Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

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Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby kiryan » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:41 pm

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/04/11/jc ... -identity/

A J.Crew ad that shows a top designer painting her young son’s toenails neon pink has some parents and doctors seeing red.
The image appeared in a feature called "Saturday With Jenna," which was emailed to customers last week and highlights a few of J.Crew president and creative director Jenna Lyons’ favorite products -- including the hot pink Essie nail polish seen on her son, Beckett.

The caption below the picture reads, “Lucky for me I ended up with a boy whose favorite color is pink. Toenail painting is way more fun in neon.”

== ok up to this point I don't really care.

“This is a dramatic example of the way that our culture is being encouraged to abandon all trappings of gender identity,” psychiatrist Dr. Keith Ablow wrote in a FoxNews.com Health column about the ad.

Media Research Center’s Erin Brown agreed, calling the ad “blatant propaganda celebrating transgendered children.”

“Not only is Beckett likely to change his favorite color as early as tomorrow, Jenna's indulgence (or encouragement) could make life hard for the boy in the future,” Brown wrote in an opinion piece Friday. "J.CREW, known for its tasteful and modest clothing, apparently does not mind exploiting Beckett behind the facade of liberal, transgendered identity politics.”

== still don't care this shit happens. I don't agree with it, but whatever.

Now this isn't the original article I read, the original one launched into a defense of gender roles and that sort of stuff... criticism of raising boys as girls and girls as boys... then it attacked a comment made by ? that said maybe the kid wanted to paint his toenails and the mom was just going along with it. Then it asked the question... would the mom be ok if their son or daughter put on a cowboy hat and start running around the room pointing a finger gun.

Good question. Would all these parents who push these liberal gender identities on to their kids be ok if suddenly their kid started acting like a boy... wanting to play with guns, wanting to go hunting? I doubt it. Violence, guns all that stuff is bad... which gets us to the real problem with all of this. Its not that you paint your kids toenails... its that you're feminizing men because you reject the natural gender roles / instincts of men. As much as women want to claim they're being oppressed we have been increasingly taught men to deny their basic natures deny there is any difference between a man and woman... mentally, physically and even sexual relationshipy.

Really, we are past time to teach that men and women are statistically different... that is to say fundamentally different. We shouldn't teach one way or the other way is better, but we shouldn't be teaching that its not ok to be a man in the typical sense and teach that it is ok and better for a boy/man to act in a traditional womanly role (thinking emotionally in particular).
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby kiryan » Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:15 am

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/04/1 ... latestnews

Heres the article I read first.

Maybe we’ll all have shiny, colored lips, though, and pierced ears and perfect eyebrows and mommies who get applause from their J. Crew friends at the park for parading their sons through the streets in costume.

Jenna Lyons and J. Crew seem to know exactly what they’re up to. That’s why the photograph of Jenna’s son so prominently displays his hot pink, neon toe nails. These folks are hostile to the gender distinctions that actually are part of the magnificent synergy that creates and sustains the human race. They respect their own creative notions a whole lot more than any creative Force in the universe.

I wonder what Jenna would think if her son wanted to celebrate his masculinity with a little playacting as a cowboy, with a gun? Would that bring the same smile of joy and pure love that we see on her face in the J. Crew advertisement? Or would that be where she might draw the line?
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Ragorn » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:48 pm

Anyone who forces their child into a gender identify is a bad parent. That goes for the idiot in the article, and it also goes for all the fail parents who paint their little girls' fingernails when they're a year old, before they understand what they're doing.
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Kifle » Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:03 pm

Ragorn wrote:Anyone who forces their child into a gender identify is a bad parent. That goes for the idiot in the article, and it also goes for all the fail parents who paint their little girls' fingernails when they're a year old, before they understand what they're doing.


I agree, but you have to admit, it's hard not to want your little girl to look like a little girl before they know what they want. My 9yr old daughter currently plays COD, hockey, and skateboards, and I love it; however, when she was a baby, I put her in dresses, the wife painted her nails, etc. I don't think I caused any harm there. The difference between what I did/do, and how it is different from whom I think you're speaking about, is that I've always promoted choice and never forced anything identifying on my children -- except music; I hurts my soul when they listen to Soulja boy instead of Tool or Stevie Ray Vaughn. Even still, I allow them to listen to what they will, but I will still make my offhanded, sarcastic comments.
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:05 pm

I think most parents automatically try to force children into gender rolls, buying girls pink dresses and getting thier ears pierced, playing rough with boys, telling them to suck it up when they get little hurts. I think kifle is right in the fact that the only thing a good parent can do is support your children in the decsions they make to try to become who they want to become.

However forcing a reverse gender role upon a boy is wrong, it will cost him a life time of torment from the children at school, and in his personal life. I find that a lot of feminists try to force this upon thier little boys, i know one feminist who does her 5 yo sons nails every week. Right now it may not be an issue, but what about in a year? in 2? Shes convinced that it is acceptable for the little boy to have his nails done and the rest of the world just has to accept it. Guess what, you may accept it, but the boys 8 year old friends from school wont, they will label your son a freak and he will be the target of bullying and tormenting for a long time. Some parents might demand that the world accept who they make thier children into, but that doesnt mean that the world will actually accept it.
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Kifle » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:45 pm

amena wolfsnarl wrote:Guess what, you may accept it, but the boys 8 year old friends from school wont, they will label your son a freak and he will be the target of bullying and tormenting for a long time. Some parents might demand that the world accept who they make thier children into, but that doesnt mean that the world will actually accept it.


And here lies the crux of the situation -- at least in this case. There is nothing inherently girly or manly in the act of painting nails. By itself, it is a gender neutral activity. However, in the context of society, this becomes much different. Painting one's nails or having somebody else do it for you, outside of emos and goths, is a predominantly female activity. Because of this, performing this action on a young boy will be devastating with respect to his social life -- which will extend to his identity and personality development. Pragmatically, I will agree that what this lady, and others who force opposite gender activities on their children (or even activities in general with respect to circumstances Ragorn briefly outlined), is wrong. Ideally, though, there is nothing wrong with it. Unfortunately, ideals are just that -- ideals. Ideally, there would be no need for guns or medicine, but this is not the case. While social norms do change, and I am all for neutralizing activities, the environment for such a dangerous change must be perfect -- and this is not that environment. As an example, wearing pink or purple for a man used to be girly, but not it is accepted. But, the trend for this, which originated in the gay community leaked out into the heterosexual female community in that they preferred the way gay men dressed. This became a trend which helped the heterosexual male procreate. Thus, the environment created by an outside source (gay males through heterosexual females) created a natural change on a second or third party (heterosexual males) was perfect and unforced. This, however, is a forced gender neutralization, and it will not be accepted by the community at large -- mainly due to the unrealized pragmatics (such as procreation or opposite sex attraction).
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby kiryan » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:54 pm

amena wolfsnarl wrote:I think most parents automatically try to force children into gender rolls, buying girls pink dresses and getting thier ears pierced, playing rough with boys, telling them to suck it up when they get little hurts. I think kifle is right in the fact that the only thing a good parent can do is support your children in the decsions they make to try to become who they want to become.

However forcing a reverse gender role upon a boy is wrong, it will cost him a life time of torment from the children at school, and in his personal life. I find that a lot of feminists try to force this upon thier little boys, i know one feminist who does her 5 yo sons nails every week. Right now it may not be an issue, but what about in a year? in 2? Shes convinced that it is acceptable for the little boy to have his nails done and the rest of the world just has to accept it. Guess what, you may accept it, but the boys 8 year old friends from school wont, they will label your son a freak and he will be the target of bullying and tormenting for a long time. Some parents might demand that the world accept who they make thier children into, but that doesnt mean that the world will actually accept it.


Couldn't you make the same argument against raising a kid to be gay? Is it wrong to raise a kid gay... or to "indulge" their choices?
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Kifle » Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:47 pm

kiryan wrote:
amena wolfsnarl wrote:I think most parents automatically try to force children into gender rolls, buying girls pink dresses and getting thier ears pierced, playing rough with boys, telling them to suck it up when they get little hurts. I think kifle is right in the fact that the only thing a good parent can do is support your children in the decsions they make to try to become who they want to become.

However forcing a reverse gender role upon a boy is wrong, it will cost him a life time of torment from the children at school, and in his personal life. I find that a lot of feminists try to force this upon thier little boys, i know one feminist who does her 5 yo sons nails every week. Right now it may not be an issue, but what about in a year? in 2? Shes convinced that it is acceptable for the little boy to have his nails done and the rest of the world just has to accept it. Guess what, you may accept it, but the boys 8 year old friends from school wont, they will label your son a freak and he will be the target of bullying and tormenting for a long time. Some parents might demand that the world accept who they make thier children into, but that doesnt mean that the world will actually accept it.


Couldn't you make the same argument against raising a kid to be gay? Is it wrong to raise a kid gay... or to "indulge" their choices?


I don't really get this, so I'm going to ask you to qualify this: are you assuming that gay people are raised to be gay, or are you asking about the very small percentage of people who are nudged into the lifestyle as a choice?
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Ashiwi » Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:41 am

Kiryan wrote:Couldn't you make the same argument against raising a kid to be gay? Is it wrong to raise a kid gay... or to "indulge" their choices?


Kifle wrote:I don't really get this, so I'm going to ask you to qualify this: are you assuming that gay people are raised to be gay, or are you asking about the very small percentage of people who are nudged into the lifestyle as a choice?


I'd be interested in seeing this clarification, as well.

One of the people I work with at the shelter is a bona fide hermaphrodite. You'd swear she's a man, but mentally she's a woman. God created hermaphrodites. God doesn't make mistakes. I figure God knows best, so if He wants to create one extreme to another and every shade between, I don't argue.

There are people who seem to encourage femininity in their little boys. My personal preference is to encourage traditional roles unless children express an individuality which dictates a non-traditional gender identity. At that point, acceptance always starts best at home. If parents accept their children's gender identities, then others are also more likely to do so.

While I see nothing "wrong" with painting a little boy's toenails pink, if it was originally his request, I certainly hope she's supportive of his masculinity as well.
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Ragorn » Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:38 pm

"Raising your kid to be gay" is like trying to "raise your kid to be tall." Good luck with that.
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:24 pm

Ragorn wrote:"Raising your kid to be gay" is like trying to "raise your kid to be tall." Good luck with that.

Have any proof of that?
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Ragorn » Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:37 pm

Yes, I do.
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby kiryan » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:52 am

The power of authority is amazing. I think nazi's committed unspeakable atrocities against millions of people based on some orders... not even from a figure as trusted as a parent... but you don't think you could make anyone gay? at least gay in a practicing buttsecks fashion.

You may not be able to control your kids and shape their views and destiny, but I certainly can and have. I wouldn't swear that I could turn every one my kids gay, but I probably could turn at least one or two.
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Kifle » Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:09 am

kiryan wrote:The power of authority is amazing. I think nazi's committed unspeakable atrocities against millions of people based on some orders... not even from a figure as trusted as a parent... but you don't think you could make anyone gay? at least gay in a practicing buttsecks fashion.

You may not be able to control your kids and shape their views and destiny, but I certainly can and have. I wouldn't swear that I could turn every one my kids gay, but I probably could turn at least one or two.


Being a parent of teenagers, though, you'll be quick to notice that if the child just isn't a certain way, there's not much you can do to control the outcome. As a parent past the early developmental ages, the time where they believe you are superman instead of just another guy guessing half the time, parental influence lowers as peer influence raises to very disproportionate levels. You try to make a teenage boy gay, he's going to screw a girl just to spite you. Sure, you can force a 7yr old to do virtually anything, but a 17yr old is much harder to control. In the end, that teenage boy you've been pushing into butsecks his whole life realizes he hates the idea of it and secretly dates girls behind your back. When the day he moves out comes, he minimizes your influence over his self-esteem, guilt, and identity by cutting communication. It's not hard to predict what will happen if a parent exerts too much control over a child.

Basically, forcing homosexuality as an identity and a lifestyle on anyone is much like forcing them to feel pleasure instead of pain. Can it happen, I'm not too sure, but the probability is so small I will just say no anyway. Wait until your children get older. The things they will do behind your back will make you nauseous if you're too controlling and make them fearful to tell you anything.
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby kiryan » Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:38 am

the problem with your suggestion

1) I am not most people.
2) once their 17 its obviously too late, but that's not what im talking about. i'm talking about from birth raising a kid to be gay...
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Ashiwi » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:22 pm

Sorry dude. You're just going to have to prove this one.

There are hundreds of thousands of kids out there who live in mentally and sexually abusive homes. Untold number of men are out on the streets today who were sodomized repeatedly at young ages by fathers, uncles, grandfathers, neighbors, teachers, priests... And most of them aren't gay.

It is possible to brainwash anybody into being anything, if you start at a young enough age and put enough work into it. If you really want to prove your theory though, you'd better start with one of your own kids. Just let me know when you start.

Oh, by the way... what's the number to your local abuse hotline?
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Kifle » Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:27 pm

kiryan wrote:the problem with your suggestion

1) I am not most people.
2) once their 17 its obviously too late, but that's not what im talking about. i'm talking about from birth raising a kid to be gay...


1) No, but your kids are most kids. Statistically, even one of your children being that brainwashed is improbable at best.
2) the 17 number is when those kids reach that age assuming you've tried your best up until that age.

It is easy to get a child to do things, you're ignorant of teenage child rearing (no offense intended) outside of your own skewed viewpoint when you were a teenager or a very blind viewpoint of watching other people raise them. My parents, as well as many in this country, raised their children to be Christian... now we are atheists. How do you get such a mass exodus of a belief system (which is much easier to brainwash into a child than a lifestyle or sexual preference by an almost infinite distance of separation) if brainwashing children is so easy?! Why do so many parents find it difficult to stop having their kids like devil rock music? Why is there theft? Why are kids mean to each other? Why do children do anything wrong at all? Because brainwashing is easy. Because it is so difficult to wash out genetics. You aren't god, man. You just can't do it.
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:15 pm

Actually, evidence exists that indicates that sexual orientation has environmental influences. For instance, one study I came across found that homosexual men were more likely to have an older brother.
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby kiryan » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:11 pm

Surely you've heard of the cycle of violence Ashiwi? How many of those kids that were sexually abused did become gay? Or rather look at the # of gay people that were sexually abused as children... Or the patterns of alcoholism? Polygamy?

Kifle, How do you figure "now we are aethiests". My wife's mother has raised 6 kids to adult hood, 3 more on the way. The last 5 she was particularly disciplined about raising and all are fanatic christians in her specific brand of crazy, 2 of which are adults. I think you need to seriously re-evaulate your premise. I think you want to think that you are your own man and to think that someone else shaped your views, that it wasn't your own self determination at work, goes against everything you believe. face the facts, you can brainwash people, you can teach them a doctrine that many will accept. Its not perfect in either direction, I wouldn't guarantee I could raise 100% of my kids in any given way, but to say that kids are going to be whomever they want to be is missing the point that I can tell them who they want to be... perhaps to such a degree that it becomes their dream, not just mine.

Why do so many parents find it difficult to stop having their kids like devil rock music? Why is there theft? Why are kids mean to each other? Why do children do anything wrong at all? Because brainwashing is easy. Because it is so difficult to wash out genetics. You aren't god, man. You just can't do it.

== why did they let their kids listen to devil rock music in the first place? Sure an undisciplined and permissive parent who doesn't have the force of will to override their child's impuses can't do it, but I'm sure some can. It doesn't take god man, it takes someone who is willing to put in the effort to manifest their will in others.

Also, can you show me causation between genetics and any of the behaviors you cited? I haven't seen it.
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:27 pm

Actually, evidence exists that indicates that sexual orientation has genetic influences. For instance, one study I came across found some maternal influence on sexual orientation.
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:01 pm

kiryan wrote:Surely you've heard of the cycle of violence Ashiwi? How many of those kids that were sexually abused did become gay? Or rather look at the # of gay people that were sexually abused as children... Or the patterns of alcoholism? Polygamy?

Kifle, How do you figure "now we are aethiests". My wife's mother has raised 6 kids to adult hood, 3 more on the way. The last 5 she was particularly disciplined about raising and all are fanatic christians in her specific brand of crazy, 2 of which are adults. I think you need to seriously re-evaulate your premise. I think you want to think that you are your own man and to think that someone else shaped your views, that it wasn't your own self determination at work, goes against everything you believe. face the facts, you can brainwash people, you can teach them a doctrine that many will accept. Its not perfect in either direction, I wouldn't guarantee I could raise 100% of my kids in any given way, but to say that kids are going to be whomever they want to be is missing the point that I can tell them who they want to be... perhaps to such a degree that it becomes their dream, not just mine.

Why do so many parents find it difficult to stop having their kids like devil rock music? Why is there theft? Why are kids mean to each other? Why do children do anything wrong at all? Because brainwashing is easy. Because it is so difficult to wash out genetics. You aren't god, man. You just can't do it.

== why did they let their kids listen to devil rock music in the first place? Sure an undisciplined and permissive parent who doesn't have the force of will to override their child's impuses can't do it, but I'm sure some can. It doesn't take god man, it takes someone who is willing to put in the effort to manifest their will in others.

Also, can you show me causation between genetics and any of the behaviors you cited? I haven't seen it.



Are you going to censor what your children are subjected too in school? Are you going to go in during thier recess and lunch hours to make sure thier friends are subjectin them to 'devil music'? As much as you try to shelter your kids from those kinds of influences, eventually they will come across them, and if they decide they like it and you forbid them from listening/doing it, they are just going to hate and resent you. They will become thier own person wether you like it or not.

The influence of peer pressure during the teenage years far out does the influence of the parents. Mind you if you do train them into becoming brain washed robots automatically doing everything you tell them too, you might luck out....
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:49 am

You say that like that's the only outcome. Not all kids are dumb, ungrateful shits, some actually had good parenting.
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby kiryan » Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:24 am

amena wolfsnarl wrote:
kiryan wrote:Surely you've heard of the cycle of violence Ashiwi? How many of those kids that were sexually abused did become gay? Or rather look at the # of gay people that were sexually abused as children... Or the patterns of alcoholism? Polygamy?

Kifle, How do you figure "now we are aethiests". My wife's mother has raised 6 kids to adult hood, 3 more on the way. The last 5 she was particularly disciplined about raising and all are fanatic christians in her specific brand of crazy, 2 of which are adults. I think you need to seriously re-evaulate your premise. I think you want to think that you are your own man and to think that someone else shaped your views, that it wasn't your own self determination at work, goes against everything you believe. face the facts, you can brainwash people, you can teach them a doctrine that many will accept. Its not perfect in either direction, I wouldn't guarantee I could raise 100% of my kids in any given way, but to say that kids are going to be whomever they want to be is missing the point that I can tell them who they want to be... perhaps to such a degree that it becomes their dream, not just mine.

Why do so many parents find it difficult to stop having their kids like devil rock music? Why is there theft? Why are kids mean to each other? Why do children do anything wrong at all? Because brainwashing is easy. Because it is so difficult to wash out genetics. You aren't god, man. You just can't do it.

== why did they let their kids listen to devil rock music in the first place? Sure an undisciplined and permissive parent who doesn't have the force of will to override their child's impuses can't do it, but I'm sure some can. It doesn't take god man, it takes someone who is willing to put in the effort to manifest their will in others.

Also, can you show me causation between genetics and any of the behaviors you cited? I haven't seen it.



Are you going to censor what your children are subjected too in school? Are you going to go in during thier recess and lunch hours to make sure thier friends are subjectin them to 'devil music'? As much as you try to shelter your kids from those kinds of influences, eventually they will come across them, and if they decide they like it and you forbid them from listening/doing it, they are just going to hate and resent you. They will become thier own person wether you like it or not.

The influence of peer pressure during the teenage years far out does the influence of the parents. Mind you if you do train them into becoming brain washed robots automatically doing everything you tell them too, you might luck out....



If I wanted to raise my kid gay and be very sure of my success then yes I would censor what they are subject too until they had fully internalized whatever programming I have decided to give them. I would insulate them from outside influences by either homeschooling them or surrounding them with like minded individuals. And while the outcome you suggest is a common outcome, I would suggest that most often it results from a poor approach and methodology.

Finally, not every kid rebels from their parents teaching. Again, I'll submit the example of polygamists.


Teflor, links do not causation make. I've seen some research what suggests there may be a genetic influence, but nothing with strong correlation and certainly not proven by any but a wishful standard. Based on some of my interactions with troubled highschoolers several appeared in my opinion to engage in bi/homo sexual behavior for acceptance from their peer group. Its not a stretch to imagine that if they have a positive reaction then they may make the behavior part of their identity. Now whether this makes them gay or just engaging in gay behavior thats not a distinction im willing to make, its gay.
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Kifle » Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:08 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:Actually, evidence exists that indicates that sexual orientation has environmental influences. For instance, one study I came across found that homosexual men were more likely to have an older brother.


All homosexual men were found to have parents. Correlation =/= causation. This shows nothing.
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Kifle » Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:33 pm

kiryan wrote:Surely you've heard of the cycle of violence Ashiwi? How many of those kids that were sexually abused did become gay? Or rather look at the # of gay people that were sexually abused as children... Or the patterns of alcoholism? Polygamy?

Kifle, How do you figure "now we are aethiests". My wife's mother has raised 6 kids to adult hood, 3 more on the way. The last 5 she was particularly disciplined about raising and all are fanatic christians in her specific brand of crazy, 2 of which are adults. I think you need to seriously re-evaulate your premise. I think you want to think that you are your own man and to think that someone else shaped your views, that it wasn't your own self determination at work, goes against everything you believe. face the facts, you can brainwash people, you can teach them a doctrine that many will accept. Its not perfect in either direction, I wouldn't guarantee I could raise 100% of my kids in any given way, but to say that kids are going to be whomever they want to be is missing the point that I can tell them who they want to be... perhaps to such a degree that it becomes their dream, not just mine.

Why do so many parents find it difficult to stop having their kids like devil rock music? Why is there theft? Why are kids mean to each other? Why do children do anything wrong at all? Because brainwashing is easy. Because it is so difficult to wash out genetics. You aren't god, man. You just can't do it.

== why did they let their kids listen to devil rock music in the first place? Sure an undisciplined and permissive parent who doesn't have the force of will to override their child's impuses can't do it, but I'm sure some can. It doesn't take god man, it takes someone who is willing to put in the effort to manifest their will in others.

Also, can you show me causation between genetics and any of the behaviors you cited? I haven't seen it.


I'm talking about we and in myself and other atheists, not you specifically or your family which makes up a smaller portion of society. And if I remember correctly, it was certain life events, rather than parenting, that pushed you into the Christian faith. Just saying.

As for the music, you don't control what your kid does outside of the house. My parents were great, and they would make us listen to oldies and church music on car rides. I didn't hate the music, but I preferred rock; so, when I was out of the house, with my friends, we'd listen to Motley Crue and Guns N Roses. It was nothing my parents did or didn't do, it was because I had free will when I left the house. We never missed a day in church (2/wk), after a certain age, puberty, I started refusing to go. There was nothing short of physically forcing me to go that would bring me to church. Punishments were given out, but it just wasn't happening. If they would have forced me to go, you know what would have happened? I would have resented them, talked to them less, held my beliefs, and I wouldn't have the great relationship I have with them now.

Now, personally, no I don't think I'm the master of my own destiny. I'm well aware that many of my beliefs are an amalgamation of the beliefs of others that I've been exposed to over the years; however, choosing to believe most of them are my choice which fits with my logical framework of reality. Here's what you're not adding to the equation: I wasn't a sheltered child. When I walked into the streets, I didn't say, "no evolution is bad because I'm a christian" I said, "Oh, tell me more. I'd like to make my own choice." Hence, I weighed all of the arguments in my head and came to a conclusion. My conclusion was that there was a very low probability there there is a God, the Bible makes absolutely no sense outside of what it has stolen from Eastern Philosophy, the Christian god is logically untenable, the Christian god is an asshole, holy texts are always written by man, man is a greedy, self-endulgent, egoistic species; therefore, the conclusion was easy to arrive at -- for me.

Now, sure, you can steer your kids. I do it all the time. My son loves hockey because I love hockey. He wanted to impress me as a child and he did it through watching games with me. That love of the sport has carried on and it is now his own. He has adopted my love of hockey. Now, would he have if there weren't anything to love? I don't think so. Eventually there would be a schism within his subconscious which would case an internal conflict. That conflict would be eventually bubble to the surface, and one day he would realize he doesn't really like hockey -- because there is nothing to like. As evidence of this, why do my children not also love Tool? Early in development, they loved the music and would ask for it to be played in the car for the same reasons as my son loved hockey. I was actually more adamant that they enjoy my music than my taste in professional sports. What is funny here, is that as I still pushed for Tool, I rarely pushed for hockey. I let my children have more of a choice in sports than music. Now, my teenagers are split, one likes hockey, the other doesn't. Neither of them prefer tool to new age music. My youngest still wants my approval more than anything, so anything I like, she likes -- unless my wife doesn't like it, then she likes what my wife likes.

The simple fact is, if molding a child was as simplistic and 100% foolproof as you make it out to be, all children would be exact molds of their parents. Every parent wants their child to have their views, beliefs, taste, etc. Most of them try endlessly to accomplish this feat; Nevertheless, this is hardly ever the case. And, no offense, but you don't have the magic recipe for success here. And I find it ironic that you of all people show this level of hubris.

One final thought: Teenagers are notorious for their rebellion stage. This is not some new idea -- it is as close to fact as human behavior studies can be. You are attempting to reengineer human genetics through psychology -- which is impossible. Once they hit that stage, you mitigate what you can, and hope they come out on the right side of the tunnel for the rest. Your main problem is that you don't factor in society and the siren's call of pleasure and instant gratification. This is why sex is as powerful as it is. Couple sex with the genetic tendency and hormonal pull, and you've got teenagers fucking constantly. You don't stop it, you mitigate the damage. It's like standing in front of a train moving 70mph and thinking you can stop it with your hands. You just can't. You make sure the track is clean and headed in the right direction, and you jump out of the way. Society is stronger than you. Unless you create another village a la "village" the movie, you're going to be sadly disappointed.
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Kifle » Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:42 pm

kiryan wrote:Also, can you show me causation between genetics and any of the behaviors you cited? I haven't seen it.


Here is a species independent history of behavioral genetics http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/H ... vior.shtml

Here is one specific to developmental behavior in children http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1188235/

Here is one specific to teen deliquency http://www.canada.com/topics/news/natio ... 542c48258b

In the last one you will not that social can "moderate" these behaviors; however, fixing them is short of impossible.

I'll find more if you really want me to.
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:42 pm

Kifle wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:Actually, evidence exists that indicates that sexual orientation has environmental influences. For instance, one study I came across found that homosexual men were more likely to have an older brother.


All homosexual men were found to have parents. Correlation =/= causation. This shows nothing.

I did not make the case for causation. I only stated that the correlation indicates evidence for environmental influence. It shows more than is shown that sexuality isn't a choice. Ditto to Kiryan, ditto to the same thing I posted as evidence of genetic influences.

In both/either cases, it's more evidence than either of you have come across for the opposite of either, so I don't see how either of you have an inch of space to bullshit.
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Kifle » Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:49 pm

Here is an article which outlines the decline in Christianity from 8% to 15%. Notice also the decline from childhood church goers to teenage goers to adult goers. The numbers, if you don't want to read the article, go from 95% in elementary down to 55% in high school. That's a 40% decline in the age range between the children you have experience with to the ones I'm talking about and have experience with. The number goes down even further to 11% at adulthood. As the brain develops, as the child is exposed to society and science and has the cerebral ability to understand complex issues such as religion and science, almost 90% abandon the notion of religion. You will see the same trend in parental control, not exactly, but it is similar. As the child is able to mentally question the parent, the parent's opinions are taken for what they are -- opinions. Early children take what you say as fact. Notice also this is a christian website, and the sect of christianity is Evangelical -- one of the more strict of them all. You can't do it, man.

http://signsofthelastdays.com/archives/ ... in-america
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Kifle » Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:03 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kifle wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:Actually, evidence exists that indicates that sexual orientation has environmental influences. For instance, one study I came across found that homosexual men were more likely to have an older brother.


All homosexual men were found to have parents. Correlation =/= causation. This shows nothing.

I did not make the case for causation. I only stated that the correlation indicates evidence for environmental influence. It shows more than is shown that sexuality isn't a choice. Ditto to Kiryan, ditto to the same thing I posted as evidence of genetic influences.

In both/either cases, it's more evidence than either of you have come across for the opposite of either, so I don't see how either of you have an inch of space to bullshit.


It doesn't show evidence of anything. It shows that something is in close proximity to another. It's the weakest example of inductive logic available to science. Until there is shown a causal link to older brothers and homosexual men, this can be taken as nothing more than a happenstance and an unrealized percentile due to sample size. To explain, you use the coin flipping game. The outcome, logically, over a number of flips, in a perfectly weighted coin, will be 50% heads 50% tails; however, over periods, you will see the flips favoring one over the other. If you stop at 900 flips, 400 being heads 500 being tails, you get a skewed perception of reality in relation to percentages. However, if you just have the data from the 900 flips, you can make the assumption, through inductive logic, that tails shows a higher chance to show heads up on the flip. Since we are both familiar with this type of example, we both know that that is a horrible conclusion.

Taking this a step further to connect to the brother hypothesis, it doesn't show evidence environmental influence whatsoever. It COULD, but it doesn't. First of all, it is a simplistic hypothesis and study. It is a rough observation. In logic, it would be a hasty generalization. Furthermore, genetics play a part in whether or not you have a tendency to breed boys or girls (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 121835.htm). Now, were these families where this correlation was found checked for genetic tendency for breeding males rather than females? Were these households where there were 3 boys, 2 boys, 2 boys and a daughter, 3 daughters and 2 boys? How many of them had older sisters? Does having no sisters indicate an increase in homosexuality while having an older brother is found to be meaningless? It doesn't mean anything.

This is nothing more than a random observation which doesn't even look at (and this is an assumption as I haven't seen where you got this statistic) genetics, breeding patterns and tendencies, other environmental impacts, etc. Were these homosexual males tested genetically to see if they have the "gay gene"? For that, they have ignored the most important link to homosexuality in order to show an environmental causal link. This is bad science if it could be called science at all. It's like saying gravity doesn't work because the acceleration found doesn't match up with Newton's equations -- yet they didn't factor in wind resistance, drag coefficients on the material of the object observed, rotation of the object, etc.

Edit: I'm arguing your pointing toward causation because that is what you're doing. Talking about any correlation indicating anything other than correlation (in this case environmental influence [read: causation]). Why else use correlation if not to indicate causation? Otherwise, you're just talking to talk.
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:56 pm

Kifle wrote:I'm arguing your pointing toward causation because that is what you're doing.


Teflor Lyorian wrote:Actually, evidence exists that indicates that sexual orientation has environmental influences. For instance, one study I came across found that homosexual men were more likely to have an older brother.

Teflor Lyorian wrote:Actually, evidence exists that indicates that sexual orientation has genetic influences. For instance, one study I came across found some maternal influence on sexual orientation.


it is the weakest evidence possible, but it's evidence and more than anyone else has come across or suggested. You'll note that I presented it for both choice and genetics. How could I be arguing for causation on BOTH conflicting points?

I think you may have glossed over the two posts I made that conflict with each other intentionally.

My point being, what evidence science has is weak, and what it has doesn't necessarily agree to even a one-or-the-other situation. Sexuality is still under scrutiny and the strong bullshit claims I've seen from both points in this thread aren't backed by any science.

Looking at the evidence, my theory based on the weak evidence is that sexuality has both genetic and environmental influences - nature and nurture factors. But I won't defend that theory. I have not come across strong evidence and not for a lack of looking. This particular area of science is so highly politicized that serious scientists study other things.
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Kifle » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:29 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kifle wrote:I'm arguing your pointing toward causation because that is what you're doing.


Teflor Lyorian wrote:Actually, evidence exists that indicates that sexual orientation has environmental influences. For instance, one study I came across found that homosexual men were more likely to have an older brother.

Teflor Lyorian wrote:Actually, evidence exists that indicates that sexual orientation has genetic influences. For instance, one study I came across found some maternal influence on sexual orientation.


it is the weakest evidence possible, but it's evidence and more than anyone else has come across or suggested. You'll note that I presented it for both choice and genetics. How could I be arguing for causation on BOTH conflicting points?

I think you may have glossed over the two posts I made that conflict with each other intentionally.

My point being, what evidence science has is weak, and what it has doesn't necessarily agree to even a one-or-the-other situation. Sexuality is still under scrutiny and the strong bullshit claims I've seen from both points in this thread aren't backed by any science.

Looking at the evidence, my theory based on the weak evidence is that sexuality has both genetic and environmental influences - nature and nurture factors. But I won't defend that theory. I have not come across strong evidence and not for a lack of looking. This particular area of science is so highly politicized that serious scientists study other things.


The environmental "evidence" is what I'm arguing, hence I skipped over the other; although, I don't know if I'd put too much stock in it either. Also, because I neglected your other post doesn't change the fact that my statements about the environmental issue were correct. I will still stand by it as it was originally written. That being said, yes, homosexuality causes are a new discipline, and all science that leads to any conclusions are going to be dubious to a certain extent, but we can easily see and show one being much moreso than the other as I have. Any further discussion about this has been covered by the other thread about homosexuality, and I stand strongly behind my claims there. Genetics indicate strongly that homosexuality is not a learned behavior. It can be, as I know some "choice" lesbians due to bad hetero relationships, but the majority do not fall into this category.
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:18 pm

What genetics? I haven't seen any strong evidence that genetics are even associated with homosexuality and none was presented in the other thread.

Also, you may be referring in that case to bisexuality - where those 'lesbians' by choice were potentially attracted to both, and simply chose to prefer attraction to one over the other, thus preserving your potential for an entirely nature over nurture argument for biologically determined sexuality.
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Kifle » Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:32 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:What genetics? I haven't seen any strong evidence that genetics are even associated with homosexuality and none was presented in the other thread.

Also, you may be referring in that case to bisexuality - where those 'lesbians' by choice were potentially attracted to both, and simply chose to prefer attraction to one over the other, thus preserving your potential for an entirely nature over nurture argument for biologically determined sexuality.


No, the ones I know were never attracted to women until their male relationships went far into the negative. I would imagine it stemmed more from an ability to bond well with the same sex, which may or may not have progressed into sexual desire. I don't keep up on their sex life. This is entirely a nurture argument, which is against the majority of my claims; however, I've never said nurture doesn't play a part; I've simply stated that homosexuality is not a choice -- in the majority of cases. And, again, I define homosexuality differently than most. Homosexuality, for me, is not simply having sex with the same sex, it is desiring sex from the same sex with a lack of desire for sex with the opposite sex. By this definition, I would have to know more about the couple I know to realistically qualify them as homosexuals rather than just man haters who like sharing financial loads and friendship.
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Kifle » Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:41 pm

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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:13 am

Kifle wrote:Now for genetics studies:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9549243

http://newsfeed.time.com/2010/07/16/hom ... s-in-mice/

I'd look for more, but I'm lazy.

From what I understand, these are animal studies and the authors frequently question whether or not they can translate well into humans. It's interesting that the first paper indicates that genetics only account for only "half of the variance in sexual orientation."

It seems that the articles you quoted seem to support my theory of nature + nurture, though still indefensible.
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:15 am

Kifle wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:What genetics? I haven't seen any strong evidence that genetics are even associated with homosexuality and none was presented in the other thread.

Also, you may be referring in that case to bisexuality - where those 'lesbians' by choice were potentially attracted to both, and simply chose to prefer attraction to one over the other, thus preserving your potential for an entirely nature over nurture argument for biologically determined sexuality.


No, the ones I know were never attracted to women until their male relationships went far into the negative. I would imagine it stemmed more from an ability to bond well with the same sex, which may or may not have progressed into sexual desire. I don't keep up on their sex life. This is entirely a nurture argument, which is against the majority of my claims; however, I've never said nurture doesn't play a part; I've simply stated that homosexuality is not a choice -- in the majority of cases. And, again, I define homosexuality differently than most. Homosexuality, for me, is not simply having sex with the same sex, it is desiring sex from the same sex with a lack of desire for sex with the opposite sex. By this definition, I would have to know more about the couple I know to realistically qualify them as homosexuals rather than just man haters who like sharing financial loads and friendship.

It's interesting. I've never met a lesbian that turned to it from poor relationships with males, but I suppose 30 isn't a good sample size :(
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Kifle » Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:26 am

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Kifle wrote:Now for genetics studies:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9549243

http://newsfeed.time.com/2010/07/16/hom ... s-in-mice/

I'd look for more, but I'm lazy.

From what I understand, these are animal studies and the authors frequently question whether or not they can translate well into humans. It's interesting that the first paper indicates that genetics only account for only "half of the variance in sexual orientation."

It seems that the articles you quoted seem to support my theory of nature + nurture, though still indefensible.


Right, like I said, I don't think the genetic approach is 100% accurate, or that nature doesn't have some sort of effect on one's proclivities, but I wouldn't say it's a conscious choice at all -- except in rare cases that I've come across. The nature aspect of homosexuality is more than likely limited to the same way we individually conceive of asthetics, such that they may internalize beauty rather than externalize by way of physical characteristics. The pleasure aspect of sex also would play an important role in that they may prefer prostate stimulation to penile. But, again, these are not conscious choices, they are subconscious tweaks. However, the evidence points more towards a genetic link, weak or not, which may simply be the initial push wish leads to these taste differences caused by nature. But, to say that every person has the choice to be gay is silly. I honestly can see no conceivable way in which I would have been gay at any point in my life. Basically, if homosexuality is a choice, why doesn't it work universally? If you tried really hard, do you think you could turn yourself gay?
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:55 pm

Kifle wrote:If you tried really hard, do you think you could turn yourself gay?

That's not a question I'm prepared to answer. Never tried, never thought to try, but can't in any way discount as impossible.
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby kiryan » Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:39 am

The simple fact is, if molding a child was as simplistic and 100% foolproof as you make it out to be, all children would be exact molds of their parents.


I'm pretty sure I've made it clear that A) not every parent has the will desire or ability to pull it off or B) that its not 100% even if you have what you need.

You are attempting to reengineer human genetics through psychology -- which is impossible.


You don't have to re-engineer genetics, you only have to manipulate the mind.

Your main problem is that you don't factor in society and the siren's call of pleasure and instant gratification.


I'm surprised you look at those as unstoppable forces and not things to manipulate to achieve your ends.

you're going to be sadly disappointed.


I'm sure I'll find many disappointments, but I'm pretty good at making what I want happen.
kiryan
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Re: Finger polish on a boy... is it really no big deal?

Postby kiryan » Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:13 am

It's interesting. I've never met a lesbian that turned to it from poor relationships with males, but I suppose 30 isn't a good sample size :(


I know at least 3 who had sexual trauma in their past.

But, to say that every person has the choice to be gay is silly. I honestly can see no conceivable way in which I would have been gay at any point in my life. Basically, if homosexuality is a choice, why doesn't it work universally? If you tried really hard, do you think you could turn yourself gay?


Really... have you tried it? From a pleasure perspective, a hand is a hand, oral is oral and IIRC about a decade ago Kifle you were telling me about the biological advantages of anal (# of nerve endings, muscles etc). I may never be attracted to a man, but I could certainly put my dick in one if I was just a leaf blowing in societies winds of how did you put it something about genetics and societies pressures? Thats gay in my book even if I don't play catcher... so yea I could be gay if I wanted.

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