Kirk Cameron is so dreamy.

[Alta]

http://www.wayofthemaster.com/

My mother wanted me to check out this website. No this is not a fake website. So I was watching it thinking: wow that one guy is pretty cute. And come to find out it was Kirk Cameron. I think he was my first crush when I was in like 6th grade. Anyway, the reason I am posting this is I was curious if we have any agnostic/atheists out there who find the things these guys are saying compelling. I am not agnostic but know a few people who are. I am alot better at talking in type than irl, so going out on the streets talking to people is not my forte. I think if these guys were to come up and talk to me, I would feel uncomfortable but not tend to change my beliefs. And these guys are claiming to do that. Just looking for a civil discussion.

[Dalar]

My take is, how is this stuff any different than a cult? Except that some cults aim more at doing radical shit like take your money or kill or whatever.

[Kifle]

I already signed up for their evangelist traning school. I'm trying to get my b.s. in annoying rational people. I hope to intern with some Jehova's witnesses by next fall.

[Ragorn]

I'm atheist, and I find the things he is doing to be corny and ridiculous.

[Alta]

I'm atheist, and I find the things he is doing to be corny and ridiculous.

That's what I thought. I am not atheist and I thought it seemed far fetched that they could win over an atheist with that line of reasoning. But I have never been an atheist so I wondered. I agree with the philosophy of intelligent design (creation) and heaven and hell, I agreed with the facts they presented, yet I didn't see how their approach could cause me to change my idealogy if it were different.

And Kifle, because I doubt you are part of the Annoited 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses bound for heaven, you best stick to your day job of training to be a lawyer (as you believe it is a hell-bound profession anyway.)

[ssar]

Examined the webpage for about 20 seconds, scanned some of the sections, pics, closed it, never will go there again.

What a waste of resources.

[Thilindel]

Heaven/Hell is a bullshit concept anyway. What idiot programmed some sparse human population into tricking the lesser intelligent ones that they must recognize some god as the savior and blah blah, while if not, you go straight to hell. But remember - he loves you.

The same fanatic morons run around citing hand selected crap from the bible, while leaving other bullshit, like stoning the disobedient children out from the routine. Anyway, life is life, per se. Yet humans think that 'oh aliens are crazy.' WHILE saying 'yes, god is powerful and oh my, i better worship him because I'm afraid I'll rot in hell.' Most people I've met think that only humans go to heaven. Ok, then. Humans aren't even 1% of the timeline of the universe so far. So where the hell was heaven prior to cavemen? *roll*

I sooo don't believe pedophiles, rapists, murderers, and other complete assholes will go to any designated areas after this realm of life - although they should (and hopefully do) Along with that line of bullshit are the people who cite 'oh, god gives tests, or it's gods will, etc.' So things that are traumatic are a lesson in life. Well, what kind of god gives a child a test that involves rape? Only miracles are god. While eeeevil is what? god jerking off in the corner and forgetting to watch the lambs from the wolves?

And yes, I'm being civil :P

Cite me any 'for profit' religion leader who isn't a purebred prick. The ones who sacrifice and ask for nothing are the ones in my book who, if possible, should get better life . . or death. The fools on TV who say 'just send in fitty dollaz.' should go straight to hell. Why is it churches are soooo overdone in the first place? *shrug* Woot! I didn't cuss too much. Thank ya jesus!

Lastly, and again, I direct ones with FREE THOUGHT to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_0YKjNZLDQ
..part 2 and 3 are linked on the right.

Logic - 1 Biblebullshit - 0

[Gormal]

You're not being civil in the least. You're playing the angry internet aethiest and its really quite stupid. So some people choose to believe in a higher power, what's your beef? The majority of religious people that try to publicly spread their message do it because they want to help people as they feel that they've been helped. You're just being a bigot. I'm agnostic and I don't think that all churches and belief systems are good, but I don't feel the need to insult someone's most fundamental right to believe in what they choose.

This is a climax of what's been a string of extremely shitty posting from you lately, Thil. You need to think before you hit that post button, because its getting out of hand.

Also: I like Penn and Teller but that sketch is pretty lame. Its just a shock value piece with them throwing bibles around and cursing so people like you can beat your chest and roar at the evil ignorant blind sucker Christians.

[Kifle]

Yeah, sorry, but that wasn't civil in the least. I'm a buddhist, but I don't find the western religions to be nearly as bad as you make them out to be. The ideas of heaven and hell are not exactly that crazy -- especially if you use the argument that you did. I love my children more than anything in this world; however, I punish them when they do stupid things based on my time-frame, how severe their crimes are, etc. Why wouldn't a god that loves his creations do the same thing? So just because he loves humanity, he's not allowed to punish them? Also, punishment in hell is not a permanent/eternal thing either. Jews aren't sure whether there is a heaven or hell, and the Christian half of the bible is never particularly clear on what hell or heaven is, so I'm assuming you're basing your tantrum on pure ignorance propagated namely by angry internet athiests as gormal calls them.

As far as citing hand-selected crap, that's a flaw in those people and the ones they choose to learn the religious tenets from. You're most likely thinking of the old testement and Christians, excluding the 10 commandments, are only supposed to follow the teachings of christ -- mainly the mitzvot of compassion and charity.

As far as your child being raped scenerio, you are making the mistake many non-religious people do. You forget to factor in that gods of many religions, including christianity, do not operate by the same HUMAN-created ethical systems. We put rape at a higher level than, say, trying to tear down someone's personal beliefs in an attempt to feel better about one's own beliefs. In the Christian religion, and others, sins are sins regardless of their manifestations -- there are no degrees. Regarding why this happens, there are a few explainations, but I doubt it would matter if I laid them out for you because it is obvious that you have a hatred towards religion regardless of whether or not it is the people who ruin them rather than the religion itself. It is not christianity's fault that there are benny hin's, Haggy's, etc. That is humanity -- and capitalism if you want to split hairs.

As for your "free thought," I find what you did there eerily similar to a southpark episode I recently watched -- the one concerning emos and them condemning everyone else around them to being "conformists." If you direct someone towards "free thought," it is no longer free thought. The whole concept you've given us is a contradiction and to anybody with two working brain cells, it is nothing better than what you typed out in your cry for help.

Think for yourself and stop watching internet videos for your arguments.

[Ragorn]

Actually, traditional Christianity is pretty clear on the concept that hell is a permanent state. It's often referred to as "eternal tormet" or "an eternity in the absence of God."

That said, I choose not to get involved in religious flamewars. I was a devout Christian until I was 18, and then I made my own informed decision to abandon my religion. I'm very secure in my own beliefs, and I don't feel it's necessary to try to proseltyze or "deconvert" practicing Christians.

And for the angry internet atheists out there, just remember: You can't reason someone out of a position that they weren't reasoned into. Arguing logic vs. religion is a futile effort, partly because religion preaches that logic, facts, and evidence are secondary to faith. There's really no point in arguing.

[Thilindel]

And Kifle, because I doubt you are part of the Annoited 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses bound for heaven, you best stick to your day job of training to be a lawyer (as you believe it is a hell-bound profession anyway.)

I'm not angry at all. It's that type mentality that 'Oh, I'm going to heaven. I'll pray for you.' and all the condescending crap that is hard to listen to. Also, my neighbor was a baptist priest. I get sick of how the -free ticket to heaven-, meanwhile they judge everybody else and try to tell them they won't go to heaven because how you are doesn't meet THEIR standards. Who the hell are they to judge?

[Thilindel]

Oh, and Gormal, at least my rants didn't get Shar to quit on the board :P

[Kifle]

Actually, traditional Christianity is pretty clear on the concept that hell is a permanent state. It's often referred to as "eternal tormet" or "an eternity in the absence of God."

It all depends on the translation you're reading. The term hell in the new testement is really a translation from two (maybe three) different words meaning completely different things. Gehenna, which is the bastardization of a similar Jewish term is what you find in some passages of revelations while you'll find Hades (hellenization of another jewish word "sheol" or something close to it) which is loosely translated as "grave;" however, in virtually all new testement translations you'll see these as translated interpretly instead of directly by giving them the same name: hell. To understand the writings in mathew, mark, luke, revelations, and some of paul's letters, you'd be forced to incorporate this historic context regarding not only the theme of the books, but also the way in which they were written.

Bottom line: the true Christian concept of hell, regardless of how it is taught these days in churches, is completely inconclusive as to whether it is temporary or eternal -- it actually varies between books and authors in the original writings before modern translation (modern meaning post 3rd century CE).

[Thilindel]

I wanted to add that free thought is just that. The vids of Penn&Teller are just better explained, but to the same tone that I put forth earlier.

I generally don't like religion because of human nature, for the ones who believe god does this and that and needs hailing, in that people exaggerate too damned much. God saves this person, yet if something bad happens to someone, then "it must have been his time or gods plan, etc."

Good example is how boxers almost always thank god for looking out for them. Why does this happen? Hrm, another is Diego Sanchez. He's always thanking god. So is it someone like this' belief that god wants him to further the spawning of religion by beating the crap out of others in order to gain recognition? I really doubt it. But it's the human nature of god this and that which drives me away.

I'm not atheist at all. I think something clearly happened. I see how humans make robots just the same. Robots don't need to patronize their creator(s) in order to end up in a better junk yard. We don't "send" other robots to inform the existing ones that we, as creators, better be accepted and praised. I'm also fine with others belief if it makes them happy. The "god" feeling they get is their own mind's peace in happiness and tranquility, however. Not some deity's reward.

I didn't need to worship some god or adopt my little guy just because he was in a wheelchair, out of fear if I didn't do good things, I'd eat hell. I've never stolen. I've never drunk alcohol. I've never cheated in a relationship. I could care less in doing the church routine, too. I don't enjoy some pastor's claims to god, be it a funeral, a wedding, or whatever. Nobody can read a few paragraphs and think they know someone else. I find that people who do things, then claim it was god that -helped- them should realize they did the deed themselves, and are stronger for it.

[Kifle]

See, all those things are not exclusive to religion; they are exclusive to what christianity has turned into for most. Judaism is nothing like that in the slightest. You also have to realize that there's a progressive movement in the christian world to where they are doing away with a lot of what you seem to hate about the religion. And this is nothing to say of the eastern religions or Islam. It seems you're stereotyping religion just like racists do for the races they hate. They see a black rapper, the odd shows on the wb, and run into a few obnoxious black people in a theatre and think they're all like that -- which in turn makes them hate or dislike them. I'm in no way a christian, but it seems to me that you're selling them short based on the limited number of christians you've crossed paths with in your life.

[Branthur]

So, funny story. We had Jehovah's Witnesses knock on our door a couple days ago.
...
...
...
...
...
I live on campus at an ELCA Lutheran Seminary. I wonder if they get bonus points if they convert one of the MDiv students? :)

And Thil? I won't even bother going into what I agree with or don't agree with when it comes to your rantings. And yes, I do even agree with some of it. My theology is primarily Lutheran, but I won't claim to agree with all of it. However, it seems to me that your complaint isn't truly with religion, it is with human nature.

I generally don't like religion because of human nature...

Yes, I'm taking that somewhat out of context from the rest of what you said, but isn't that what one of your main problems is? It is how people use religion to their own purpose, how some people think that they are better because they think a certain way....oh wait, isn't that what you are doing? If not, it sure seems that way from what you're saying. You're better because you don't believe in religion. You're better because you <insert reason from your previous post here>.

Oh, and the Penn and Teller video? Really? That's the best you can do? People have disagreed on theology for thousands of years. Why do you think there are so many different versions of Christianity? For someone to say "it's not true" isn't exactly ground-breaking. And please note, I am not saying that anyone who doesn't believe in Christianity is wrong. That is just what they believe. And I'm with Gormal - I generally like Penn and Teller. This was some of their weakest material.

[Thilindel]

I quoted the video cuz it's the first large audience video I'd ever seen of someone talkin smack about the bible :P That's what I tried to say earlier is that the video hits on some funny stuff. It seems to touch on the most common selective quotes the fanatics put forth.

I more like P&T when they are addressing Nostradameus and others who claim to read the future.

[Yasden]

Kirk Cameron is a tard. I hated him even in Growing Pains. Ben (Jeremy Miller) was always the best character in that show.

I have similar views to Thil's. I'm atheist. However, I try to avoid religious discussion on here or on the OOC lines simply because I know the things I can say about the subject can be caustic and downright mean.

You'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar, man.