can always win by doing the same old thing over and over. Bored with games where lots is handed to you, whether it be gear, quest info, or knowledge of game mechanics.

Reality: A mud isn't strictly a fighting game, it's an RPG. I don't want to be forced to do full RP all the time. But I do want to be able to believe my PC is a real person in a real world. That's always been a big attraction of tabletop or muds. It's not a game about rolling dice and comparing numbers. It's a fantasy about being in a different, dangerous reality.

But to be drawn into the reality, the game must act enough like a real world. It must force you to treat it as a real world. Reality must impinge on you, whether you want it to or not. If you're barely affected by the "real world" of the mud, it's too obvious it's not real.

This reality must impinge on other players, too. If I want to believe gravity is real, then you have to fall down. If I want to believe PCs are real, with real bodies that require food and drink, then there have to be consequences for you if you don't eat. If I want to believe I'm in the Forgotten Realms, goodies and evils have to be antagonistic. To allow me to believe the world is real, you can't be allowed to ignore its reality.

I think there's an audience out there who wants to pretend they're in the Forgotten Realms. I don't think there's much audience for a text mud these days unless it has a rich reality.

Challenge plus Reality: I think the combination of challenge and reality has been the major factor in why people have played here for years. A game that had no end, no final "I've won", that had an immersing reality, that encouraged the player to believe he or she was a real person in a real world -- that was a game that could be enjoyed for years. I think that combination is what set this mud apart, what made it stand out among other muds.

I also think that both challenge and reality have declined over the last 6 or 8 or 10 years, and that's part of the reason for the decline of the pbase. If you play to win, then once you can beat any zone you want, whenever you want, what's left to do? If you play because you like being a character in an alternate reality, then when you're regularly reminded the world isn't real, what do you do?

Time: Time is also a reason for the pbase decline, we all have less of it. But, IMO, cutting into the strengths of the mud in order to accommodate that is exactly the wrong way to go. If I only have a half an hour or an hour, I want to come on and find something worthwhile. It doesn't have to be a zone. And I want to find an alternate reality to immerse myself in.

But I don't want to log on to waste my time on something easy, something rote, something where everything is handed to me, something two-dimensional, some generic fantasy world. There are plenty of muds and MMORPGs out there like that. And even with the decline in challenge and reality, TorilMUD is a lot better than that. But I would like it to become more challenging, more real. Not less.
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Postby Gormal » Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:28 pm

I'd like to highlight Gurns' note on the time factor. There's really not a lot to do for small groups/individuals that's worthwhile. The trade system would be nice, some more FK-style small group zones, I dunno... stuff.
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Postby Tasan » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:30 am

Thilindel wrote:Your logic is wrong. Real life is the best example to point this out.


Where the hell are the analogy police? I love the random vitriol added in by the way... really lends credibility to your statement. Real life doesn't provide good examples to follow in a virtual world/game. Your libraries which everyone has access to don't have information directly handed down from the governing bodies. They are filled with interpretations upon the subjects by individuals. Libraries IRL are more akin to the information found on the numerous guild BBS's that exist now. Yes much of the information is accepted by the general populace as being true or factual, but it is still coming from individuals. You can argue that scientific papers and studies can also be found in libraries etc., but again they are observations by people not absolute facts handed down from whoever devised the system(ala a deity).

Besides, it's generally known that the easier this game has gotten the more the hardcore, long-time players have moved away. Games that aren't challenging or present nothing new to know/obtain generally are discarded in favor of something unknown/new.
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Postby Ifin » Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:38 am

I think descriptions are good enough instead of the specifics. I mean, we all generally know what STR, CON, DEX, etc. do in terms of how they benefit a player. And descriptions lead to imagination.

And then it takes a player like Shaiith to take the time to test, compile all the stats etc. to get the real numbers. That's what we want.

If you want a RL analogy, do you actually know how physically or mentally strong you are before you do a bench press/SAT/whatever other measurement there is? No, you have a general idea of your standing etc. But if you want to be specific, then you do the testing etc. and you figure it out.


As for this game getting easier or harder, I think it's been pointed out time and time again. Challenge is good as older players say, repitition is not. The challenge nowadays is reduced to patience and repitition. There is no traditional challenge or danger in efficient xp these days.

A game is not challenging simply because it takes 10 hrs to get a lvl instead of 1 hr each lvl. If each level can be botted (and I can provide efficient xp codes for all classes past a certain point) then there is no challenge but it's just reptition - that's just pure stupidity and why we have no true newer players that lvl past, say, 41+.

Having all EFFICIENT xp close to hometowns where there's no danger and just reptition is not challenging, even though xp tables are still long - this just makes a game (supposed to be fun) - boring, and emphasis NOT challenging. It boggles my mind why places like HP, IC, MS, etc. have less xp than CM, DS, BGR, etc. Said again and again, those places have more atmosphere and actually teach newer players a thing or two about mobs.

Supposedly 2.0 is supposed to come and fix all this lvl'ing problem... but again, we already lost so many players that would have kept our pbase stable in the meantime. Even recently there was about 10 players that came from Duris that I've interacted with that seemed interested in Toril, but early on their concern was the tedious nature of our lvl'ing system... I have yet to seen them since when they were in their upper 20's.

So yes, part of the problem is that new players who even have the luck to follow players in the know (ie lucky to even group) only experience maybe BGR/CM/DS. This is not challenge. As Sarell said a long time ago, fix trophy - maybe even by zone instead of mob (ie aiR mephit vrs aIr mephit) and then you can d/g xp tables and there is your challenge reinstated along with better progression (just one of many solutions that seems to still be applicable).
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Postby Tasan » Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:38 pm

Ifin wrote:The challenge nowadays is reduced to patience and repitition.


QFT, and if there were any doubts about my listing of Mr. Ifin above, I think they are assuaged with that post.
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:42 pm

Ifin wrote:And then it takes a player like Shaiith to take the time to test, compile all the stats etc. to get the real numbers. That's what we want.


Why do we want one person to have to work and take hours and hours to figure these things out?

In this thread, on a side note, there is talk about making the game easier, etc. My entire point is the inconsistency of the helpfiles. Armor spell is 20 points, 30 if cast upon paladin/anti-paladin. Specific, short, and to the point. I guess I have to break out my analogy police club too, to break it down. Knowledge is handed down, understood, manipulated etc. What you do with it is your own. Screw it away or wield it upon others who cannot fully comprehend its potential. Yet another common sense, straight forward analogy: A general knows he has x leaders, y troops, and z mobility. The unknown is in the enemy and how to deal with them as you don't know exactly what they'll do. Eventually on this mud, you know what mobs do cuz AI is so lame. Actually, random behavior for mobs may make the game more chaotic and challenging. "Oh, I know that cleric won't track us 'cuz its dumbass heals up first. - quick, regroup!" Just change mob that it has several possibilities to act. Either heal up, 10% damage track, ..whatever.
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Postby Tasan » Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:23 am

Shaiith figured out some things that weren't necessarily supposed to be figured out. His diligence and methods are far beyond what most people would put into a single aspect of the game. Thus he was rewarded with that knowledge. Some people quest, some people explore... they gain knowledge through time spent on these activities. When quest information is just handed out, it devalues their time and effort. Similarly when everything is handed out, the game grows to have 0 incentive to play.

Thilindel wrote:A general knows he has x leaders, y troops, and z mobility. The unknown is in the enemy and how to deal with them as you don't know exactly what they'll do.


Uh... I'm fairly sure the same happens here. Steve tells Jake to go west. Everyone follows him. They know they can flee east... tada! No helpfiles needed for that one. Btw, how do you go from helpfiles to mob AI? Nice stream-of-conciousness.

Next.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:38 am

It's much like how you went from never playing nor posting again, then coming back to restart on me and how I post...
Thilindel
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:42 am

Tasan wrote:When quest information is just handed out, it devalues their time and effort. Similarly when everything is handed out, the game grows to have 0 incentive to play. Btw, how do you go from helpfiles to mob AI? Nice stream-of-conciousness.

Next.


..uh this thread is about learning what SPELLS do for players. You bring up giving out quest information. Nice stream of logic.
Thilindel
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:47 am

And since you'll focus on playing yet another ping pong vs. Thilindel, this is for the LOGIC behind this thread:

<P> h armor
ARMOR
Spell.

Area of effect: <victim>
Aggressive: No
Cumulative: No
Duration: 24 hours
Class/Circle: Cleric/Shaman 1st, Anti-Paladin/Paladin 2nd,
Battlechanter 4th
Type of spell: Protection

"Armor" will magically improve your armor class for a time, lowering
it by 20. Paladins and Anti-Paladins receive a 50% bonus, thus
lowering their armor class by 30.

See also: AC "ARMOR CLASS" SHIELD
VERY SPECIFIC

<P> h protection from evil
"PROTECTION FROM EVIL"
Spell.

Area of effect: <victim>
Aggressive: No
Cumulative: No
Duration: Dependent on proficiency of caster
Class/Circle: Paladin/Cleric 4th, Shaman 5th
Type of spell: Protection

This spell will create a magical armor on the recipient. The armor will
make the target harder to hit from evilly aligned monsters and
characters.

See also: "PROTECTION FROM GOOD"
Quite vague

Why are some files EXPLICIT yet others are 'gee..how informative.'
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Postby Tasan » Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:12 am

Tasan wrote:When quest information is just handed out, it devalues their time and effort. Similarly when everything is handed out, the game grows to have 0 incentive to play.


It's pretty logical to use an example to get a point across. Quest info and the impact of free information upon it's value provides a good basis for comparison. Dunno what specifically special category SPELLS come in, but I'm fairly certain they fit into the "everything" category regardless.

Thilindel wrote:Why are some files EXPLICIT yet others are 'gee..how informative.'


All helpfiles used to be fairly vague. Over the years revisions have been done to update or give out more information. If you have a problem with specific help files, or with the standards throughout the helpfile system, why not send your concerns to the appropriate authority?

Knowing the specific numbers behind every spell in the game will reduce the game to a complex series of math equations. I'm sure Shevarash and the rest of the staff don't want to have to put pages and pages of help information in so that you can know exactly how much damage you are doing in every conceivable situation that could arise on the mud. If you are really going to dumb the game down that much, why not just switch to Merc codebase and get it over with.

Your spell _\|/_DECIMATES_\|/_ a woman that's actually a horse that's actually a broom. [8675309]

Yes... now that is fun.
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'



Dlur group-says 'I have a dead horse that I'm dragging down the shaft with my 4 corpses. Anyone want to help me beat it?'



Calladuran: There are other games to play if you want to play with yourself.
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Postby Ragorn » Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:07 pm

Tasan wrote: Your spell _\|/_DECIMATES_\|/_ a woman that's actually a horse that's actually a broom. [8675309]

Yes... now that is fun.

That's great, but let's take out that silly _\|/_DECIMATES_\|/_. Just the number will be fine.

You hit an orc for 8 damage.
An orc swings and misses you.
You attack an orc, but miss.
An orc bludgeons you for 5 damage.

Perfect.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:17 pm

Tasan wrote:If you have a problem with specific help files, or with the standards throughout the helpfile system, why not send your concerns to the appropriate authority?


I thought I did. I posted the idea as a poll on the BBS. The voice of the people, I figured, would carry more weight than just myself in asking for various spells to be better explained. I've yet to see any help from the protection from good/evil. That's why I quoted that one to start.

What usually happens is a select couple of people who seemingly are frustrated with the (lack of) populace, choose to complain virtually each and every time I post. When someone has an idea, they should post it. It's the classroom bully-type 'you're taking away from the game. Quit posting. You keep trying to make the game easier. Etc.' type responses from said people that don't help. Specifically, Pava tells me this shit on the bbs AND in game. Real cute. Like _I_ have the power to FORCE Shev, Shar, Eilistraee, and the rest of the gang to make the game as I see fit? I think not. My ideas are just as good for consideration as anyone elses. Hell, I even agree that not all have been well thought out. As in necro's getting blind. I hadn't played that class long enough to realize that contagion is pretty damned nice in itself. Short, but nice. Anyway, at least I'm trying. I want the game to be fun, so I post as I do.

It's one thing for some others to disagree. It's just sad that sometimes it ends up personal, however. Making fun of the logic, analogies, . . . . . .and on and on.

The PBase isn't 10% of what it was when I first played here. SOMETHING's not going the way it should. Sure, a lot have moved on in life and have no time for mudding, but TONS of players if you read the bbs' old posts make it quite clear.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:49 pm

Ragorn wrote:Just the number will be fine.

You hit an orc for 8 damage.
An orc swings and misses you.
You attack an orc, but miss.
An orc bludgeons you for 5 damage.

Perfect.


Sorry but that looks so boring to me .. The mystery is part of what kept most of us online for so long .. the more dumbed down it gets the less we want to play .. I miss M1A1 :(

My opinion and noone elses and no offense meant at all ..
"When a child is born, so is a grandmother."

-Italian Proverb
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Postby Gurns » Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:57 am

Thilindel wrote:I want the game to be fun, so I post as I do.

What you have failed to realize is that what you see as "suggestions to make the game more fun", we see as "suggestions which would castrate the game, make it not worth playing, and destroy any remaining fun."

Perhaps you don't see this because you don't recognize some of the different things people can enjoy on a mud. An example from this thread:

Thilindel wrote:Why do we want one person to have to work and take hours and hours to figure these things out?

We don't want one person to do the work, we want everyone to do the work. If they want to know.

Some feel that the mud should reward discovery, even more than fighting. And the players that work to discover things should get the rewards of having done that work. So specific spell info, quest info, maps, knowledge of mobs, gear stats, etc. should be kept as secret as possible, with rewards only to those who discover it themselves.

And some like figuring these things out. If everything is listed in the help files, it precludes the possibility for that accomplishment and enjoyment.

Some like the game to feel real. By showing more numbers, the feeling of reality is reduced, and that possibility for enjoyment is reduced.

I'd like to see fewer numbers rather than more, because that opens up more things people can do, more things people can enjoy on the mud. And because not knowing the exact number doesn't hinder anyone's ability to play the game.

Thilindel wrote:The PBase isn't 10% of what it was when I first played here.

It may well be that your ideas would result in a higher pbase. So what?

I want a good game, a quality game, a game I enjoy playing. That means challenge and reality, as I briefly mentioned in a previous post in this thread. And I want to play with people who enjoy challenge and reality.

I have no urge to play with the kind of people an easy, unreal game would attract, the kind of people for whom convenience is more important than imagination, the kind of people who think getting l00tz is more important than overcoming challenges, the kind of people who want everything hand-fed to them because learning how to play is too much trouble. I have no urge to play with people who don't care whether this is FR, or Generic Fantasy World #53, or whether it's aliens in space, or what, as long as they can "smite mobs".

I think that if 2.0 is good, we'll get more players. But even if we don't, I'd would prefer a good game and a pbase of 5 to a simplistic, convenient game and a pbase of 500.

I doubt you want an easy, simplistic, convenient, boring game, either. A game where there is less and less for players to do. But to me, many of your suggestions sound like they lead in that direction.
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Postby Thilindel » Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:18 am

Nobody seems to pay attention to what seems like true consequence. Like if a demon or golem truly bashed you, it'd do ungodly damage. You shouldn't be standing up after only two rounds, for example. Let alone, it'd knock you senseless and lots more damage than their bashes currently do. Posts like that nobody would reply on. So, the 'logic' in playing this game for realism is quite selective to say the least.

Tailsweeps from dragons should break legs etc, maybe even crush equipment. Wraithform pets somehow get bashed by tailsweeps. You can't kick wraithforms (which was recently changed due to one of my posts), yet you can damage them unarmed. Not a whole lot makes sense. It's hard to find that line of use vs. playability vs. what seems to 'make sense.'

My question is this. Why were there no complaints when spiked stones was added. Why wasn't there an uproar when earth fog was added? Why no mobbing from changing XP from >> to %? Ease of use. We can live in the stone age still (which I must admit I did like seeing M1A1 all those years back :P) But from my view, the _old_ school diehards who had it tough so want the new generations to have it that way as well need to realize that video games change for a reason. Interface needs to be not only user friendly, but also something to steal your imagination. Making friends here helps as well.

But why is it nobody has come forward to explain why there's shotgun details for some files, yet not others? The previous paragraphs should point that out.

Some parts of the mud are entirely too easy. As I said before, mobs can be predicted. That part is so bad, you can play poker or chess in another window. Anyway, I don't wanna focus on the negative because I'm really hoping 2.0 will cure all these factors.
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Postby Mirlantharn » Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:40 am

Thilindel wrote:Some parts of the mud are entirely too easy. As I said before, mobs can be predicted. That part is so bad, you can play poker or chess in another window. Anyway, I don't wanna focus on the negative because I'm really hoping 2.0 will cure all these factors.


Hence, we need better AI.

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Postby Tasan » Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:51 am

Thilindel wrote:My ideas are just as good for consideration as anyone elses... I want the game to be fun, so I post as I do.


They are and we do too. I personally found you posting 10 ideas a day that a) were poorly thought out or explained, or b) infringed on previous ideas that were discussed at length(there is a search function on the bbs). You could post a single post with multiple ideas etc. When all you see is 4 posts from the past day at the top of the list pushing other ideas down... shrug. There's also the idea command in the mud itself for simple ideas that wouldn't require much groupthink to figure out.

As for poking holes in analogies/logic etc. It's very difficult to give someone credibility that doesn't sound credible. Granted... tearing people down, acting like an asshole and generally being a jerk don't give me much credibility either. Part of my New Year's resolution was to cut down the amount of crap I give other people and start listening more than talking. I hope nothing I've said to you was taken personally.
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'



Dlur group-says 'I have a dead horse that I'm dragging down the shaft with my 4 corpses. Anyone want to help me beat it?'



Calladuran: There are other games to play if you want to play with yourself.
Thilindel
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Postby Thilindel » Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:02 pm

Tasan wrote:I hope nothing I've said to you was taken personally.


Oh, so since you made resolutions and I didn't you think you're better than I? You bastard!
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Postby Tasan » Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:38 am

Thilindel wrote:you think you're better than I?


Think?! Know.

Thilindel wrote:You bastard!


What my parents chose to do before my birth has nothing to do with me!
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'



Dlur group-says 'I have a dead horse that I'm dragging down the shaft with my 4 corpses. Anyone want to help me beat it?'



Calladuran: There are other games to play if you want to play with yourself.
Ragorn
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:48 am

Ambar wrote:Sorry but that looks so boring to me .. The mystery is part of what kept most of us online for so long .. the more dumbed down it gets the less we want to play .. I miss M1A1 :(


<> toggle verbose
You will now see numeric notation.

<> toggle verbose
You will now see text notation.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby Tasan » Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:12 am

Ragorn wrote:<> toggle verbose
You will now see numeric notation.

<> toggle verbose
You will now see text notation.


<> toggle enjoyment
You will be assimilated, please download cMUD library Torilmud.pkg and begin your automated session.

<> toggle enjoyment
Your imagination and skill will now be a factor.


[Shevarash] Reboot... NOW!

Copyover by Shevarash.

Will I dream, Shev?
[connection to host lost.]



In all seriousness though, I'll offer up what I thought was the best damage system I've played.

On LH we had limb-based combat. It introduced a lot of interesting things you could do(interesting and poorly implemented). Disabling an arm so it couldn't attack, focusing on the torso for a quicker kill, headshot for stun etc. Now I don't want limb-based combat here, but there was a very cool system for displaying just how much damage you were doing. What was this nifty system? COLOR.

There were 3 different "levels" of damage represented by color. Dark green for weak, dark magenta for medium and dark blue for great damage. Within each of these categories there were 3 sub-levels. Each sub-level was tied to a different actual statement. If I was using a spear I might pierce on one shot and gouge on another, followed with a final stab in that round that did less than the gouge. Each weapon type had essentially 9 different levels of damage which could be displayed, and it made combat actually interesting to watch.

I'm not saying it's the way to go here, but perhaps it's something that could help spice up the system.
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'



Dlur group-says 'I have a dead horse that I'm dragging down the shaft with my 4 corpses. Anyone want to help me beat it?'



Calladuran: There are other games to play if you want to play with yourself.

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