DKP Bidding

Gameplay discussion, questions and ideas.
Dalar
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DKP Bidding

Postby Dalar » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:10 pm

Here is a new bidding system I will introduce to Bahamut once Gerin has approved and all feedback has been addressed. Keep in mind there are two buckets of feedback. Does this system work in general? Does this system work with a direct switchover? Also keep in mind that we will never have a volance/loop issue with Bahamut because there are a ton of items and they are all powers meaning they only charge when worn so more than 1 of anything is a waste.

The main reason I have been brainstorming this is because I actually like leading Bahamut, I want a couple of items from here, and I want to see equipment more evenly split. At first I thought of claiming but claiming is frowned upon these days for some reason. I was going to do it anyways given i've lost 4x times and lead once on top of working with Gerin on tactics but I didn't feel that was fair to some of the others who have also lost all 4 runs too. I also don't like how people can beat out 7 other people with 100 points (he won the previous run, only 2 runs total) and a few people saw Rodhal win volance with 100 points as well the week prior.

Afu reminded me of DKP bidding and I thought that was a good way to address both my concern on not winning and others. I have also been vocal of this bidding system sucking for Tiamat with me being 2nd to highest points for a few runs as well as Lili having 2900 fucking points... anyways let's talk about the new system.

The current point acquisition system remains intact. 100 points split into 5 sections of Bahamut, penalties given based on AFKing sections of it (if you didn't see this, i did penalties on Ikhar + Hibbidy for afking regardless of warning mainly because they just weren't participating. Nothing wrong with this).

The way points are depleted and the determination of winner will be by an active silent auction of points.

For example, let's say a Bahamut split looks like this:

Mantle of Battlerager
hollowed claw
tear of astral deva
flail of iron
belt of mercury scales
Druid mask
harp
chalice
vial of bahamut's jizz
obsidian blade
haversack
paws of cheetah
ring of wizardry
invoker orb

Leader calls out "send in one item you actually want. I will bid out the items based on order of want".
So say 7 people vote for blade, 5 people vote for mantle, 4 people vote for paws, 3 people vote for wizardy, 2 people vote for invoker orb (21 votes total in this example). The bid order will be blade/mantle/paws/wizardy/invoker then i will just go down the list.

[*]Minimum bid is 100 points unless nobody wants the item. Will drop to 75, then 50, then 25, then gdice
[*]You can bid on any item at any time as long as you haven't won an item that run
[*]In the case of a tie, winner is handled through gdice. This might be up to scrutiny as people can collude but since it's silent bidding it makes it tougher.

Leader gsays "send tells with amount to bid on mantle". Leader receives 10 tells (you are not tied to what you voted on first)

Player 1 bids 300
Player 2 bids 400
Player 3 bids 250
Player 3-10 bids 100-150

Leader says "top bid is 400, send in bids"

Player 2 doesn't bid as he was top last time
Player 10 bids 500 because he has a sudden change of heart
Player 1 bids 450
I assume Player 3-9 are silent since they haven't said anything

Leader says 'top bid is 500, send in bids"

Player 2 says he's out just as a courtesy
Player 10 doesn't say anything
Player 1 bids 550

Leader says 'top bid is 550, send in bids"

Player 10 says he's out

Leader says 'gratz to Player 1 with 550 points.

Thoughts on this system over the long run?

Why implementing into the current system is OK

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

At the time of this post, we have Dartan at 475, Verarb/Hibbidy at 300+, 6 people at 200+, 8 people at 100+, 5 people at 50+, 13 winners last run, 9 of which were first round winners.

Depending how the loot drops and how the bids go, it could very well mean Dartan/Verarb/Hibbidy all get a "claim" but at the cost of depleting most of their points or they could not be in attendance or they bid on a smaller point item since the one item they really want didn't load. The people in the following run at 200+ will get "claims" and we basically leapfrog. Keep in mind a lot of people haven't won a single item first round as well as second round while some have won 2-3 already so introducing this now is basically supporting the old losers and encouraging them to keep going while promoting the old winners into the winners of the next run.

FAQ:

Isn't this like Lili's plat system she tried to introduce a while back?

No. Platinum is a farmable resource with the farming spread by how much you can bot while Bahamut points are community assigned.

I'm new and this is my first run. Why would I want to go if I have 0 chance of winning on that run?

You are benefiting from everyone's work to get the zone time down and there are other people in the same boat due to previous wins. Second, being new, there are items you will want that everyone has and probably spent more than 100 points on so you coming in this late you will get good items at 100 points.

I don't like this system so what if I don't go?

So far the majority of people I talked to are interested and willing to try. 6 people so far. The people who don't realize the fairness of this system that is used in MMOs since 1997ish will just be further behind in Bahamut points and I guess can scoop up the lesser items for cheap later.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Re: DKP Bidding

Postby Theshial » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:21 pm

If looking for fairness, straight up gdice with no points. not a fan of this new system.
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Re: DKP Bidding

Postby i982 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:19 pm

so as the weeks go the bidding system changes... in your favor... seems legit.

also this bidding system was flawed at design and is rarely used in ANY mmo anymore.

specially since you can item feed based on who sends you their bids.

why not do a loot council of you and some friends and you guys get to debate who to feed loot too?
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Re: DKP Bidding

Postby Dalar » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:23 pm

i982 wrote:so as the weeks go the bidding system changes... in your favor... seems legit.

also this bidding system was flawed at design and is rarely used in ANY mmo anymore.

specially since you can item feed based on who sends you their bids.

why not do a loot council of you and some friends and you guys get to debate who to feed loot too?


I've done both systems. Officer loot and dkp bidding and actually another system that's a hybrid of both. Officer loot lead to alot of bickering so I won't go back there again. We had 0 issues with dkp bidding or the hybrid dkp bidding.

Did a quick google search. DKP is rarely used in MMOs now because they went to loot council but more importantly it's because of how WoW gives out loot now and how the difficulty progression scales. Loot council is the best loot method because you have the same roster every run generally, you need your damage characters to get more gear faster, and the actual loot dropping is selectable (ie i get a token and can pick damage, tank, or healing gear). In Bahamut or even Tiamat, our damage won't magically jump by wearing Bahamut gear so gear is basically cosmetic, and we have a rotating roster of 30-40 people

Imagine if Bahamut just dropped 11 gold seals (spob) on a full run. Imagine if we needed all of our rangers to get gear to progress through the zone and we could only kill 4 tower every week until we had enough to gear to actually kill Bahamut. Yes your comments make sense. To say DKP is flawed and never worked is absolutely false as I actually played WoW through the DKP phase and it worked for a very good reason.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Re: DKP Bidding

Postby Dalar » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:30 pm

Theshial wrote:If looking for fairness, straight up gdice with no points. not a fan of this new system.


You know we didn't do this for Tiamat to try to introduce some fairness. DKP is much more fair. I recommend giving this method a shot.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Re: DKP Bidding

Postby Vooku » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:30 am

Good luck getting low point people to spend 6+ hours when their chances of getting a top item with this system is about zero. Their chances before wasn't very good, but at least there was a chance. I'm at 100 points.. I won't go again under this point system. I'd have to go at least 3 more times to be able to compete for a top item. That's like 15-20 hours for pretty much nothing.

You mention having 2900 points... you know how she has 2900 points? She's lost a crap load of 1st round Tia items. I've won Tia items with 100 pnts and I've won Tia items with 1200 points. It's all based on probability.

I hope I'm wrong and plenty of people join and like this system.
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Dalar
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Re: DKP Bidding

Postby Dalar » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:14 am

Vooku wrote:Good luck getting low point people to spend 6+ hours when their chances of getting a top item with this system is about zero. Their chances before wasn't very good, but at least there was a chance. I'm at 100 points.. I won't go again under this point system. I'd have to go at least 3 more times to be able to compete for a top item. That's like 15-20 hours for pretty much nothing.

You mention having 2900 points... you know how she has 2900 points? She's lost a crap load of 1st round Tia items. I've won Tia items with 100 pnts and I've won Tia items with 1200 points. It's all based on probability.

I hope I'm wrong and plenty of people join and like this system.


You are assuming there is only 1 top item that everyone will dogpile on like there is in Tiamat. I assume you are looking at the hitter items which I argued in your post is not enough of.

Bahamut actually has multiple chances to get great items, specifically in the blade slot, the paws spot, maybe mask spot if a hitter mask exists, maybe a hitter offhand if that exists, incardine and battlerager. There are multiple times for people above you in points to bid on. Also, the blade spot was me, ssuke, verarb, kayos, areh, you so yea you are right if none of those other items Verarb/Kayos/and I want come up in 3 runs you still have a pretty good shot. Last run Kayos bid on strand while Verarb bid on druid mask.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Re: DKP Bidding

Postby Diel » Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:48 am

So let me get this straight. People who have lots of points have put in a lot of time and have won nothing. People with few or no points have put in little effort or have already won something. Where is the unfairness of this? Leaders these days get zero credit for all the effort put toward dealing with an entire group of people (or robots in recent days).

I don't see why anyone even argues with someone who is willing to take you to the treasure you so badly want, especially when nobody else is up to the task.

Tiamat used to happen once a year and winning was a huge privilege. It would take one person the better part of their life to complete a full class set. Now this is done every weekend and I've seen people come out of retirement and build a complete set in just a few months. What's the big deal if you lose and have to try again next weekend, or *gasp* the weekend after!? With 100 more points?!

People don't have time to do 8 hours every weekend. I get that. I've only gained 135 points over a handful of runs. But with Shev letting us split up the zone, everyone is free to come and go as they please. What's the hurry to win? What will you do after you win everything you want? Bitch about there being no new content? This zone has barely been in the game for two months and only 2 people have stepped up to lead, and the followers are shaming one of those leaders for trying to get something for all his effort in leading AND learning the zone so everyone can actually complete the zone and get the loot.

Come on people. Just deal with it if you're not willing to lead it your way. Leading is hard. Try it some time.
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Re: DKP Bidding

Postby i982 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:04 am

Dalar wrote:
i982 wrote:so as the weeks go the bidding system changes... in your favor... seems legit.

also this bidding system was flawed at design and is rarely used in ANY mmo anymore.

specially since you can item feed based on who sends you their bids.

why not do a loot council of you and some friends and you guys get to debate who to feed loot too?


I've done both systems. Officer loot and dkp bidding and actually another system that's a hybrid of both. Officer loot lead to alot of bickering so I won't go back there again. We had 0 issues with dkp bidding or the hybrid dkp bidding.

Did a quick google search. DKP is rarely used in MMOs now because they went to loot council but more importantly it's because of how WoW gives out loot now and how the difficulty progression scales. Loot council is the best loot method because you have the same roster every run generally, you need your damage characters to get more gear faster, and the actual loot dropping is selectable (ie i get a token and can pick damage, tank, or healing gear). In Bahamut or even Tiamat, our damage won't magically jump by wearing Bahamut gear so gear is basically cosmetic, and we have a rotating roster of 30-40 people

Imagine if Bahamut just dropped 11 gold seals (spob) on a full run. Imagine if we needed all of our rangers to get gear to progress through the zone and we could only kill 4 tower every week until we had enough to gear to actually kill Bahamut. Yes your comments make sense. To say DKP is flawed and never worked is absolutely false as I actually played WoW through the DKP phase and it worked for a very good reason.


lili's loot system is the most fair and honest next to gerins which is to have an elemental do the rolling (using lili's tia loot system) rather than a player since he believe lili has code to control the dice..

no one uses loot council either.. years ago it was switched to various addons which handled the bidding and points.
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Re: DKP Bidding

Postby i982 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:07 am

Diel wrote:So let me get this straight. People who have lots of points have put in a lot of time and have won nothing. People with few or no points have put in little effort or have already won something. Where is the unfairness of this? Leaders these days get zero credit for all the effort put toward dealing with an entire group of people (or robots in recent days).

I don't see why anyone even argues with someone who is willing to take you to the treasure you so badly want, especially when nobody else is up to the task.

Tiamat used to happen once a year and winning was a huge privilege. It would take one person the better part of their life to complete a full class set. Now this is done every weekend and I've seen people come out of retirement and build a complete set in just a few months. What's the big deal if you lose and have to try again next weekend, or *gasp* the weekend after!? With 100 more points?!

People don't have time to do 8 hours every weekend. I get that. I've only gained 135 points over a handful of runs. But with Shev letting us split up the zone, everyone is free to come and go as they please. What's the hurry to win? What will you do after you win everything you want? Bitch about there being no new content? This zone has barely been in the game for two months and only 2 people have stepped up to lead, and the followers are shaming one of those leaders for trying to get something for all his effort in leading AND learning the zone so everyone can actually complete the zone and get the loot.

Come on people. Just deal with it if you're not willing to lead it your way. Leading is hard. Try it some time.


hes free to lead/loot however he wants. i dont mine waiting till lili starts leading it and then ill attend for an unbiased loot chance. shrug. enough time goes by maybe the loot from bahamut will actually be fixed/work by the time lili starts leading it.
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Re: DKP Bidding

Postby Dalar » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:16 am

i982 wrote:
Dalar wrote:
i982 wrote:so as the weeks go the bidding system changes... in your favor... seems legit.

also this bidding system was flawed at design and is rarely used in ANY mmo anymore.

specially since you can item feed based on who sends you their bids.

why not do a loot council of you and some friends and you guys get to debate who to feed loot too?


I've done both systems. Officer loot and dkp bidding and actually another system that's a hybrid of both. Officer loot lead to alot of bickering so I won't go back there again. We had 0 issues with dkp bidding or the hybrid dkp bidding.

Did a quick google search. DKP is rarely used in MMOs now because they went to loot council but more importantly it's because of how WoW gives out loot now and how the difficulty progression scales. Loot council is the best loot method because you have the same roster every run generally, you need your damage characters to get more gear faster, and the actual loot dropping is selectable (ie i get a token and can pick damage, tank, or healing gear). In Bahamut or even Tiamat, our damage won't magically jump by wearing Bahamut gear so gear is basically cosmetic, and we have a rotating roster of 30-40 people

Imagine if Bahamut just dropped 11 gold seals (spob) on a full run. Imagine if we needed all of our rangers to get gear to progress through the zone and we could only kill 4 tower every week until we had enough to gear to actually kill Bahamut. Yes your comments make sense. To say DKP is flawed and never worked is absolutely false as I actually played WoW through the DKP phase and it worked for a very good reason.


lili's loot system is the most fair and honest next to gerins which is to have an elemental do the rolling (using lili's tia loot system) rather than a player since he believe lili has code to control the dice..

no one uses loot council either.. years ago it was switched to various addons which handled the bidding and points.


https://www.google.com/search?q=do+peop ... e&ie=UTF-8

top two links on dkp talk about how dkp was sunset in WOTLK and top guilds use loot council now.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Re: DKP Bidding

Postby Gormal » Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:26 am

I was asked to write some words on this subject.

I get the sense that DKP is being resurrected because it's already apparent that this zone isn't going to be done frequently. I think that's a great thing. The class revamps and proliferation of Tiamat/epic gear has removed the challenge from Toril, and with equipment and experience loss gone, the only thing at stake is your time. If you want a Nyybot-filled loot pinata, follow Ellen to whack on Tiamat to collect your fourth valhalla. But when a zone will be done less often and takes more time, I don't think it's wrong for Brian and Gerin want to reward committed players with more than slightly better RNG, as the current Tiamat system does. As bad as it might feel to do 3-4 Bahamuts before having enough points for the item you want, it's no worse than watching some 100-point hail mary pick up your Tiamat bid out of a 3000-point roll.

Saying that DKP has gone away in mainstream MMOs is a poor argument, because you mean WoW. And WoW's loot system has changed to forcing non-guild groups to use personal loot, killed GDKP by making cross-realm raids the norm, and there's no way anyone knows what individual guilds are doing that don't just leave personal loot on (many still use loot council or DKP variants, so ignore Areh). Comparing Toril to a large MMO is silly in general, given the dwindling playerbase and antiquated loot system.
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Re: DKP Bidding

Postby i982 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:55 pm

Gormal wrote:I was asked to write some words on this subject.

Saying that DKP has gone away in mainstream MMOs is a poor argument, because you mean WoW. And WoW's loot system has changed to forcing non-guild groups to use personal loot, killed GDKP by making cross-realm raids the norm, and there's no way anyone knows what individual guilds are doing that don't just leave personal loot on (many still use loot council or DKP variants, so ignore Areh). Comparing Toril to a large MMO is silly in general, given the dwindling playerbase and antiquated loot system.


and clearly since you dont play any current MMO cause there are only 2. dkp style systems arent used because it excludes the aging player-base of mmo's who work/parent and are well beyond college.

first i value your opinion.. on a game you DONT play.

second dkp bidding system dalar is suggesting isnt even the way dkp worked and the actual dkp system hasnt been used in any of the following mmo's as a working system:

aion
wildstar
archeage
wow
eso
swtor
rift
ffxiv
ffxi
bdo
bns
tera
gw2

i could list 50 others.

also gormal... im retired. i can do every bahamut ever. period. this system would benefit me greatly.. but its a system that EXCLUDES new players or players who dont want to dedicate 2 weekends to a dead game.

no one that plays an mmo uses loot council unless they are on the council.. because of item feeding and greedy leaders.

lastly changing a loot system to DIRECTLY benefit specifically the person "leading" is my real argument against this system. it guarantees a claim next week for the guy counting the points. you would know that if you played this game.
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Re: DKP Bidding

Postby Dalar » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:01 pm

i982 wrote:
Gormal wrote:I was asked to write some words on this subject.

Saying that DKP has gone away in mainstream MMOs is a poor argument, because you mean WoW. And WoW's loot system has changed to forcing non-guild groups to use personal loot, killed GDKP by making cross-realm raids the norm, and there's no way anyone knows what individual guilds are doing that don't just leave personal loot on (many still use loot council or DKP variants, so ignore Areh). Comparing Toril to a large MMO is silly in general, given the dwindling playerbase and antiquated loot system.


and clearly since you dont play any current MMO cause there are only 2. dkp style systems arent used because it excludes the aging player-base of mmo's who work/parent and are well beyond college.

first i value your opinion.. on a game you DONT play.

second dkp bidding system dalar is suggesting isnt even the way dkp worked and the actual dkp system hasnt been used in any of the following mmo's as a working system:

aion
wildstar
archeage
wow
eso
swtor
rift
ffxiv
ffxi
bdo
bns
tera
gw2

i could list 50 others.

also gormal... im retired. i can do every bahamut ever. period. this system would benefit me greatly.. but its a system that EXCLUDES new players or players who dont want to dedicate 2 weekends to a dead game.

no one that plays an mmo uses loot council unless they are on the council.. because of item feeding and greedy leaders.

lastly changing a loot system to DIRECTLY benefit specifically the person "leading" is my real argument against this system. it guarantees a claim next week for the guy counting the points. you would know that if you played this game.


How far did you get in WoW, rift, ff14, wildstar, Archeage?

Also half of those MMOs don't even count for DKP because they just don't have bidding systems because there wasn't shit to bid on.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Re: DKP Bidding

Postby Gormal » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:19 pm

DKP and bid systems have always been handled internally for a given raid team. ie: private forums. ie: talkin out your ass, son.

And for the record: The current way you guys (ellen) run raids has already driven players away. Me, for one.
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Re: DKP Bidding

Postby i982 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:28 pm

[quote="
And for the record: The current way you guys (ellen) run raids has already driven players away. Me, for one.[/quote]

and im happy for that.
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Re: DKP Bidding

Postby Gormal » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:45 pm

never mind. you're not worth it.
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Re: DKP Bidding

Postby Vooku » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:55 am

Diel wrote:So let me get this straight. People who have lots of points have put in a lot of time and have won nothing. People with few or no points have put in little effort or have already won something. Where is the unfairness of this? Leaders these days get zero credit for all the effort put toward dealing with an entire group of people (or robots in recent days).


So you want people with lives (wife, kids, job, etc) to invest a 6 or 8 hour block of time with no chance of winning? Ok, that's fine, but expect people to pass. It would be different if it were 2-3 hours.

As for the items I guess we'll see. with 12 people ahead of me in points I'd guess I'd have to go on at least 10 runs before I had a shot at the blade. (assuming blade load rate is 25% and not all 12 people ahead of me also want the blade)

If I would have known the bid system for Bahamut was going to change I wouldn't have wasted points in bidding on an item for a class I don't play.
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Re: DKP Bidding

Postby Diel » Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:03 am

You don't find it at all annoying when the same people keep winning the good stuff, or someone who rarely ever plays swoops in to win the best item and disappear? There would be much more order with a new system. Everyone here has a life (I hope). I have yet to win anything and this is the only zone I actually need something from. With the amount of playing time I have on the weekends (due to this life thing), it's going to take months to get enough points to win a single item. But that's fair. If I were to take the time out of my life to lead a group, you're damn right I would insist on claiming an item to make it worth that 8 hour block out of my life away from my wife and kids.
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Re: DKP Bidding

Postby i982 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:46 am

Dalar wrote:How far did you get in WoW, rift, ff14, wildstar, Archeage?

Also half of those MMOs don't even count for DKP because they just don't have bidding systems because there wasn't shit to bid on.


does it really matter? you have clearly made up your mind to go with the shitty loot system already because gormal, lol, said you could. you can try and attack and make little quips at me in game, go for it. you asked for opinions. dont be a little bitch when you cant take feedback.
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Re: DKP Bidding

Postby Dalar » Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:58 am

i982 wrote:
Dalar wrote:How far did you get in WoW, rift, ff14, wildstar, Archeage?

Also half of those MMOs don't even count for DKP because they just don't have bidding systems because there wasn't shit to bid on.


does it really matter? you have clearly made up your mind to go with the shitty loot system already because gormal, lol, said you could. you can try and attack and make little quips at me in game, go for it. you asked for opinions. dont be a little bitch when you cant take feedback.


never mind. you're not worth it.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Re: DKP Bidding

Postby Gormal » Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:27 am

Vooku wrote:
Diel wrote:So let me get this straight. People who have lots of points have put in a lot of time and have won nothing. People with few or no points have put in little effort or have already won something. Where is the unfairness of this? Leaders these days get zero credit for all the effort put toward dealing with an entire group of people (or robots in recent days).


So you want people with lives (wife, kids, job, etc) to invest a 6 or 8 hour block of time with no chance of winning? Ok, that's fine, but expect people to pass. It would be different if it were 2-3 hours.

As for the items I guess we'll see. with 12 people ahead of me in points I'd guess I'd have to go on at least 10 runs before I had a shot at the blade. (assuming blade load rate is 25% and not all 12 people ahead of me also want the blade)

If I would have known the bid system for Bahamut was going to change I wouldn't have wasted points in bidding on an item for a class I don't play.



You're missing the point entirely. This kind of system removes chance from the equation. What do you think the average number of runs to obtain a particular item are under the Tiamat system? (hint: it's significantly more than what these guys are proposing because you're completely at the mercy of RNG).

Edit: I thought about what you said a bit more and realize that your concern is less that you don't have a "chance" to get an item, but that irregular attendees will be hard-pressed to have as many points as the people who show up every run and will effectively be shut out of the top-tier items. If it's only done monthly, it would be tough to get what you most want, that's for sure. But is it really a terrible thing that everyone can't get everything? Loot table looks pretty sick to me and players have historically undervalued quality items for years (see: warder cloaks, magi staves, etc).
Rahas
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Re: DKP Bidding

Postby Rahas » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:48 am

My 2 cents Brian.

Not a fan of the system, like Vooku says it might scare away low point players from spending the time causing this zone to be done even more seldom.

You are always gonna have a lot fo afk'ers these days, especially with in long zones. Most of us are old people now, we have families and other stuff keeping us from spending all that time. Administration of afk penalties could be quite some work :)

But since I agree with Gary that leading is hard (and more that that annoying with most of us bahving as morons in groups, hence why I solo most shit :P) I have always been a firm believer in the old way of the leader deciding on how they wanna do the split. As long as they are upfront with it.

So whatever you feel is the right way, I'll come along, take my afk penalties and not whine. Unless some other useless afk shit doesn't get the same penalties ;)
dem
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Re: DKP Bidding

Postby dem » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:23 pm

If nothing else this might inspire someone else to step up an lead just because they don't like the way the split is handled!
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Re: DKP Bidding

Postby Afu » Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:54 pm

i dunno if i like the DKP idea because theres not an closed auction going on and its all open in group
or the fact that i can eventually earn the shit i want after 5 runs or more.
This is a guy who never had a first round tia before 2015 aside from a portable hole.
yet did tiamat every time i could from 99-10

loot never drove me away, jerks did.
Dalar
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Re: DKP Bidding

Postby Dalar » Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:32 pm

Afu wrote:i dunno if i like the DKP idea because theres not an closed auction going on and its all open in group
or the fact that i can eventually earn the shit i want after 5 runs or more.
This is a guy who never had a first round tia before 2015 aside from a portable hole.
yet did tiamat every time i could from 99-10

loot never drove me away, jerks did.


I've thought through both scenarios and it's pretty much the same result. talk to me in game about it and I can talk you through why if you have further questions but basically if you have 11 items being bid all in one run anyone who tries to be a dick gets punished eventually in the process. Will tweak as we go. Closed auction would work too. The thing is people said i'm not trustworthy and it took me a while to realize what part of this I could rig and it's what the highest bid is which is completely stupid because I can just ask the person who is the highest bidder to speak up to anyone upon request.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
Dalar
Sojourner
Posts: 4905
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Re: DKP Bidding

Postby Dalar » Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:41 pm

Rahas wrote:My 2 cents Brian.

Not a fan of the system, like Vooku says it might scare away low point players from spending the time causing this zone to be done even more seldom.

You are always gonna have a lot fo afk'ers these days, especially with in long zones. Most of us are old people now, we have families and other stuff keeping us from spending all that time. Administration of afk penalties could be quite some work :)

But since I agree with Gary that leading is hard (and more that that annoying with most of us bahving as morons in groups, hence why I solo most shit :P) I have always been a firm believer in the old way of the leader deciding on how they wanna do the split. As long as they are upfront with it.

So whatever you feel is the right way, I'll come along, take my afk penalties and not whine. Unless some other useless afk shit doesn't get the same penalties ;)


Over time the low point people will become the high point people just like it is today. Multiple people have multiple bid styles. Some wait for the item they want. Some snipe good deals. Some try to get a balanced portfolio of items.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
Dalar
Sojourner
Posts: 4905
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Re: DKP Bidding

Postby Dalar » Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:43 pm

dem wrote:If nothing else this might inspire someone else to step up an lead just because they don't like the way the split is handled!

Exactly. Shevarash has also stated Lili's permission to lead Bahamut isn't based on time but the MUD finding all the different strategies to doing Bahamut.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
Dalar
Sojourner
Posts: 4905
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Re: DKP Bidding

Postby Dalar » Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:44 pm

Gormal wrote:
Vooku wrote:
Diel wrote:So let me get this straight. People who have lots of points have put in a lot of time and have won nothing. People with few or no points have put in little effort or have already won something. Where is the unfairness of this? Leaders these days get zero credit for all the effort put toward dealing with an entire group of people (or robots in recent days).


So you want people with lives (wife, kids, job, etc) to invest a 6 or 8 hour block of time with no chance of winning? Ok, that's fine, but expect people to pass. It would be different if it were 2-3 hours.

As for the items I guess we'll see. with 12 people ahead of me in points I'd guess I'd have to go on at least 10 runs before I had a shot at the blade. (assuming blade load rate is 25% and not all 12 people ahead of me also want the blade)

If I would have known the bid system for Bahamut was going to change I wouldn't have wasted points in bidding on an item for a class I don't play.



You're missing the point entirely. This kind of system removes chance from the equation. What do you think the average number of runs to obtain a particular item are under the Tiamat system? (hint: it's significantly more than what these guys are proposing because you're completely at the mercy of RNG).

Edit: I thought about what you said a bit more and realize that your concern is less that you don't have a "chance" to get an item, but that irregular attendees will be hard-pressed to have as many points as the people who show up every run and will effectively be shut out of the top-tier items. If it's only done monthly, it would be tough to get what you most want, that's for sure. But is it really a terrible thing that everyone can't get everything? Loot table looks pretty sick to me and players have historically undervalued quality items for years (see: warder cloaks, magi staves, etc).


Still going on warders and magi staves amongest other items :)
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
Afu
Sojourner
Posts: 83
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:58 pm

Re: DKP Bidding

Postby Afu » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:01 am

Dalar wrote:I've thought through both scenarios and it's pretty much the same result. talk to me in game about it and I can talk you through why if you have further questions but basically if you have 11 items being bid all in one run anyone who tries to be a dick gets punished eventually in the process. Will tweak as we go. Closed auction would work too. The thing is people said i'm not trustworthy and it took me a while to realize what part of this I could rig and it's what the highest bid is which is completely stupid because I can just ask the person who is the highest bidder to speak up to anyone upon request.


i've never been a fan of the closed system, lets all tell someone what we want and trust they wont let anyone
know what wasnt bid so they can snipe it. Not saying it has been done, but the possibility is there
and it's what everyone says is going on. Ive seen single bidders on every high end item after a dogpile
that shit dont occur naturally too often, but it does here.

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