riots and socialism

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kiryan
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riots and socialism

Postby kiryan » Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:00 pm

Greek riots
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE6BD2FH20101215
add in student riots in England
add in the demonstrations in France over raising the retirement age

This is socialized, civilized Europe that we want to emulate? Where public unions hold the entire population hostage legally or illegally with no consequence? I want to say French truckers intentionally slowed down traffic in and out of Paris by driving around slowly for hours (also happened to a limited degree in Portland OR within the last couple years). I don't remember reading much outrage about the Greek mob killing a couple of random bank employees during the last set of riots?

What is the basis of these riots? That government took away promises... because it was out of money. Rioting because you don't get a free education? Really? That is right up there with striking over a 250k job. This is the problem with socialism, when the government runs out of money, the population revolts.

Is this really the future of America? last year I believe public unions had more members than private unions. In 2010, one specific, low key, public employee union spent I believe 70 million to elect Democrats. Explain to me why employees of the state government need unions to protect them... from the government?

I believe most if not all federal employees may not be unionized. Public sector unions need to be eliminated.
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Re: riots and socialism

Postby Corth » Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:01 am

I couldn't care less if the public sector is unionized. Just stop paying public sector employees outrageously high salaries and benefits. On Long Island the cops are paid like $150,000 per year on average. They get more than 1000 applicants for each open job. How about cutting pay to $75,000 per year and maybe getting 100 applicants for each job instead? Sheesh.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
Teflor Lyorian
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Re: riots and socialism

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:18 am

When the state controls everything, the only way to influence the state is by disrupting it.

When the people actually have the power, there's no need to riot.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
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Re: riots and socialism

Postby Corth » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:05 am

I like that Teflor. It stands to reason logically, and it's an elegant way of putting it.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Re: riots and socialism

Postby shalath » Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:52 pm

Edit: Changed my mind, decided it's not worth entering the debate. Hi Mike hope you and the wife and kids are well :)
[Profile edited by Board Admin. If you can't be civil, we'll fix it for you. -ed]
Sarvis
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Re: riots and socialism

Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:18 pm

Because there have never been riots in the US? Or are you saying that the people have no control over government in the US?
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Re: riots and socialism

Postby kiryan » Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:25 pm

Lick we're all doing fairly well. Laurel got a B in organic chemistry and an A- in physics so I'm pretty irritated at her. I don't work and slave so she can get a substandard grades.
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Re: riots and socialism

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:08 pm

Sarvis wrote:Because there have never been riots in the US? Or are you saying that the people have no control over government in the US?

There have been riots in the US directly because the people involved in the riots have had no power.

However, they are far more frequent, far more accepted, and appeal to a far broader audience in European nations, where, in the US, true riots aimed at disrupting societal function are rare and typically perpetrated by a small minority limited to local jurisdictions.

If you can't see the difference between a race riot in one city, as compared to a national crisis in Greece or France where the entire national infrastructure is being held hostage, then I can't help you.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
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Re: riots and socialism

Postby Corth » Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:08 pm

Oh jeez Sarvis. You don't want to go there. In the socialist European countries the people are demonstrating and striking constantly. What you see in the US doesn't even compare. The government allows dairy farmers to raise the price of milk - young mothers take to the street. The government refuses to allow taxi drivers to charge higher fares - the taxi drivers create traffic jams in protest. The government raises the retirement age and slashes pension benefits because it's broke - you get the picture. When people aren't free to make their own decisions about their own lives, all that's left is to protest the powers that be.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
kiryan
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Re: riots and socialism

Postby kiryan » Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:35 pm

And you want me to support unions... guys like these who hold an entire city hostage through malifesance and shoddy / slow work because they didnt' get called in to work double or triple time on Christmas, because the mayor has been slashing workers and costs, because they just aren't happy? I hope 2011 and 2012 are union busting years the likes of which will be told as horror stories for generations of union supporters.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/sani ... OJlekSSDJK

The snow-removal snitches said they were told to keep their plows off most streets and to wait for orders before attacking the accumulating piles of snow.

They said crews normally would have been more aggressive in com bating a fierce, fast-moving bliz zard like the one that barreled in on Sunday and blew out the next morning.

...

The workers said the work slowdown was the result of growing hostility between the mayor and the workers responsible for clearing the snow.

In the last two years, the agency's workforce has been slashed by 400 trash haulers and supervisors -- down from 6,300 -- because of the city's budget crisis. And, effective tomorrow, 100 department supervisors are to be demoted and their salaries slashed as an added cost-saving move.
...
But multiple Sanitation Department sources told The Post yesterday that angry plow drivers have only been clearing streets assigned to them even if that means they have to drive through snowed-in roads with their plows raised.

And they are keeping their plow blades unusually high, making it necessary for them to have to run extra passes, adding time and extra pay.

One mechanic said some drivers are purposely smashing plows and salt spreaders to further stall the cleanup effort.
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Re: riots and socialism

Postby Kindi » Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:46 am

you want to take away ppl's freedom of association? their liberty to form groups in an attempt to achieve common goals?
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Re: riots and socialism

Postby kiryan » Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:11 am

Unions took away the freedom to fire someone, i suppose its only fair that someone else takes away the freedom to associate.

/sarcasm
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Re: riots and socialism

Postby Corth » Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:47 am

They can associate all they like. So long as I can fire them when the quality of their work becomes unsatisfactory. :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Re: riots and socialism

Postby Disoputlip » Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:17 pm

I am glad you have changed your view on riots Kiryan.

When you wrote that silly post about making your own riots and joining a group etc. I was a little worried. I refuse to find the thread, but it was after Obama was elected.

I 99 % agree that riots are not acceptable. The one thing I like a lot is the sit down demonstrations, where people go into trafic and sit down.
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Re: riots and socialism

Postby Kindi » Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:34 pm

are employers really so stupid as to sign a legally binding agreement that says 'i can't fire you'?
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Re: riots and socialism

Postby kiryan » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:03 am

I haven't changed my view on how our government has governed for the past 2 years, specifically with healthcare reform. Rioting over freedom is 100x different than rioting because you think you deserve $.

--

"are employers really so stupid as to sign a legally binding agreement that says 'i can't fire you'?"

to oversimply, no they are not so stupid, they are compelled and coereced and bargain in good faith and eventually screwed over.

1. You need to understand that once voted and formed, a union has federal legal rights that are enforceable. They can literally force you into binding 3rd party arbitration if you are determined to have bargained in bad faith. Its not simply a matter of walking away and saying well we're not going to deal / sign with you. Once you accept that first contract, it is basically too expensive to ever get out because of all the standard provisions in every union contract designed to make it difficult and expensive.

2. now beyond hte legal rights, consider the "soft" power. The labor board, think of all the union supporters in high places in government that you have to deal with just to run a business.... think of general strikes boycotts and picketing by union faithful... It may be 18 nurses wanting to unioninze at your company, but next you have a union of 300,000 threatening you and then you start having trouble with licensing and atypical difficult safety inspections random complaints that spark investigations etc etc etc... Last month, a story ran about the unions basically teling the DNC where to hold their convention... the criteria was based on which cities have hotels with more union employees...
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Re: riots and socialism

Postby Kindi » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:14 pm

it's almost as if 300,000 ppl are more important than 1 person
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Re: riots and socialism

Postby kiryan » Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:04 pm

Almost... I think you meant to say

Its almost as if the owner of a business doesn't actually own it. The union does.

and you're right. that is the problem.

Where have I heard that before... oh yea I remember, Barack Obama. Return the nation's wealth to its "rightful owners"... IE the workers IE the unions. Not the owners and investors, but the people who actually do the work that generates the profits. Not the people who actualyl build teh factories or come up with the great idea or do the cancer research, but the progarmmer at facebook should be worth say 250 million because she's actually doing the work not Zuckberg who is apaprently worth around many billions.
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Re: riots and socialism

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:27 pm

kiryan wrote:but the people who actually do the work that generates the profits.


How terrifyingly horrible.

Not the people who actualyl build teh factories


Technically, those are also the people who do the work.

or come up with the great idea or do the cancer research, but the progarmmer at facebook should be worth say 250 million because she's actually doing the work not Zuckberg who is apaprently worth around many billions.


The guys who actually do the cancer research are actually paid pretty well.

The programmers should be paid better. Zuckerberg would be where, without them?
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Re: riots and socialism

Postby kiryan » Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:39 pm

Coming from someone who believes only in government to make our lives better I'm not surprised. You probably think government should conduct and fund all research and decide how best to use the nation's resources and which sectors to invest public and private money in for future prosperity.

btw thats pretty much communism... and history is full of success stories Russia, Cuba and Venezuela!
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Re: riots and socialism

Postby Kindi » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:00 pm

don't see why there can't be a middle ground, like every country currently existing
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Re: riots and socialism

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:19 pm

kiryan wrote:Coming from someone who believes only in government to make our lives better I'm not surprised. You probably think government should conduct and fund all research and decide how best to use the nation's resources and which sectors to invest public and private money in for future prosperity.

btw thats pretty much communism... and history is full of success stories Russia, Cuba and Venezuela!


I don't see where I mentioned government, but have fun dancing with your scarecrow.
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Teflor Lyorian
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Re: riots and socialism

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:10 pm

Sarvis wrote:I don't see where I mentioned government, but have fun dancing with your scarecrow.

In about 28 other threads..
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)

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