Politicans to American people, calm down?

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Sarvis
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby Sarvis » Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:37 pm

kiryan wrote:despite Sarvis' stupid don't hurt hannah post.


You know Kiryan, one of your biggest problems in trying to convey anything in a manner which would make us care to listen is a complete lack of attention to detail. For instance, mispelling someone's name by adding several extra letters. I really don't get how people manage something like this, it's not hard... her name is 4 letters and you've ONLY ever seen it written so how could you mess it up? One of my friends does that too, and she's perhaps the most ditzy person I've ever met. So you're certainly in good company! :P


If I was going to go Tim McVeigh on the USA,


A few weeks ago you posted that you felt like flying an airplane into a building, and this week you posted how you think we should start a revolution because our side passed some legislation. Step back a bit and think about that for a few minutes.

You may know you won't do anything drastic, but no one else does. Good thing for you Bush wasn't "smart enough" to infringe our freedoms by creating a department monitoring obscure BBS threads, or you'd probably have a black SUV sitting in front of your house by now. Just don't say any of this shit on the phone, considering the whole warrantless wiretapping thing.

(I LOVE how it's only a problem when the Democrats do something, but when Bush _actually_ takes away your rights it's just supporting America!)


There is a point where people decide revolution is the proper course.


Yes, usually when they are starving. See, things are pretty good right now. No revolution for you, sorry!

I'm going on record saying I think its justifiable today. I won't personally be involved in any violence or "materially support" it, but I won't condemn those who do.


Of course not. Why would you care if people get killed over petty ideological differences? Your party lost the vote, and did not retain enough power to be effective. Worse yet, they were not willing to work with the party that IS in power in any way, shape or form. I can see why you are a Republican, you share with them a very distinct lack of respect for anyone but yourself and your own greed. You lost. You were outvoted. The majority spoke and elected the Democrats to do exactly what they did. You want to do better next time? No, you don't. You want to take your ball and go home, or hurt people, or lash out.

Republicans lost the election fair and square, however this clearly crosses a line.


What line? The people in power did their job. We voted for them, they enacted legislation. It was even in their platform for getting elected. If they HADN'T pushed this bill through? You'd be calling them out for being ineffective despite having a majority. You are not being reasonable, you are not supporting America, you are being small minded and petty. You are throwing a temper tantrum. The Republicans are encouraging this, by the way, in a bid to gain more power in the next election. They are casting this bill in the worst light possible, after refusing to negotiate on it, and despite it containing provisions the Republicans themselves supported before Obama came along, so that you will be pissed off and motivated to vote Republican in November.

You are being manipulated by the Republicans.

Do you want to go on record saying healthcare reform was passed responsibly and tell me how proud you are of how Obama and the Democrats pulled this off?


Yes. They kept a campaign promise despite Republican pettiness. The bill itself could be better, but it's a start towards what we elected them to do. Sorry we had to do it despite you, but you care more about being "right" than about improving the country.



I'm not proud of the collosal waste of time the monica lewinsky scandal was.


Despite just using it to prove how bad Democrats were? :roll:

Are you proud of what your party is doing has done to the poltiical landscape?


Getting something done for a change? Yes, quite nice actually.

Do you expect the GOP to just roll over and play dead?


No, I expect them to throw a temper tantrum (like they are now) and stir up as much shit using hyperbole, lies and propaganda as they can in order to regain power. That's all they care about. They don't even pay lip service to improving the lives of Americans anymore. They don't even pay lip service to small government, fiscal responsibility or anything else that they should be. They care only about getting power, manipulating you, and feeding their own incessant greed.

The Democrats did what they said they would do.

The Republicans, in 8 years of Congress, only increased our debt, increased the size of our government, and lied to you repeatedly.


If Democrats had actually reached out and governed from the center, we would have the change Obama promised. No, Obama and the Democrats charged a very leftist course and said we don't need you, support us or we'll just do whatever we want anyway and when Scott Brown got elected they said now we'll just win by any and all means necessary.


You're either with us or against us? Sounds familiar somehow.

On the other hand, I've been considering backtracking and just going with the flow because I'm not really happy with where I am today. I don't like being this angry and pissed off.


But if you're not angry and pissed off how will you be a good little tool for the Republicans? How will they manipulate you into keeping them in power? How will they use your riots as propaganda to show how unpopular this healthcare bill is when they are running campaign ads in a few months?

Come on, man! Get pissed off, use your anger, create a scene! Make sure there are camera's nearby though, and have some good one liners ready. Otherwise you won't make for good propaganda!


As a Christian it really doesn't matter what government you live under so why am I putting so much energy into worrying whether I'm forced to buy health insurance, stop drinking soda ect. None of this stuff is really important in the grand scheme of things and I'm probably taking it to the point of idolatry. Man I really hate being regulated by the government.


You really hate what Republicans tell you to hate. I didn't see you this pissed off when the government was actively spying on it's own citizens. You want to talk about regulation? The Bush administration violated the constitution to go 1984 on us, and you get pissed off because the Democrats passed a bill using perfectly legal means.

Wake the FUCK up.
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby Ragorn » Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:07 pm

kiryan wrote:I have never supported the patriot bill. I think it was woefully irresponsible of Bush to engage in two wars without the necessary reduction in spending (guns and butter). I hate that the republicans were responsible for growing government intrustion through this and NCLB. I hate the so called homeland security department / secret service / kgb whatever you want to call it. Bush really screwed America over in these regards. He took dictatorial powers in the name of national security interests.

But you feel that violence over health care reform is justified.

The government ACTUALLY passed a bill that makes it LEGAL for them to not only wiretap your phones with no probable cause, but CAPTURE and DETAIN AMERICAN CITIZENS with NO PROOF OF CHARGES.

And you're advocating violence about health care?

The government pulled a bait and switch on you. They lied about weapons of mass destruction in order to garner public support for a war against a country that had NOTHING TO DO with 9/11. They fabricated evidence, they silenced opponents, they openly and unabashedly LIED to the American people.

And you're fired up about health care.

George Bush violated the Constitution by engaging in warfare with a country against whom Congress had not actually declared war. He unilaterally engaged in military action against the judgement of the ENTIRE REST OF THE WORLD. Your government condoned and advocated torture of both American citizens and war prisoners, many of whom turned out to be innocent. Your government created offshore torture camps where American citizens were detailed for YEARS with no trial and no formal charges.

And you're mad because of health care.

Kiryan, you're a partisan nutjob in the worst possible way. You spent 8 years excusing and justifying Republican legislation that turned our national surplus into a deficit so we could drop bombs on brown people, but when it comes time to send our own citizens to the doctor, you're pissed to hell because it's a Democrat who proposed the idea. You're a Christian who promotes war and violent rebellion while opposing plans to heal the sick because you have to pay for it.

I think I have to put you on ignore soon. If I don't, I'm going to start violating the rules of the forum.
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby Sarvis » Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:13 pm

Ragorn wrote:I think I have to put you on ignore soon. If I don't, I'm going to start violating the rules of the forum.



Haha... remember a couple weeks ago when people said I might have problems for disliking Kiryan? ;)
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby Sarvis » Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:26 pm

Actually Rags, with all the anger and venom going around out there... you should send that post to a newspaper or something and try to get it published.
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby Tanras » Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:11 pm

From my perspective, all three of you are about equally nutjob but in different directions. Srsly :)
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby Sarvis » Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:23 pm

Really? I mean me, sure... but Rags? I thought he was the sane one...
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby kiryan » Fri Apr 02, 2010 4:49 pm

We're just sour grapes huh, don't be ridiculous. This is different, these are new lows for politics and perhaps this is the response to the GWB years, but Obama and the Democrats have escalated partsianship. Democrats bear as much blame for any ensuing violence as Republicans.

The patriot bill passed 98 - 2? The renewal passed and Obama signed it?

The difference is being spied upon does not affect our daily life the same way that healthcare reform and the assault on capitalism does.

The difference with healthcare reform is half or more of America doesn't want it. Repeatedly spoke out against it and were ignored. Half of America made this choice for the other half. That is tyranny of the majority and is exactly why there is a filibuster.

The difference with healthcare reform is the bribes paid to pass it and the crazy machinations they choose to employ because they couldn't pass it the normal way. Obama and his cohorts have brought change to Washington, but its change for the worse. I never thought the GWB years would look civil in comparison to anything. GREAT JOB OBAMA.
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby Sarvis » Fri Apr 02, 2010 4:53 pm

kiryan wrote:The difference is being spied upon does not affect our daily life the same way that healthcare reform and the assault on capitalism does.


Tell that to Winston Smith.
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby kiryan » Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:05 pm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/04/ ... 6567.shtml

LOL. Obama is such a hippocrite. He says in an interview, he is "concerned about a political climate in which the other side is demonized" - an observation meant for both Republicans and Democrats.

He's responsible for it. He directly gave the order to buy Nelson's vote. He forged on with healthcare AFTER a Brown beat the pants off Coakely in a Democratic stronghold running specifically against this healthcare bill.

Seriously? calm down? Sure you want calm down now, after months of spreading vitriol over healthcare insurance companies and banks (giving his union favorite automakers a pass). We're not going to calm down, we're going to get angrier and angrier until you start listening. If scott brown wasn't a message, I don't know what is.
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby Sarvis » Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:26 pm

kiryan wrote:He's responsible for it.


Really? If someone makes a controversial decision he is responsible for the reaction to it?
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby Tanras » Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:32 pm

Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:He's responsible for it.


Really? If someone makes a controversial decision he is responsible for the reaction to it?



I would say he is partially responsible for it, yeah. If you punch someone in the face, it is your fault if you get kicked in the balls in retalliation. . .at least partially.
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby kiryan » Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:35 pm

Yes, if I punch you in the face, Americans agree that you have the right to beat the living shit out of me. If I beat the shit out of you, I'm looked down upon for an unprovoked attack.

So yes. Obama is responsible for it especially since it wasn't some surprise reaction (except in his own personal echo chamber). The polls are out there, the protests are out there, A DAMN REPUBLICAN GOT ELECTED IN MASSACHUSESTS TO TED KENNEDY'S SEAT. When you ignore all the warning signs, you are responsible by negligence for the results.
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby avak » Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:44 pm

This should all be settled in November then, right?
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby Sarvis » Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:10 pm

kiryan wrote:Yes, if I punch you in the face, Americans agree that you have the right to beat the living shit out of me. If I beat the shit out of you, I'm looked down upon for an unprovoked attack.

So yes. Obama is responsible for it especially since it wasn't some surprise reaction (except in his own personal echo chamber). The polls are out there, the protests are out there, A DAMN REPUBLICAN GOT ELECTED IN MASSACHUSESTS TO TED KENNEDY'S SEAT. When you ignore all the warning signs, you are responsible by negligence for the results.



So then 9/11 was our fault because we made the decision to support Israel?
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby Tanras » Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:23 pm

Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:Yes, if I punch you in the face, Americans agree that you have the right to beat the living shit out of me. If I beat the shit out of you, I'm looked down upon for an unprovoked attack.

So yes. Obama is responsible for it especially since it wasn't some surprise reaction (except in his own personal echo chamber). The polls are out there, the protests are out there, A DAMN REPUBLICAN GOT ELECTED IN MASSACHUSESTS TO TED KENNEDY'S SEAT. When you ignore all the warning signs, you are responsible by negligence for the results.



So then 9/11 was our fault because we made the decision to support Israel?


Before today, I am not sure that I believed anyone could make a logic leap quite that large :)

It is reasonable to assume retaliation of ball kicking due to a face punch. I think it is reasonable to assume serious backlash to extremely unpopular bills. I think it is far less reasonable to connect support of a foreign country to a direct terrorist attack on thousands of innocent civilians, but you are free to disagree with that assessment; I will just consider you extremely stupid if you do.
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby Todrael » Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:27 pm

kiryan wrote:Obama and the Democrats have escalated partsianship

You lie!
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby Sarvis » Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:30 pm

We are supporting one country against another. It is a decision we made, and the Middle East had a violent reaction to that decision.

There is no difference other than the degree of the original decision and the degree of the response.

Punch -> Kick
Healthcare Bill -> Threats
Support Israel -> Terrorist Attack

Bin Laden even made a speech citing our support of Israel as the reason for the attack.

Personally, I do NOT believe we are responsible for 9/11. I believe in personal responsibility, and to me that means the person kicking, threatening or attacking is responsible for how they react to a situation they do not like.

Similarly, Kiryan and Teflor are not responsible for me flying off the handle at times. I am responsible for failing to control my temper.

Obama is not responsible for Republicans threatening violence. Kiryan IS responsible for how he has chosen to react to the bill getting passed.
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby Tanras » Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:39 pm

yeah, I'll buy that.

Obama is not responsible for it, but he is smart enough to know it was coming. No huge surprises here.
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby Ragorn » Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:17 pm

kiryan wrote:The difference is being spied upon does not affect our daily life the same way that healthcare reform and the assault on capitalism does.

I think this comment changes my perspective of you. I don't think you're here to argue anymore, I think you're here to troll, the same way teflor does. I don't think you actually believe the arguments put forth, I think you just say whichever thing you think will get you the most violent reaction.

You're either trolling, lying, or unflinchingly biased enough to be dismissable. It's unfortunate that it took me this long to catch on, but to be fair to myself, I haven't read anything you've posted with a serious eye for about a month.

That said, your reaction is going to be hilarious when Obama gets re-elected in 2012 :o)
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby kiryan » Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:38 pm

Maybe I am here to troll, but I'm moving on. I really am pissed off and that energy is probably affecting my posts lately. Regardless, its time to do something more active, to get elected or to get people who believe in freedom elected.

I like to think November 2010 is a sure thing for Republicans, but I'm cautious. A lot could change, primarily the economy but also Dems running on immigration could cause enough energy to maintain power. 2012 is far too long to predict, usually presidents come out with guns blazing then become less controversial in preparation for re-election.

--

Sarvis, so I take it then you disagree with the Democrat position that the republicans are inciting violence against them? and that Limbaugh and Beck are not responsible for anything either. The jihadist Imams who recruit and encourage folks to be suicide bombers?
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby Sarvis » Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:42 pm

kiryan wrote: people who believe in freedom elected.


People who believe in freedom don't generally think it's ok for the Government to watch their every move. Just a tip for your campaign.


Sarvis, so I take it then you disagree with the Democrat position that the republicans are inciting violence against them? and that Limbaugh and Beck are not responsible for anything either. The jihadist Imams who recruit and encourage folks to be suicide bombers?


No, the Republicans have and are inciting violence. They made a choice to do that. Individuals are making a separate choice, influenced by that manipulation, to become violent or not violent.

In the end, a murderer does NOT get get out of punishment because someone else told him to pull the trigger.
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby kiryan » Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:50 pm

so are individuals responsible for the actions of others or not sarvis. I made the argument obama is responsible for the reaction, you said no. Now you say yes, republicans leaders are responsible for inciting republican followers.

I don't think the patriot act is a good thing. I think the patriot act was a gross violation of the constitution and our republican principles. I think it should be repealed. Just because it is and a republican did it, does not mean I can't attack healthcare reform for the same reasons. you only win with an argument like that in debate club. both are wrong, I'm just more pissed off about healthcare reform for many reasons some of which are probably that because a democrat did it. so what, its still sick and wrong.
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby avak » Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:54 pm

So let me get this straight...there is an unprecedented imminent "revolution" on the horizon due to the arrogance and tyranny of the democrats, but Obama could get reelected if they angle with immigration????????????

More likely Ragorn is accurate in pointing out the absurdity of these comments and Kiryan is hedging against the inevitable.

Kiryan, your biggest mistake is incorrectly identifying the silent majority.
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby Sarvis » Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:59 pm

kiryan wrote:so are individuals responsible for the actions of others or not sarvis. I made the argument obama is responsible for the reaction, you said no. Now you say yes, republicans leaders are responsible for inciting republican followers.


Wow, you really are trolling aren't you?

1) I said the Republicans were responsible for telling people to be violent.
2) I said it was up to each individual to make that decision on their own
3) There is a HUGE fucking difference between telling someone to do something, and making a decision.

Obama made a decision and got some legislation passed. Republicans told people to get violent, spread misinformation to help that along, and then blamed Democrats.

If you can't see the fucking difference there is literally no hope for you.

I don't think the patriot act is a good thing. I think the patriot act was a gross violation of the constitution and our republican principles. I think it should be repealed. Just because it is and a republican did it, does not mean I can't attack healthcare reform for the same reasons. you only win with an argument like that in debate club. both are wrong, I'm just more pissed off about healthcare reform for many reasons some of which are probably that because a democrat did it. so what, its still sick and wrong.


So you think it's right to be more pissed off because of who passed legislation than because of it's actual effects?

Oh, by the way, the provision forcing people to buy insurance? That was a Republican idea.

Maybe you shouldn't be so pissed after all. After all, it was your teams idea.

EDIT: Oh, and I'm with Rags. I'm as done with your BS as I am with Teflor's. You can look forward to the occasional drunken post, I guess.
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby kiryan » Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:09 pm

I agree its possible I have mis-identified the mainstream position. November going against Republicans will temper my positions as I currently believe conservative ideals are held by roughly half the US and they have been grossly trampled over as the result of a fluke election in 2008. That is a big part of what is making me angry.

Its a valid hedge. Turning millions of illegal immigrants voting citizens will have a tremendous impact on politics in favor of Democrats. I don't think there is enough energy in that issue alone to change 2010. Obama himself declared last year that those who supported him because of immigration reform and the homo agenda are probably going to be pretty happy with his administration before he leaves office. He'd be a fool to push that stuff off into 2011 because if he loses the house in 2010, he ain't getting shit done other than maybe an executive order to stop enforcing DADT. On the other hand if he loses the house, he can run in 2012 on reforming immigration and maybe use the pendulum to sweep himself and Democrats into office again.

There are a lot of factors that can work against a GOP landslide in 2010. Michael Steele is probably a bigger enemy for Republicans than Obama. The whole bondage night club expense is disgusting. blah blah blha he didn't know whatever, but did you hear his comments where he basically said hes for the kind of homosexuality that is 2 chicks? this is the chairman of the RNC? we can lose in 2010 despite the tail wind, thats not hedging, its realistic.
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby avak » Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:56 pm

Well, that is fair enough...I don't know that I agree, but those points make sense.

Kiryan, you should read Don't Think of an Elephant by George Lakoff. It is about issue framing in politics. Quick read, very informative.
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby Todrael » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:47 pm

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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby kiryan » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:24 pm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/04/ ... tag=latest

This article is a little better, it goes into why polarization is bad for democracy. It discusses trends in Republican and Democrat parties away from the middle that have been building for a while.

--

also after stewing about this for a week, I'm recanting on getting into politics. I don't want to put the time and energy into it at the expense of family and religion. I am also re-evaluating the importance of politics in my life and hte passion I feel for it. I put more time and energy into political discussions than I do praying, reading and sharing the Bible. That strikes me as idolatrous and probably needs to change.

I probably need to recant my support for violence, but I can't quite bring myself to say it yet. I concede that violence is not compatible with my Christian values and principles, but there is an aspect of my government philosophy world view that still feels violence is justifiable and natural result of where politics are today. Another way to think about it is I am not able to personally engage in violent expression given the primacy of my Christian philosophy and my circumstances in life, but I support those that do based on my philosophy of government.
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby kiryan » Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:59 pm

agree tanras. obama and the progressives which look at the constitution as a hinderance instead of protection. A document of negative rights, what government can't do vs what government must do (like provide healthcare).

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04 ... ing-media/

Bill clinton warns about right wing extremism and argues that republicans and conservative media will be for blame if there is another oklahoma city bombing... Sure bill, forget completely that this intensified throughout the healthcare debate and erupted when the democrats pushed a massive bill that will fundamentally change life in America with only democrat votes.

No shit when you govern from the left, ignoring the other ~50% of America, more than a few people are pissed off enough to actually start killing you.

Oh and poor lawmakers, receiving threats. Does that mean they are listening to their constituents now? I mean I guess they heard nothing during the debate, the town halls, but now that its over and there are threats, suddenly they figured out how to hit play on their voice mail machiens and email boxes. will wonders never cease.
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby Sarvis » Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:21 pm

kiryan wrote:agree tanras. obama and the progressives which look at the constitution as a hinderance instead of protection. A document of negative rights, what government can't do vs what government must do (like provide healthcare).

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04 ... ing-media/

Bill clinton warns about right wing extremism and argues that republicans and conservative media will be for blame if there is another oklahoma city bombing... Sure bill, forget completely that this intensified throughout the healthcare debate and erupted when the democrats pushed a massive bill that will fundamentally change life in America with only democrat votes.

No shit when you govern from the left, ignoring the other ~50% of America, more than a few people are pissed off enough to actually start killing you.

Oh and poor lawmakers, receiving threats. Does that mean they are listening to their constituents now? I mean I guess they heard nothing during the debate, the town halls, but now that its over and there are threats, suddenly they figured out how to hit play on their voice mail machiens and email boxes. will wonders never cease.



I'm so glad that if I ever punch you, you'll admit it's your own fault.
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Re: Politicans to American people, calm down?

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:33 am

Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:agree tanras. obama and the progressives which look at the constitution as a hinderance instead of protection. A document of negative rights, what government can't do vs what government must do (like provide healthcare).

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04 ... ing-media/

Bill clinton warns about right wing extremism and argues that republicans and conservative media will be for blame if there is another oklahoma city bombing... Sure bill, forget completely that this intensified throughout the healthcare debate and erupted when the democrats pushed a massive bill that will fundamentally change life in America with only democrat votes.

No shit when you govern from the left, ignoring the other ~50% of America, more than a few people are pissed off enough to actually start killing you.

Oh and poor lawmakers, receiving threats. Does that mean they are listening to their constituents now? I mean I guess they heard nothing during the debate, the town halls, but now that its over and there are threats, suddenly they figured out how to hit play on their voice mail machiens and email boxes. will wonders never cease.



I'm so glad that if I ever punch you, you'll admit it's your own fault.

He'll gladly do so as he punches you, I think.

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