Grey-elves

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Adriorn Darkcloak
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Grey-elves

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:56 pm

Why are grey-elves the best tanks? The best mages? The best rangers? One race cannot dominate so many classes. While I know not the difference between gnome and greyelf memtimes, I know the difference between grey-elf Ranger and Human Ranger hitting and grey-elf tanking vs any other race. What Gagrag said about the maxagi eq is true, but there's something else too...If you've spent the time collecting max_agi items while playing here, a grey-elf tank will be a better tank than a non-greyelf tank right? Pretty much no comparison right? Just wondering what people will reply to that.

My suggestion to balance things out a little, with grey-elf tanks and rangers:

Right now, grey-elves get a max_con bonus at 101. I think that's a really gay and easy way to compensate for their hp negative. Instead of 101, make them only get hps at the 112 notch instead. Something that is harder to get and not the retarded 101 maxcon bonus.
Last edited by Adriorn Darkcloak on Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grey-elves

Postby Zukal » Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:04 pm

And reduce the con notch needed for dwarves and barbarians, it takes 112 to hit first notch for races with much stronger base con, really rediculous.
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Re: Grey-elves

Postby Kral » Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:17 pm

Yeah a simple solution to help balance warriors, not really needing to dg elves, but make the other warrior types do what they are meant to: take hits. could lower max_con notch so they can get more hps and even things out a little.
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Re: Grey-elves

Postby Gagrag » Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:41 pm

I have to disagree on the method.

An Elf with 101 con is equivalent to a Human with 100 con.
A Human with it's 101 notch is equivalent to a Barb/Dwarf with 78 con.

The next notch for elf is 119... if you were to bump it, the next notch after that would be 132; and that's a freakin stretch just for con.

Maybe if you changed the hp giving notches to 108 and 119 and have a skip at 101. Plenty of gear in the game that would take up a couple slots or a main slot to get to 108.

On a side note: Grey-elf tank being end all tank? As far as agi... No. Again it comes to gear. I can get a Troll/Gnome to -31 with the right combination of gear that I've built up for the same effects. But, I've traded off tiamat equipment for some of the maxagi that I have.

Player skill has a lot to do with it also. Having potions stocked to save your hide is a big help. If I put my human warrior out there, there's a good possibility that I'd still tank better or just as well as a noob grey tank. My gnome tanks just as well and my troll does some things better than the grey.

Again, the problem that I see happening the most is that new maxagi keeps getting added into the game. 3 years ago, there were only a few pieces. DSC legs (with no hps), Magma brynned (with no hps), Jot invasion rings (with no hps), Blue musp dragon boots (with no hps), TTF sleeves (with no hps)... I think that gets the point across. The only piece that I can think of is quicksilver mask that actually had hps...oh and magma tank boots.

Now, SM wrists (have hps), SMi necks (have hps), Selari's (has hps), quickling armor (has hps), waitwrap (has hps)... I'm sure there's more that I'm not thinking of.

Think... an elf tank used to have to give up 2x ring slots just to get 124. That's 130hps at least with musp signets. Now you can toss on 2x SMi amulets, get 20 hps, move off the maxagi rings and toss on signets. You get all the same maxagi bonuses, plus retain 150 hps.

As far as tanks are concerned... it's not the races that are the problem. New equipment has been tailored to make elf tanks that much more badass. Thus the disparity.

That's just what I've noticed... I know nothing about grey rangers and very little about mages.

Hope this insight helps...



PS...
As far as balancing goes, is the dump in STR and CON really all that important for a tank/hitter/mage? Not really. There's MAX_*insert stat here* that takes care of it... and there's a lot of it.
Last edited by Gagrag on Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grey-elves

Postby Kindi » Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:47 pm

I think Con should do more than just hp. It should also effect melee resistance in some way. Punching an ogre shouldn't do as much damage as punching an elf. Now that we've got resist slash, resist unarmed, etc, maybe it can tie in with that.
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Re: Grey-elves

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:54 pm

Very good post Gag, and I agree. Too much max_agi eq has something to do with it. For tanking it's the most obvious. But also look at grey-elf mages. They get the awesome agility notches, plus awesome memtimes. Rangers? Awesome agility notch, awesome dex notch and extra attacks. Plus for some reason they seem to proc weapons more than the Human ranger. Etc, etc.

If you wanna tone down the maxcon notch on grey-elves from 119 to 108 or 112, that's fine, that's a good compromise. I just find it completely ridiculous that 101 gives them a con notch that puts them equal to humans. That's just wrong.

What Kindi said about resists is also a good point, when fighting melee. But when fighting casters and dragons, what you want on a tank are hitpoints, not resist piercing. Just saying. I might be an extra thing added to the Constitution stat, definitely, but the 101 maxcon notch has to go.

P.S. Don't get me started on the 101 max_str notch on Humans again Bren :P
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Re: Grey-elves

Postby Gagrag » Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:12 pm

Hahaha

Alright, on Alane I've got 122 con... That 122 con takes up 4 of 19 slots.

We know that the con notches work every other notch... so (101) 108 (119) 132 where (notch) are hp giving notches.
My suggestion would to be give hp notches at 101 (108) (119) 132 etc etc.

I might agree that their DEX needs to take a cut, since str notches don't really matter all that much and dam can be fixed by eq/arrows on the ranger side. I know that I quit working on my elf ranger and finished my human first because of the hp issue. But I'm sure eq will end up increasing that disparity also.

Mages, again... I don't pay much attention to the eq for mages and don't know much of what's available. Some other expert's gonna have to comment on that.
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Re: Grey-elves

Postby grundar » Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:31 pm

the way towards balance is simple, at least for tanks.

dodge:agility
parry:dexterity
shieldblock:strength
crit damage reduction/avoidance/over all hps:constitution

every race will then have their own niches, advantages and disadvantages. and humans will remain the baseline that you only pick when you're absolutely bored or have a human fetish

as for two handed weapon tanking, you'll parry using your strength bonus applied to the current dex stat.

halfling tanks will be masters of the parry, elves will be the masters of dodge and ogres will shieldblock and take less crit damage but wont be able to parry or dodge to save their lives. and so forth


there, i solved the age old balance issue, now if i could only figure out how to make my beer mug refill on its own...
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Re: Grey-elves

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:24 pm

before we go talking about downgrading lets look at some things. The game mechanics have changed to adapt to things like elf tanks, look at the urlgen fight in SMi. If i do say so myself my dwarf is dressed pretty decent for a tank, he cant tank urglen for 3 rounds straight up. Even an elf tank has some issues on this fight. The mechanics of the game are changing to meet the things like elf tanks. Older zones dont have the agumented mobs that the newer ones do. Maybe some of the older zones need a revamp for that. But if we go downgrading the elf tank the new zones will turn into nothing but slaughter fests. The mechanics of the game are adapting to elf tanks its only a matter of time till even they have an issue tanking some of the agumented mobs.

Thats just my opinion though
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Re: Grey-elves

Postby Zukal » Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:56 am

To Kindi:

Exactly... Con should have a resiliency factor making it so you take less damage the more con you have.

To Gundar:

Exatly. Strength, is a useless stat on a tank, we have 2 strength based defensive skills, parry and shieldblock, make the amount of strength actually have an impact on the usefulness of these skills. I like the dexterity thing, it would make it so Ogres aren't too strong either, since they should be relatively bad tanks.
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Re: Grey-elves

Postby Gagrag » Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:37 am

Most of why a max_agi decked elf doesn't get hit isn't because of the actual skill level...

Toss on a blur, turn off condensed and go attack something... it's not parries, or dodges, or shieldblocks... the mobs just straight up miss.

I still heavily stand behind the fact that when I FIRST came out with a high agi elf, yeah I tanked a lot solo, but holy crap I still needed heals cuz I only had something like 740hps. Now I'm up to 941 unbuffed. That's the same base unbuffed hps as a barb/dwarf with generic gear.

There's maxagi in almost every slot now.

Something is gonna happen:
a) downgrade the usefulness of maxagi
b) downgrade elves
c) nerf maxagi items
d) make harder zones with the sole purpose of defeating the elf tank

Maxagi is a damn amazing tool... khanjari is to rogue what maxagi is to a tank. I see everyone else saying the same stuff in other threads defending the khanjari and wanting to slight tanks. Take the only real thing that we can work REALLY freakin hard for and that give us any amount of true survivability.

Goto trune and enter in the 5 wisp fight alone... 5 consecutive boneshatters will own any elf tank. Goto Tiamat and watch elf tanks get owned by dragons w/ 26 svbr. We're not invincible, so please stop making it sound like we are.

The ones who do seem invincible have worked damn hard to get be that way... just like khanjari rogues.
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Re: Grey-elves

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:52 am

Gag, I don't want to hurt anyone in the process. But I do want to balance any imbalances in the game. I think the 101 max_con on grey-elves is a joke. I liked your suggestion, make the first notch higher so that one piece of eq doesn't immediately give tanks and rangers the extra hps.

Also, I liked the suggestions about giving other stats an actual usefulness for tanking. That way a barbarian tank can be better at "con-based skill" than elf, etc.
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Re: Grey-elves

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:31 am

Also Gag:

Image
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Re: Grey-elves

Postby Zukal » Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:53 am

I want it to be apparent that my argument really isn't to downgrade elf tanks. I agree with Gags, most of the good ones have worked hard to get there. We don't need to punish them, instead you need to have a balancer like we've suggested, make other tanks better in a different way, yeah hps are nice. And there are few people who can stand up to to Tiamat dragons like Zukal, but it's frustrating to throw Zukal against a large group of mobs, he just gets destroyed. I'm not saying he should be as good against a group as an elf, let them have their niche, it makes sense that they could dodge more attacks, but make our strength based skills more effective.
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Racial Stats

Postby Gagrag » Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:35 pm

Just about everyone knows my gear... So here's the data...
These are made using the best possible combinations with gear that I had available on my chars at the time...
I'm not using a Gith waistwrap for maxagi, Volance and stability boots are only tia items being used. Elves could have higher hps if I swapped off of stability boots, but I'm going for best possible overall functionality (how I would dress in a zone if I had to dress one of these out).

Character attributes for Vagag

Level: 50 Race: Barbarian Class: Warrior
Age: 91 yrs / 1 mths Size: Medium
STR: 100 AGI: 149 DEX: 87 CON: 117
POW: 45 INT: 56 WIS: 68 CHA: 53
Armor Class: -100 (100 to -100) Agility Bonus: -30
You say 'I have 1040 (968) hits, and 163 (165) movement points.'

Character attributes for Dlibble

Level: 50 Race: Gnome Class: Warrior
Age: 165 yrs / 0 mths Size: Small
STR: 100 AGI: 135 DEX: 90 CON: 121
POW: 70 INT: 71 WIS: 70 CHA: 70
Armor Class: -100 (100 to -100) Agility Bonus: -31
You say 'I have 866 (890) hits, and 107 (108) movement points.'
*note* next con notch is 124, just missing the eq, but would put at 940ish hps

Character attributes for Gagrag

Level: 50 Race: Troll Class: Warrior
Age: 25 yrs / 6 mths Size: Medium
STR: 100 AGI: 140 DEX: 84 CON: 121
POW: 70 INT: 71 WIS: 70 CHA: 70
Armor Class: -100 (100 to -100) Agility Bonus: -31
You say 'I have 1045 (1176) hits, and 143 (145) movement points.'
*note* Next con notch is 123, so add another 50 hps for 1 slot change

Character attributes for Balrek

Level: 50 Race: Human Class: Warrior
Age: 93 yrs / 0 mths Size: Medium
STR: 96 AGI: 149 DEX: 91 CON: 121
POW: 50 INT: 57 WIS: 57 CHA: 61
Armor Class: -100 (100 to -100) Agility Bonus: -30
You say 'I have 549 (816) hits, and 158 (160) movement points.'
*note* same thing about next notch at 124.

Character attributes for Asac

Level: 50 Race: Drow Elf Class: Warrior
Age: 189 yrs / 4 mths Size: Medium
STR: 100 AGI: 128 DEX: 83 CON: 109
POW: 70 INT: 70 WIS: 70 CHA: 71
Armor Class: -100 (100 to -100) Agility Bonus: -31
You say 'I have 580 (949) hits, and 126 (127) movement points.'

Character attributes for Alane

Level: 50 Race: Grey Elf Class: Warrior
Age: 289 yrs / 0 mths Size: Medium
STR: 100 AGI: 124 DEX: 84 CON: 122
POW: 70 INT: 70 WIS: 70 CHA: 70
Armor Class: -100 (100 to -100) Agility Bonus: -31
You say 'I have 751 (946) hits, and 133 (134) movement points.'

Summary:
Alane - Grey Elf - 946hps -31agi 2nd con notch, this is my normal tanking set.
Vagag - Barbarian - 968hps -30agi 1st con notch, will probably tank just as well as scrub elf tanks w/blur.
Dlibble - Gnome - 950hps -31agi (2nd con notch figured into hps), (swap SMwrist for blued wristguard, swap volance for 2nd SMi neck).
Asac - Drow - 949 hps -31agi 1st con notch
Balrek - Human - 860hps -30agi (2nd con notch figured into hps), same note as Vagag (swap SMwrist for blued wristguard, swap volance for 2nd SMi neck).
Gagrag - Troll - 1176 hps -31agi (2nd con notch NOT figured into hps) (swap SMwrist for blued wristguard, swap volance for 2nd SMi neck).

As we can see, with the same amounts of gear the only major disparities are with humans and trolls.
So why does everyone have a grey elf tank when the rest are all attainable?
Grey elves require less agi, which is hard enough to come by. The con isn't as easy to get (for the average player) up to decent hps, but it's doable.

Look at the fuckin troll tho!
Only one 2 slots in grey elf were !hps, boots and eyes... boots for stability and eyes for maxcon. Drop stability boots for magma tank boots, still up to 970ish. With the right amount of gear, you can get 1k hps, but not equivalent to what that troll's got.

So fuck your bazooka and shovel... there's the data.

If you're gonna downgrade something, downgrade trolls.
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Re: Grey-elves

Postby Pril » Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:23 pm

Did you account for the fire damage trolls take?
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Re: Grey-elves

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:37 pm

Gag, you mind posting the saves and prots of each of those characters with the equipment they had on as posted here?

As a good test, we would need to blur/scale each of those tanks and have them walk into the aggro troll room in CM. Just to see if there is any noticeable difference in tanking between them before they have to flee out. That to me would be a good, SIMPLE test, quick to check.
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Re: Grey-elves

Postby Gagrag » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:06 am

If you want me to do it... I will. Not all chars are up to the same skill level, so it'll honestly take time. Many of them I ran to 50 then quit once I got there; not being happy with the results. Say the word, and I'll start spending countless numbers of hours getting all chars the same skills.

I've done my fair share of testing with warrior classes and races in my search to find the best race class combo. As John said, as being proven by the last tiamat run, each race has their own niche. Barbs are great dragon fighters due to high hps, since you can't blur yourself past a dragon's special attacks. Elves get owned on Tiamat's 2nd grid. That's why we take them mostly for the first grid and don't expect them to do much on the 2nd grid; and the roles change.

My point being is that things ARE actually balanced as far as HP and AGI. For the most part, the low agi races will have at least -3svsp. Note that this is all limited by what gear "I have" on my chars at the moment. There's a major disparity in svsp in high end gear. All chars are Neutral (exc the Gnome, which I haven't done the quest for) and have access to at least dcult robes. The low agi races, barb/human/troll/gnome, are missing the svbr from 2x signet rings.

My main point is we're talking about balance. For a barb to get the amount of agi necessary to meet grey, they're gonna have to give up almost the same amount of hps. For the amount of con that a grelf necessary to meet barb, they're gonna have to give almost the same amount of max_agi. In my eyes, that's balance.

Pril, the point you bring up about troll's massive disparities on fire resistance is a no brainer and if you'd read through the data and seen what I've been talking about this whole time, you shouldn't have asked that question. It's a damn well known fact that troll's have a huge problem with fire.

What I'm talking about is all the people who say "elf tanks are too powerful". There's the myth, and there's the data. Elves are not out of balance of barbs... it's just more people don't play barb tank enough to put themselves, as much as I hate sounding like a prick, to my level.

Say the word, and I'll retire Alane and bring Vagag out of retirement. $5 get ya $10 I'll find a way to make that barb just as good.
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Re: Racial Stats

Postby grundar » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:08 am

Gagrag wrote:Summary:
Alane - Grey Elf - 946hps -31agi 2nd con notch, this is my normal tanking set.
Vagag - Barbarian - 968hps -30agi 1st con notch, will probably tank just as well as scrub elf tanks w/blur.
Dlibble - Gnome - 950hps -31agi (2nd con notch figured into hps), (swap SMwrist for blued wristguard, swap volance for 2nd SMi neck).
Asac - Drow - 949 hps -31agi 1st con notch
Balrek - Human - 860hps -30agi (2nd con notch figured into hps), same note as Vagag (swap SMwrist for blued wristguard, swap volance for 2nd SMi neck).
Gagrag - Troll - 1176 hps -31agi (2nd con notch NOT figured into hps) (swap SMwrist for blued wristguard, swap volance for 2nd SMi neck).


wtf? no dwarf/ogre/orc/yuan/duergar? you're slacking
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Re: Grey-elves

Postby Pril » Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:35 pm

Gagrag wrote:Pril, the point you bring up about troll's massive disparities on fire resistance is a no brainer and if you'd read through the data and seen what I've been talking about this whole time, you shouldn't have asked that question. It's a damn well known fact that troll's have a huge problem with fire.



What *I* was refering to is your comment of:

Gagrag wrote:Look at the fuckin troll tho!
Only one 2 slots in grey elf were !hps, boots and eyes... boots for stability and eyes for maxcon. Drop stability boots for magma tank boots, still up to 970ish. With the right amount of gear, you can get 1k hps, but not equivalent to what that troll's got.

So fuck your bazooka and shovel... there's the data.

If you're gonna downgrade something, downgrade trolls.



You said trolls were better and to downgrade them but you didn't factor in their inadequacies! I fully followed your line of reasoning on comparing agi vs hps. BUt you have to factor everything in.
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Re: Grey-elves

Postby Gagrag » Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:18 pm

Pril wrote:
Gagrag wrote:Pril, the point you bring up about troll's massive disparities on fire resistance is a no brainer and if you'd read through the data and seen what I've been talking about this whole time, you shouldn't have asked that question. It's a damn well known fact that troll's have a huge problem with fire.



What *I* was refering to is your comment of:

Gagrag wrote:Look at the fuckin troll tho!
Only one 2 slots in grey elf were !hps, boots and eyes... boots for stability and eyes for maxcon. Drop stability boots for magma tank boots, still up to 970ish. With the right amount of gear, you can get 1k hps, but not equivalent to what that troll's got.

So fuck your bazooka and shovel... there's the data.

If you're gonna downgrade something, downgrade trolls.



You said trolls were better and to downgrade them but you didn't factor in their inadequacies! I fully followed your line of reasoning on comparing agi vs hps. BUt you have to factor everything in.


nods, i completely understand. Trolls have it rough, and I'd rather not see them downgraded. I don't want to see *any* tank race downgraded. That's the point of my argument. The use of the data is to show balance. I do think that trolls are balanced. I think that they're all balanced, for the most part (excluding humans), and there's no need for this "downgrade elf tanks" argument.

Here's a thought. As far as mages/priests are concerned... let's look at the mechanics of the combat engine.

If I can get a grelf cleric to 124 agi (which I probably could fairly easily), it'd be able to hold its own if it got switched to, if in fact the chanter kept its blur up, almost as well as a tank could (since it's using the mechanics of the combat engine vs using skills; mobs just miss instead of being dodged/parried/blocked).

I know I'm gonna catch flak for this...

Here's a suggestion to resolve the problem as far as mages:
Make agi work the same way con does.

Example: I remember a while back, a non-warrior class could stack as much maxcon as they wanted to and it would not give them the benefits of it. Why not have the same thing for agi? Remove the "straight up whiff" factor for casters. After all, what good does massive innate INT do for me as a tank... nothing, but I have it. They have capped con for casters... why not do the same for agi?

Another thing would be to limit the amount of mageable maxagi?

When I came onto the scene with Alane, I didn't change the game. Just the way it was played by knowing what we know about the combat system.
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Re: Grey-elves

Postby Gagrag » Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:33 pm

Pril wrote:You said trolls were better and to downgrade them but you didn't factor in their inadequacies! I fully followed your line of reasoning on comparing agi vs hps. BUt you have to factor everything in.


I digressed but never made this point... Read what you wrote and re-read that post of mine. I NEVER said that trolls were better. I played one for a damn long time. I know they suck and I know it's not easy to play a troll tank anymore.

I was simply stating if you're going to arbitrarily downgrade a race due to hp vs. agi ratio, downgrade trolls. There are larger gaps between other races, where there are seemingly fewer between elf/barb/gnome etc.
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Re: Grey-elves

Postby Pril » Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:55 pm

Also as far as mage tanking you should see a dscaled blured chanter tanking CM duergars. I leveled my chanter in this fashion for a bit. spell up and then spam pris/blacklight burst. I took very little damage this way.
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Re: Grey-elves

Postby Gagrag » Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:58 pm

Pril wrote:Also as far as mage tanking you should see a dscaled blured chanter tanking CM duergars. I leveled my chanter in this fashion for a bit. spell up and then spam pris/blacklight burst. I took very little damage this way.


This is the point of the thread, dude.
What race? What amount of agi? What were the stats? Any Tiamat eq? How many hps did you have? How long did the kills take?

Do you think it was balanced as far as other races? If you do think it's balanced between races, can you furnish data proving it?

Saying it's possible and knowing why it's possible are 2 different things imo.
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Re: Grey-elves

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:02 am

personally i think gnomes are starting to take over as the domniate mage class, nice agi, great mem times and being !bash (with reduce) makes a huge difference. plus the hp is better than elf.
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Re: Grey-elves

Postby Pril » Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:58 pm

Gagrag wrote:
Pril wrote:Also as far as mage tanking you should see a dscaled blured chanter tanking CM duergars. I leveled my chanter in this fashion for a bit. spell up and then spam pris/blacklight burst. I took very little damage this way.


This is the point of the thread, dude.
What race? What amount of agi? What were the stats? Any Tiamat eq? How many hps did you have? How long did the kills take?

Do you think it was balanced as far as other races? If you do think it's balanced between races, can you furnish data proving it?

Saying it's possible and knowing why it's possible are 2 different things imo.


It's been a while so I don't have Data but I'll do my best to answer all your questions.

Grey Elf Chanter had 120something agi. He did have tiamat eq on him and I did use the sleeves to heal every once in a while. And circlet to mem back my prisms. Somewhere around 800ish hps probably a little under. As far as how long the kills took it was a little random seeing as prism is a little random. but wasn't horribly bad. I only have the one chanter so i can't compare it across races but i'm sure someone with more chanting experience might be able to. I wasn't denying stuff just tossing more info into the pot.

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