Oprah says RESPECT Obama

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Oprah says RESPECT Obama

Postby kiryan » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:40 pm

http://www.politico.com/politico44/perm ... bcd93.html

This isn't really that interesting. but the 500 comments are OVERWHELMINGLY negative and many wonder why Oprah didn't call for any respect for GWB. Out of the 2, GWB certainly acted in a more respectful way than Obama has.
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Re: Oprah says RESPECT Obama

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:41 pm

kiryan wrote:http://www.politico.com/politico44/perm/0211/just_a_little_bit_868941d7-3826-4a53-9390-43550fabcd93.html

This isn't really that interesting. but the 500 comments are OVERWHELMINGLY negative and many wonder why Oprah didn't call for any respect for GWB. Out of the 2, GWB certainly acted in a more respectful way than Obama has.

Oprah don't care about white people?
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Re: Oprah says RESPECT Obama

Postby kiryan » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:27 pm

LOL, Rush is now talking about this. Let the independent thinking record show I brought uit up a full hour before he did.
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Re: Oprah says RESPECT Obama

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:28 pm

Really? Didn't bush start a war based on a lie? Didnt that war cost the lives of thousands? And you think bush acted more respectably than Obama? What's the worse Obamas done? Pushed through health care like he promised? Fact of the matter is Obama was put into office with the US in the worst financial situation since the 1920s
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Re: Oprah says RESPECT Obama

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:02 am

So, as Democracy sweeps dictators out of the middle east, do we still criticize President Bush for his "pointless" war in a region of the world that's "not ready for democracy?"
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Re: Oprah says RESPECT Obama

Postby Corth » Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:33 pm

Many people saw that as the main goal of the Iraq war. Show one backwards Middle Eastern country what it's like to live in a Democracy and the rest will soon demand it. A kind of reverse domino effect.

It might be one of those 'get what you asked for' type of moments. Keep in mind when the Shah fell in Iran it wasn't initially going to be a Muslim state. The Ayatollah was disclaiming any political ambitions and in fact a secular government was elected. And then rather quickly thing changed and behold you have the modern Islamic Republic. If the dictators of the Middle East fall in favor of Islamist governments then we are well and truly screwed.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Re: Oprah says RESPECT Obama

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:15 pm

For better or worse, it will be interesting to watch.
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Re: Oprah says RESPECT Obama

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:32 pm

I wonder how many other people who live in free societies believe that liberty and democracy aren't worth "the lives of thousands," when Americans have sacrificed millions of their own sons and daughters for that very thing around the world.
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Re: Oprah says RESPECT Obama

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:09 pm

my biggest thing about trying to impose democracy upon iraq is what right do we have to it. What right do we have as a society to impose our beliefs be they political, ethical or moral on other countries and other peoples? Is America so all knowing that they know what is best for the rest of the nations, for the rest of the world? Last i looked they were having enough problems running thier own shit.

as well the fact of the matter is, is that america had to fight for thier freedom, so its appreciated. Go into another country and give them thier freedom from a dictator....thats a whole other ball game.

And people claiming now that the point of the iraq war was to establish democracy in the middle east.....thats a crock. Killing tens of thousands so you could impose your beliefs on other nations and peoples that dont neccisarrily want that, thats not much better than hittler in my mind. If the people in iraq were demonstrating like egypt did and demanded democracy and saddam went in and started killing people, sure step in and do it. but it wasnt like that in iraq.

The idea that bush is trying to be painted as some visionary that had a master plan to implant democracy into the middle east blows my mind. And Iraq isnt even standing on its own feet yet as a democracy, give it 10 years see if its still working like that without the interference of the US.
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Re: Oprah says RESPECT Obama

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:14 am

amena wolfsnarl wrote:my biggest thing about trying to impose democracy upon iraq is what right do we have to it. What right do we have as a society to impose our beliefs be they political, ethical or moral on other countries and other peoples? Is America so all knowing that they know what is best for the rest of the nations, for the rest of the world? Last i looked they were having enough problems running thier own shit.

So, you stand idly by while real people are being purposefully injured in a society without human rights? Where fathers are permitted to murder their daughters for loving the wrong man? Where people are executed by their governments for believing that they should be able to speak their conscience freely? Where a woman can be stoned to death because they were raped?

What gives you the right to be so callous about your neighbors living in slavery? What gives Americans, the only and dominant global power the right to do nothing?

It's not to say that we should run roughshod over every regime with a military juggernaut, but Iraq could easily have avoided this problem by allowing UN weapons inspectors to do what Iraq agreed that they could do.
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Re: Oprah says RESPECT Obama

Postby Kifle » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:09 am

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
amena wolfsnarl wrote:my biggest thing about trying to impose democracy upon iraq is what right do we have to it. What right do we have as a society to impose our beliefs be they political, ethical or moral on other countries and other peoples? Is America so all knowing that they know what is best for the rest of the nations, for the rest of the world? Last i looked they were having enough problems running thier own shit.

So, you stand idly by while real people are being purposefully injured in a society without human rights? Where fathers are permitted to murder their daughters for loving the wrong man? Where people are executed by their governments for believing that they should be able to speak their conscience freely? Where a woman can be stoned to death because they were raped?

What gives you the right to be so callous about your neighbors living in slavery? What gives Americans, the only and dominant global power the right to do nothing?

It's not to say that we should run roughshod over every regime with a military juggernaut, but Iraq could easily have avoided this problem by allowing UN weapons inspectors to do what Iraq agreed that they could do.


You do understand that the first paragraph is an attempt to force a personal opinion or value judgments on another -- which are completely personal -- and the second paragraph is entirely Machiavellian.

Lastly, I find it odd that the justification for the Iraq war always seems to be dictated by the argument. Either it was to spread democracy or it was because they didn't allow us to inspect their nuclear weapons program (or lack thereof) -- or it was about Bin Laden (which I don't think anyone has attempted to argue in a long time for good reason). When it is the former, it is to sidestep debate and show the result; when it is the latter, it is generally used as a fail-safe to detract from the fact that democratic reasoning was a complete afterthought while the country was well into the war.
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Re: Oprah says RESPECT Obama

Postby kiryan » Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:53 pm

I agree with you in principle amena. I've brought it up before, what if a society freely chooses an ultra conservative islamic theocracy / lifestyle... or an even more odious one where there are no laws and they like it that way... I don't necessarily think we have any right to go in there and rebuild their society in our image because Democracy is "good".

On the other hand, if people aren't free to leave that society and go somewhere else or free to change their political systems / laws... and there is obvious rampant suffering... then I start to agree that yes someone can step in and free them from this state of slavery and misery... especially if they have no "rights". Unfortunately, many countries see their citizens as natural resources (China for one) and immigrating to another country may not be granted solely on your discretion.

Then you have the issue of "failed" states. If Mexico were to decend into a real "war" over drugs (and loses) or with another South American country and they end up fighting literally a hundred feet from our border... I think its reasonable to get involved due to our own interests... whether we have the right or not. If Colombia has rebuilt their society on shipping cocaine to the USA, I think we have enough cause to intervene (assuming diplomacy fails).

but no, in general I don't think we have the right to invade countries and install democracy just because democracy is better than dictatorships. China for example does things very differently, but with the US's help they've lifted their entire population out of poverty. They may have cracked down on Tibet, and filtered the Internet and limited their population to 1 child... but they have 1.4 billion people who have significant amounts of freedom that aren't suffering extensively and pervasively.
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Re: Oprah says RESPECT Obama

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:38 pm

Man it's a pita posting from my phone.

Teflor, by your same reasoning you justify the terrorists qnd al-queda war on America. They do not agree with the American morals values and see our way of life as an insult to everything they stand for. So they want isreal and the us destroyed, with the Muslim values put in the place of American. They are not your neighbors, they are a separate people who have thief own views, values, and morals. Those are not the same as the ones here in America.

Alot of the middle east does not like the way American values and life is, are they justified in attackng the US because they want shiriah law imposed on America? Or is it only okay when the US does it.
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Re: Oprah says RESPECT Obama

Postby kiryan » Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:07 pm

I think the primary issue with the middle east is that they actively work against our interests and actively carry out attacks against our people and interests...

whether justified (because we interfere) or not we are going to respond. that is not to say we should't re-evaluate what we are interfering in and whether we should... its just to say we're going to respond because A) our original position on interference is affirmed or B) we're simply responding to their action.
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Re: Oprah says RESPECT Obama

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:01 pm

Kifle wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
amena wolfsnarl wrote:my biggest thing about trying to impose democracy upon iraq is what right do we have to it. What right do we have as a society to impose our beliefs be they political, ethical or moral on other countries and other peoples? Is America so all knowing that they know what is best for the rest of the nations, for the rest of the world? Last i looked they were having enough problems running thier own shit.

So, you stand idly by while real people are being purposefully injured in a society without human rights? Where fathers are permitted to murder their daughters for loving the wrong man? Where people are executed by their governments for believing that they should be able to speak their conscience freely? Where a woman can be stoned to death because they were raped?

What gives you the right to be so callous about your neighbors living in slavery? What gives Americans, the only and dominant global power the right to do nothing?

It's not to say that we should run roughshod over every regime with a military juggernaut, but Iraq could easily have avoided this problem by allowing UN weapons inspectors to do what Iraq agreed that they could do.


You do understand that the first paragraph is an attempt to force a personal opinion or value judgments on another -- which are completely personal -- and the second paragraph is entirely Machiavellian.

Lastly, I find it odd that the justification for the Iraq war always seems to be dictated by the argument. Either it was to spread democracy or it was because they didn't allow us to inspect their nuclear weapons program (or lack thereof) -- or it was about Bin Laden (which I don't think anyone has attempted to argue in a long time for good reason). When it is the former, it is to sidestep debate and show the result; when it is the latter, it is generally used as a fail-safe to detract from the fact that democratic reasoning was a complete afterthought while the country was well into the war.

You have a single incorrect thought that I feel must be addressed. The United States had planned regime change in Iraq with the very first invasion plans. Don't get suckered into the idea that constructing a friendly, democratic government wasn't part of the picture until later. It's blatantly false and utterly without sense - we invaded to strike down an entire government. It's not like there was NO IDEA about what to replace it with.

And yes, I understand the content and intention of every word that you wrote, but you should understand that my response addresses these ideas directly.

For a people that believe in rights and liberty must do what is necessary to defend it, and by doing so, must be effective and liberate the people they consider to be their equals in deserving of rights and liberty.

Another thing you must understand is that the people of Iraq are alive and well - protected and cared for to a degree that their society, their culture, and their population are NOT dying but growing. People were being killed by the tens of thousands by a murderous tyrant that used chemical weapons on his own people long before the United States and the multinational force invaded.

And for the first time, the people of Iraq are being given a chance to determine how they want to live. For the first time in a long time, the people have the power to decide what kind of country they want to have. That's democracy and it is strong in Iraq today, right now.

Democracy doesn't specifically mean rich industrialized nations where you can get a drink and get a fair trial. Whether the will of the people leads them to ruin is another question. That can happen to any democracy. Just because the people wield the power of determination doesn't mean a country will be successful. Are the people of Egypt just trading a dictator for a military junta? Are the Bahrainians going to get any better of a government? The answers are not clear, but the democracy, the people power, is apparent - as it is in Iraq today.
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Re: Oprah says RESPECT Obama

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:50 am

pretty speach.


"For a people that believe in rights and liberty must do what is necessary to defend it, and by doing so, must be effective and liberate the people they consider to be their equals in deserving of rights and liberty."

I am a muslim.

I believe in shiriah law. I believe it is my right, nay my Duty to Allah to stone a woman to death if she should commit the sin of adultry.

those who follow Allah have a duty to enlighten and free the infidels of the sinful life that they currently live. If they cannot be enlightened than they must perish. For i know what is best for the infidels and i will do everything i can to enlighten them

The people who follow shiriah law do well, they even prosper. They live with a strong sense of family and everyone knows thier role within the family.


okay im not a muslim but you get the picture. the people who say stuff like this are classified as muslim extremist right? Well Teflor the only difference between your statements and a muslim extremist is what side your on.

Another thing i have to bring up is we as a society we were allowed to develope naturally into a democracy. And alot of the things that we are appalled by the muslim culture and other cultures for (i.e. stoning woman to death for adultry, child labor) were quite common place not even a century ago. Hell up until a couple decades ago we viewed woman as an inferior person and we had every right to 'slap a bitch' if she got uppity (i still think we should have put a k-bosh on the whole womans rights thing though) .

We were not forced into democracy, we were not told that treating woman like that was wrong. We developed this as our society progressed, currently the issue of gay rights is changing in our society, there is no telling what view we will change in 10 years. But fact of the matter is we develop this naturally as our society is ready for it. A society that is forced to dramatically change its views will naturally resist, If the muslim culture is not ready to allow woman to wear less than a burkah, and suddenly you try to tell them its okay, sure some will embrace it, but the majority of the culture will lash out and deny that.

We need to allow the muslim culture to develope thier own identity at thier own pace and in thier own direction. Sides whos to say that they are wrong. God knows our society is fucked up.
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Re: Oprah says RESPECT Obama

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:54 am

pretty load of crap.

"Well Teflor the only difference between your statements and a muslim extremist is what side your on."

How can you possibly take yourself seriously when you equate liberty to stoning a woman to death for committing adultery?

Your position is not only untenable, it's indefensible. Liberty is not an extreme, but a universally recognized human right accepted by the United Nations, along with a majority of the world and its peoples. It takes a pretty sick mind to elevate the views of muslim extremism to being an equal side against the rights of man.
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Re: Oprah says RESPECT Obama

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:23 am

Really? A sick mind to stop and take a look from the perspective of someone from the other side of the argument? We condemn shiriah law, but to those who follow it, they view it us as a backwards society. To them it is wrong to allow our woman to say, act and dress the way they do. There are alot of other views that im sure they have to seem wrong to them, but i am not that familiar with them as i am the woman part.

I think i did a pretty good job of saying that forcing democracy and other views on a different society is much like a muslim trying to force shiriah law on the american society. And in the minds of a lot of people Democracy and the american way of life go hand in hand. As i mentioned we developed into these things naturally, thier society is still in what we would call 'developement' (again there are times i wonder which has it backwards).

And yes the UN does say that that liberty is a human right, that child labor is wrong, that treating woman like that is wrong, that alot of other things are wrong. Do they try to force offending countries to adopt these things as law? Is China not part of the UN? Is India and pakistan (some of the biggest users of child labor) not part of the UN? They encourage these countries to develope and adopt these policies on thier own, sure they may use trade sanctions and in some extreme cases prevent them from having representation in the UN, but they allow them to adopt these at thier own pace rather than try to force it on them.

I understand that it is with the best of intentions that we attempt to enlighten people, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. All I am trying to say is we have no place to force our morals, values and beliefs on another culture that has not developed to those same morals, values and beliefs we have, just like a muslim extremist has no right to force his morals etc. upon us.
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Re: Oprah says RESPECT Obama

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:25 am

You are arguing with yourself. You've done nothing of what you said you've done and I've done nothing that you've said that I've done.

You tried to equate the "side" of 'muslim' extremism with liberation to democracy - without even being able to recognize the true difference.

Democracy is not a moral, a value, or a belief, but restoration of power to the people. It is ONLY with Democracy that THE PEOPLE can decide their values, morals, and beliefs for themselves.
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Re: Oprah says RESPECT Obama

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:52 am

It is the American belief that democracy is the best form of government. So yes our belief was forced upon the iraq people. 82 of the 167 countries of the word are democratic and of those only 28 of them are noted to be full democracies (these numbers are from 2007 so may be a little different now)
http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/demo ... 007_v3.pdf Just incase you want to look at the numbers your self

The muslim people are know for terrorism and the willingness to attack opponents much stronger than them (i.e. the united states), in my mind that translates to the fact that they would be willing to stand up and revolt against a government they felt was incapable of leading them, but my mind is a sick and perverted place. The iraqi government was never the target of a terrorist attack, there was never a video from bin-laden demanding to bring democracy to iraq. However you want to look at it WE FORCED OUR BELIEF ON THEM. I am not attacking democracy, I am not attacking even you Teflor, what i am attacking is the belief that we know what is best for the rest of the world. That we should force our beliefs, be they forms of governments, values or anything else upon other societies. We can barely govern ourselves on a day to day basis, spiraling debt, massive unemployment, huge problems with education, health care and everything else under the sun, i think we have enough to worry about here.

On top of that the democracy in Iraq is being held up by american troops, what will happen when those american troops leave? What will happen when America isnt around to watch over thier first truly independent vote? I dont think the iraqi people are ready for democracy, i think a military or religious regime will step in and take power when the US troops leave the country. But we probably wont ever find out as the troops will be there for a long time coming.

And by comparing you to a muslim extremist i was merely trying to point out that you wanted to force your beliefs and laws on them just like they want to try to force thier beliefs and laws on the American people. Telling a person who follows shiriah law that they are backwards and how they treat woman is horrible is only going to get you cursed at and possibly stabbed. They need to come to these conclusions for themselves.
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Re: Oprah says RESPECT Obama

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:22 pm

You don't force people to have their own power. You can't force people to have their own choice where they had none before. That's ridiculous and stupid. It's the LACK of FORCE that ALLOWS democracy that take hold.

Returning power to the people is how they come to their own conclusions. Not your bankrupt idea of watching while tyrants fill the streets with the people's blood and PREVENT them from doing the things you proclaim to be upholding.

Your position is no position - you have no leg on which to stand upon while you allow those who live in slavery to continue to be slaves because you THINK that they need to become free by themselves. Do yourself a favor and LEARN some history: discover the role of the French Republic in the American Revolution - read a little about Abraham Lincoln and the Emancipation proclamation. LOOK at where liberty and democracy has been achieved in the world and UNDERSTAND that people can ALWAYS use a helping hand.
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