Argument for everyone paying taxes.

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kiryan
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Argument for everyone paying taxes.

Postby kiryan » Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:08 pm

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123958260423012269.html

Its a good read, but something you should keep in mind is that this is looking at income taxes... Federal income taxes. If you make 30k a year, you aren't paying 0 in taxes, just 0 to the feds. You're most likely paying sales tax, property tax, beer and cigarette taxes, soda deposit taxes, and all sorts of government "fees" which are basically taxes too and they are a much larger % of your income when you make 30k than when you make 300k. Even state funded lotteries are basically a "regressive" tax (regressive meaning affects poor more than rich).

You'd be an idiot ot read this article and blindly go on a tax crusade to lower taxes for the rich, but I like the final suggestions. If everyone had to pay taxes (instead of 30-40-60% of us voting that rich people should pay taxes) then maybe more people would be concerned about what government is spending money.

-- some random quotes

the 10% of the country that makes more than $92,400 a year -- pay 72.4% of the nation's income taxes.

As a result of the 2001 tax cuts enacted by a bipartisan Congress and signed by President George W. Bush, the share of taxes paid by the top 10% increased to 72.8% in 2005 from 67.8% in 2001

According to the CBO, those who made less than $44,300 in 2001 -- 60% of the country -- paid a paltry 3.3% of all income taxes. By 2005, almost all of them were excused from paying any income tax.

When you make almost 26% of the income and you pay only 0.6% of the income tax, that's a good deal, courtesy of those who do pay income taxes. For the bottom 40%, the redistribution deal is even better. In 2001, these 43 million Americans, who earn less than $30,500, made 13.5% of the nation's income but paid no income tax. Instead, they received checks from their taxpaying neighbors worth $16.3 billion. By 2005, those checks totaled $33.3 billion.
Ragorn
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Re: Argument for everyone paying taxes.

Postby Ragorn » Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:00 am

I pretty much call bullshit on every number you just posted.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
teflor the ranger
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Re: Argument for everyone paying taxes.

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:01 am

Sure you can, but only if you apply the standards you use for most of the stuff you post.
Teflor does. Teflor does not.
kiryan
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Re: Argument for everyone paying taxes.

Postby kiryan » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:55 pm

those aren't my #s. Those are #s from an article the WSJ deemed legitimate enough to print, albeit an opinion piece.
Lathander
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Re: Argument for everyone paying taxes.

Postby Lathander » Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:56 am

Those numbers are actually correct. The reason is because you lower the cost to move capital, more folks with capital will move it (take capital gains) to other investments. While the individual % per dollar goes down, you get alot more dollars moving. That help it make more sense?
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Re: Argument for everyone paying taxes.

Postby Corth » Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:32 am

Everyone should pay at least some portion of their income towards federal income tax. Even if its just a couple percent. Its important that everyone have a stake in the game. Its the difference between being a freeloader and being a contributor.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
kiryan
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Re: Argument for everyone paying taxes.

Postby kiryan » Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:36 pm

I agree we should all pay some income tax no matter how poor. I even think it should be the same % across the board and capped.

I'd like to see government services not be fee based anymore. This is a regressive tax. Its amazing that we accept that we pay taxes to fund government then we pay for the specific services as we need them.

I still think its possible poor people may pay a higher percentage in total taxes than is reflected in the Federal income tax statistics because of fees and sales taxes.
Ragorn
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Re: Argument for everyone paying taxes.

Postby Ragorn » Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:28 pm

I agree we should all pay some income tax no matter how poor.

So you favor tax increases on the poor? Good luck getting elected on that platform ;) That was a joke, no need to drag it into the conversation.

Sales tax is a regressive tax, in the sense that poor people utilize more of their income on taxable purchases than rich people do. I don't oppose a relatively low sales tax, however, because the concept of a tax based on consumption has merit. It can't be used as a primary means of income generation, however, simply BECAUSE it is a regressive tax.

Social Security is also a regressive tax for reasons I don't completely understand. The CBO figures you referenced indicate that people in the bottom three income quintiles pay out about 8-9% of their gross income to SS tax, but the upper two quintiles pay significantly less than that (4%?). I don't know why that is. It strikes me as odd.

And no, I don't support the Flat Tax. I heavily support progressive taxation. You ain't starving if your 250,001st dollar is taxed a little higher than the one before it.
- Ragorn
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Re: Argument for everyone paying taxes.

Postby Corth » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:51 pm

Ragorn wrote:Social Security is also a regressive tax for reasons I don't completely understand. The CBO figures you referenced indicate that people in the bottom three income quintiles pay out about 8-9% of their gross income to SS tax, but the upper two quintiles pay significantly less than that (4%?). I don't know why that is. It strikes me as odd.


It goes back to the history of the SS program. It was not meant to be a redistribution of income, essentially a welfare program, but rather a forced savings mechanism. Thats why Bill Gates, when he is old enough, will collect SS. The theory is that everyone is paying for their own proceeds.

Unfortunately, nobody forced the government to save the money flowing into the so-called Social Security Trust Fund. What has happened for the past, hrmm 60 years or so, is the government borrows the SS money from the trust fund, gives the trust fund an IOU, and then spends the money on whatever it is that the government spends money on. So essentially this forced savings which sounds nice in theory is now a huge liability of all taxpayers. We will have to work our ass off to repay this debt to.. ourselves.

Only way this will work out is through inflation. Lots of it. The only question is when.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Lathander
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Re: Argument for everyone paying taxes.

Postby Lathander » Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:36 am

Right Corth.

The Social Security fund has been used to mask the true governement deficit which soon will turn the other way as SS takes in less than it pays out. The idea of Social Security is that it is roughly tied to how many quarters you work and how much you earned. The reason for the FICA cap on earnings is because you do not earn any additional benefit above the cap. Not being forced to pay into something that pays no benefit to you makes sense to me.
teflor the ranger
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Re: Argument for everyone paying taxes.

Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:38 pm

Ragorn wrote:Social Security is also a regressive tax for reasons I don't completely understand.


Because the middle class benefits from it the most. (collectively)
Teflor does. Teflor does not.

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