"No More Zoning For Evils" issue - my OWN point of view

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
Axxsinlazzam
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Postby Axxsinlazzam » Fri Aug 30, 2002 9:43 am

I dont post on issues like this because it means NOTHING to me.
I dont post on issues like this because this is just A GAME!
Please dont try to bring in the rest of the the evil players that read this BBS, and
say "BLAH I'm not posting on, replying to or responding to something that means nothing
to me, has any truth or whatever...."

The rest of the evil choose not to post to something as insane as this topic.
A non CC OD guilded evil.

Just leave us outta this...PLEASE...

The Axx
Advisor to the Blood Raiders.

P.S
Yo Jegzed I think i've been in a few zones with ya, i dont remember if ya lead them or not.
It dont mean anything anyway. Image


P.P.S.
.
.
.
Death to all Invokers!


[This message has been edited by Axxsinlazzam (edited 08-30-2002).]
sok
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Postby sok » Fri Aug 30, 2002 11:16 am

bump
Rurga
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Postby Rurga » Fri Aug 30, 2002 3:22 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Caedym:
<B>Oh btw, Rurga isn’t a current Sigil member. He is former. As you saw from your repeating of my words, I was asking for current.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True enough. I'm not. I left to go back to goodies. But my reasoning was never because evils weren't nice enough. When I got to zoning level, freqently, as soon as I logged in i'd see "xxxx tells you 'zone'?" My first zoning trip was to CC, a very, very bash intensive zone. I hadn't zoned as a warrior in well over a year or two. But, I asked questions, I followed instructions, and I think I did pretty damn well. I proved I was a worthwhile player to zone. I didn't bitch when I didn't get handed one of the items I wanted, I went back and won it the next trip.

Proving yourself is _easy_. Be a nice guy, do your job, and don't bitch. How hard is that to accomplish? feh! I miss zoning with my warrior, but that's besides the point. There's not a damn thing wrong with the way evils are, and are organized. I don't see goodie groups doing bronze citadel.

/noob rant over



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Rurga Split Skull
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Gyrx
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Postby Gyrx » Fri Aug 30, 2002 3:53 pm

Caedym, what the hell are you trying to say man? You're obviously seeing something that we don't.

[This message has been edited by Gyrx (edited 08-30-2002).]
sok
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Postby sok » Sat Aug 31, 2002 6:47 pm

bump
Daz
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Postby Daz » Sat Aug 31, 2002 11:23 pm

5 hours and no post? I'm getting antsy here.

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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
Caedym
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Postby Caedym » Sun Sep 01, 2002 4:52 am

Lemme break it down, sorry if this seems long, but it’ll help you to see my point as clearly as possible.

You’ve a young evil.
You’re not in a guild.
You don’t get to zone with CC or OD, because for all they care, you don’t exist until you’re level 46 or higher, or in the case of shamans with gheal level 41 or higher.
You spend most of your time leveling up with other unguilded folks, or those guilds who don’t care about your class or level, but the person playing the char, like Blood Raiders have always been, and Evil Alliance & Brigand were before they disbanded.
You make some good true friends who enjoy your company, true friends because they don’t care what your class is at this point it’s just your company they like, and the game is fun for you.
You eventually make yourself into a char with some levels under you and some minor eq, mostly hand downs from those you’ve exp’d with, buying it yourself in WD, or the occasional small eq run with your exp buddies. Sometimes you get lucky tho and a guilded person or a higher level hands you something nice. How endearing of them to be so generous, they don’t even ask you to join their guild if they’re in one. They just gave you something nice. Life is good. People like you for who you are.

Now things change.

One of your close friends starts attracting the notice of an evil zoning guild, you’re happy for them. How could you not be? They are your friend. It’s good to see friends get lucky.
Your friend starts zoning a lot with the new guild and shortly after they have nice equipment dumped on them and they join this guild. You’re worried that things will change between you. Will they have time for you now? They assure you that things aren’t going to change, you’re just being silly, they’ll always be there for you, they’re your friend. You are happy.

Time goes by.

Your friend is doing well.. so well that is.. they don’t take time out to talk to you anymore, unless off course they are so bored and you happen to be in the room with them. But they are your friend, you make it a note to understand that perhaps they are very busy now, and a busy person has a lot of spam to deal with.
Days turn into weeks, weeks turn into months, and you and your friend drift apart.

A lucky day comes.

You’re asked to zone with your friends guild, and your friend is even in that group! Oh happy days these are! What could be better? You’re ready to test your meddle and show these zoners what your made of.
Then you methodically watch as you are screamed at for not knowing what to do every second of the zone, because well you’ve never done it before. What did they really expect? You’ve been doing exp groups primarily for the last 40 something levels, and how you act in an exp group is entirely different then a true zone group.
You suck it up and deal with it, and make sure not to say anything derogatory about those members in the group who did less then their jobs, or who were even worse at their jobs then you at yours. Perhaps they were having an unlucky day, and when they were new, they got this treatment too. This could just be some kind of initiation. One thing you do remember though, is your friend doesn’t stick up for you at all, instead they choose to join in on harping on you in gsay with everyone else involved. Something doesn’t feel right, and a seed is planted within you.

The split comes. You don’t know what stats the items have or what you should bid on, and most people won’t tell you, you have to ask repeatedly for stats until someone answers you. Unfortunately because you’ve been talking a lot around a split, you have accidentally developed a bad rep for someone who gripes about splits, even though that’s not what you were doing. You finally bid on something, and it’s a crap shoot because you have no idea anyways. The split happens, and the leader hands out the best items to select members, almost all are entirely within the same guild as the leader. But looking at them, you realize they for the most part put in more time and effort in the long run, and judging by their eq, they need it and deserve it more then you. You wait for your next chance. You are happy.


The next day comes, and no, unlike what a lot of these guilded people say on the BBS, they don’t ask you to zone again the next day, but they are more then happy to take any classes they currently need out of your exp group to zone with, and they quickly return them once a guilded person of the same class logs. Lucky you. No, they don’t ask you because you’ve somehow manage to develop a bad reputation (the specifics are different for each person, but regardless the fact that your friend never stuck up for you only contributed to this development. After all, if you were a solid investment, why didn’t your friend stick up for you?)

Days and weeks go by before you’re asked to zone again, and when the opportunity arrives, you jump at it. You’re lucky enough to help someone of a guild get a quest item or finish a quest to receive a new spell. That felt good. You did a good dead without even realizing it. That person is so happy, they thank you personally in a tell. Life is good.

More days or weeks go buy, and you find yourself never asked to zone unless it’s to ‘help some guilded person get a quest item or spell’, and sometimes if you’re really lucky, they don’t even tell you that’s why you’re in the group in the first place. You’ve an evil, and they are an elite evil, you should be happy to contribute to the bettering or your betters. Hey, don’t complain, or they’ll never take you zoning. You should be happy to help someone else get ahead, or I should say ‘futher ahead’ then you.

Nothing changes, this goes on for weeks and then months. You’re only being called on to help someone else. The call is never made to help you. But they must know you need help. They must know your condition, because they love to say how everyone in evils is so close knit and knows each other, so they must know? Shouldn’t they? They say they do. So why aren’t they noticing you? Where is the call to help you for once?

You don’t complain, you instead make it a note that the next zoning group you are a part of, you’re going to go above and beyond the call of duty to show how good you are.

That day comes. During the zoning, you stand out above all others for doing your job above and beyond the call of duty, supporting the leader, never giving crap, and helping assign duties. You’re not just the vice president of the group, you’re the goddam MVP and everyone knows it. You get praised in tells. Well done.

When a spank happens because of guilded folks not doing their job or being afk when something bad happened, it’s you who survived by rising to the occasion and preventing a complete spank. During the reorganization of the group, the ‘elite’ people act like children and bitch and moan. You turn a blind eye to it and continue doing your job and even taking control of a bad situation to bring things together. Because of you, the day is saved.

The split comes. No one gives a dam about what you did. They are just pissed they died, and of course want to pin it on someone. They don’t look to reward who did their job and more, they want to dump on someone. You are forgotten. You are not rewarded. You watch as the one item you wanted, which you’ve wanted for months now, goes to one of 6 other people who don’t need it, and this particular person helped to cause the spank in the first place. For the most part, only your non-guilded friends in the group notice how wrong this is and send you comfort tells, no one else gives a dam.

You’re unhappy. But lo to he who complains! Don’t do it! The worst heresy of all! Don’t even mention a sigh or a disappointment in how the split went, or it’ll be another 1-3 months before you get asked by that leader again. Shame on you! How DARE you not be happy!?!?

So you don’t. You let it slide. Life goes on. You’ll deal with it. It’s a good thing too, because you start to get asked to zone more often now. Unfortunately you keep watching the equipment go to the same group of people over and over again. You are not happy, you’re frustrated.

You get tired of the charade and decide to follow different leaders for a time. You start to learn even more zones and get a nice reputation for once as someone who knows what they are doing or that can scramble in an emergency without loosing their head.

Time goes by. You decide to give those old leaders another spin. It’s been a while now, and unfortunately a lot of people in that group now have alternative characters, even multiple ones. You remember how the leader always did handouts to those folks who were in most need of the equipment. You look at everyone in the group who runs in it regularly, and see that the most needed person is pretty much.. well you. Hey things look good for me. I might get something. Life is good. You also notice how much better your performance is on a regular basis then some of your old friends and wonder why you haven’t been approached for guild membership. You are an excellent player after all. Aren’t you?

The split comes. The leader now decides to lotto everything, they never did this before. Remember? It was always handouts based on group performance and need. You systematically watch as every good item goes to people who don’t need for their current character, and in the worst instances, they just want it for an alternate character they haven’t even rolled up yet. Oh but they plan on it.. some day.

This keeps happening to you. You start to notice other things. Like.. why won’t said guild help me get this quest spell? You ask them. They tell you, “you don’t need that, it’s a waste of time”, but.. you notice.. everyone of that class in THEIR guild has that spell. Why do they need it and you don’t? Or they tell you how you need to get this spell now to be of any use in a zone, but unfortunately you can’t complete that quest without a zone group, and you can’t get into a zone group because you don’t have that spell. It doesn’t matter that they are doing the zone you need a quest item from. You can’t get the spell without already having the spell.

You start to think they say you don’t need it because only players in their guild need it?

Perhaps only players in their guild need that or certain equipment too?

Remember that seed? Oh it’s blossoming now baby. Boy is it ever.

Your frustration screams. If your situation doesn’t improve, you’re going to shoot someone. Things have to get better. You start asking for help from your old true friends, the guilded ones, but they never have time for you, and unfortunately they’ll drop anything to go zone with one of their guild leaders. You’re just not a priority enough for them. Eq for them or their second or third alt is ten times more important then you. Yeesh. Why’d you even bother to ask in the first place? Duh. Oh but they love to make assurances to you, but unfortunately they never cash it in. If someone pledges to do something for you, and then never does it, isn’t that the same as a lie? Hell, remember all those people you helped get those quest spells? They don’t even remember your name now.

How precious of them to be so completely different now and forget about that person who helped them get where they are today in the first place? It takes a true friend to step on you and then brag about how great they are, and subsequently better then you, on the BBS and to your face. You’re annoyance and frustration turns to anger. The game is no longer fun for you. Why should you even bother to log?

You try a different path.

You roll a goodie. From the first 5 mins of playing a high-levels drop in to say hi and offer any assistance. You’re amazed at how nice they are, especially after being ignored by high-levels until your 40’s as an evil. You start playing your new goodie more and more and find more and more nice people to hang out with. This is so much easier because of the immensely larger player base as compared to before. You’re old evil friends start wondering where you are. You tell them, “hey, come swim over here, water is great, and no sharks to kill ya!”

Months go by, you’re having a blast playing a goodie now, you’ve even made yourself into a reputable character with some reputable friends. You can even zone pretty much whenever you want. Sure there are the occasional snafu’s and jackasses, but all in all, life is good again.

You see a post on a board from some of those ‘elite’ evil players, the ones when you invested time into them it never paid off in anything but a headache. They are grumbling now because no one is around to zone with and don’t understand where everyone want. They can’t get those last 3-6 items to make their char in to eq perfection. Oh how sad for them. You and your former evil friends laugh at the matter.


Let them simmer in their own juices. Hey, they made their bed. Let em sleep in it.


You take some time out from time to time to log your evil char and chat with some old evil friends who are still grinding it away as an evil. Frustrated as usual. It appears that some of the evil elite leaders are threatening to ignore them as their alts, but they only rolled those alts in the first place because those leaders wanted more of that class. Your poor friends. You know the crap they’re going thru. Some other people wonder where you’ve been. What’s funny is they didn’t give two shits about you when you were around every day.
Some ask why you don’t play so much anymore or zone with evils now. Well, why should you help people, who don’t care about you, just to eq their alts?

FUNK DAT!!

While you’re on with your evil some frustrated goodie sends you a tell asking what it’s like to be an evil, they are considering rolling one. You tell them the truth. They cringe. You then tell them about your goodie and log em on. You two group and eventually welcome them into your goodie circle of friends. You picked up a new friend to mud with. Life is great. You ask yourself why on earth did you ever bother rolling an evil in the first place?


-------------

I watch this happen time and time again, and I’m more then happy to add any former evils into my groups/circle of friends. Keep it up guys, you’re only giving me more people to zone with and share my time with. I just thought you might want a clue to your current dilemma since you asked.

Caedym Shadowhock –some dude working for Oghma


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Daz
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Postby Daz » Sun Sep 01, 2002 5:09 am

Well, it sounds like you had a rough time. I am glad, though, that you are happy now - I'm not one of anything on the good side, but I'm always happy to help you out. The game is just a game for me now, as it has not been in some time. I've got eq, time, and advice to give to those who want it. It sounds like you could help people, too.

Don't spend too much time being upset, and when it comes to good vs. evil . . . well, I don't trouble myself over it. There are times when my evil is fun, and times when my goodie is fun. However, for you, like all of us - there is a place where you fit in, and are happy. That place may not be the same for everyone, but at least you found yours.

Never forget that its a game, and everyone is a person here, no matter how much we may bitch, whine, or annoy you. The name is daz - if you ever need a hand getting something for one of your characters, ask. I even have a couple people who call me friends who would prolly help, too. I have only ever turned down one request for help (time permitting) and I felt like shit for doing it.

Peace man, and thanks for taking the time to share, some of us are really glad to read it.

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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
Caedym
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Postby Caedym » Sun Sep 01, 2002 5:14 am

I also would like to respond to the comment of - It's just that time of year, player ranks always dwindle.

If this were true, then why hasn't the goodie ranks tanken a nose dive like the evils?




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Tasan
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Postby Tasan » Sun Sep 01, 2002 6:20 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Caedym:
<B>
If this were true, then why hasn't the goodie ranks tanken a nose dive like the evils?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, goodie #'s have dwindled in terms of regular players. However they are being replaced by frustrated evils who jump sides knowing they can group at least.

Personally, I look at your long-winded story of not making it as an evil and I laugh. For someone who wants to belong so badly to sit idly by, and wait for things to come to them and then whines/bitches about how it never comes, I simply cannot stop from laughing.

If you don't like the way something is being done, work to change it. I don't see any part in there about you attempting to lead something, even disasterously. I see you asking for help w/ a spell, but did you bother to research it for yourself first?

Personally, I get tired of people wanting help w/ XXX quest, or asking me about how to get a quest spell. There are plenty of people here who get things done on their own. For those that rely on other people to get things done, and sit back and reap the benefits, yeah you are probably going to miss out on some things. I'm not denying that evil mentality is a little different, but that doesn't mean it has to become your mentality as well.

Maybe you are just better off being a goodie. I honestly think there are people who wouldn't do well on the other side. Plain and simple.

Most of the evil players I talk to regularly are extremely cordial and helpful. Granted I'm not asking most of them for quest info, or to take a little alt of mine w/ them somewhere, so perhaps I'm missing out on something.

I think your story is just that, yours. If not, let a bunch of other people post theirs as well. Otherwise I'd say "tough luck".

Twinshadow

[This message has been edited by Tasan (edited 09-01-2002).]
Ambar
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Postby Ambar » Sun Sep 01, 2002 6:27 am

damn dude they make drugs for that shit Image



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Ambar -= Beloved Matron =- Crimson Coalition
Caedym
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Postby Caedym » Sun Sep 01, 2002 7:36 am

Tasan,

This wasn’t ‘my story’ in the way you are putting it. This was a conglomeration of various happenings I piled together, from friends, others, and some personal, in an attempt to explain my earlier point. I was asked as much. So I provided it. Furthermore, that explanation was in no way an attempt to cover every single occurrence that has happened or is currently happening, but instead to provide a glimpse at the kind of feelings and things some evils, and evils turned goodie, have gone/going through as expressed and witnessed by myself and friends. Some did less then I described, and some have done far more. I sought to average it out as best I could.

For your information, most the people who had these problems with their quests or equipment, it usually came down to a matter of needing a group support that they couldn’t get. Primarily from the ‘elite’ players. It seems that the simple return of favors were not being returned. It was not a situation of them sitting on their asses at dk fountain waiting for a hand out. Most of these people you wouldn’t know how bad it is for them unless you pry.

The post was in no way intended to be an attack on current evils. It was an explanation of my point, not a flame. If you ask for something, you can’t get mad when you get it. Since I have nothing to loose in the evil community now, I can afford to be bluntly honest in my statements. I doubt anyone feeling similar to the way I posted, would feel their situation would improve by grumbling about it or substantiating my claims.

Call it a post for those who cannot or shouldn’t post.

My explanation was an attempt to provide a little help to those players who are still too stubborn to give up on their evils, but don’t want to make waves in evils and make their situations even worse, not that for some it could get much worse.

Daz, I thank you for your words. I have been quite happy for some time, I’m just saddened for those few friends, and those I don’t know yet, who still stay behind feeling some aspects of what I posted. My intentions are hopeful that their situation might improve. There is always room for improvement isn’t there?

I’d just like to see some friends happy again, instead of them becoming progressively more and more miserable. If they don’t want to give up on their evils, then maybe I can do something to help their situation.

What are true friends for?

Caedym Shadowhock –some dude working for Oghma


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Teyaha
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Postby Teyaha » Sun Sep 01, 2002 8:37 am

wow that sounds familiar caed.

dont worry though, no one will believe any of what you just typed.
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Sun Sep 01, 2002 8:51 am

Wow, what a lame ass rant from someone who doesn't even play here anymore.

Just last night we did jot and there were 3 low level people aboard, the lowest of whom was level 36 I believe. Because nobody needed anything, they were handed the ogrehides, the torque, the boots, the mask, the belt and probably other stuff I forgot. When was the last time that happened in goodieville? Oh right, it doesn't, since everything is diced for someone's tenth alt.

Even to people who have never zoned yet, I've given away flamberges, thryms, FG boots, pbone shields, turtle eyepatches, blue addie bracers, red dragon armors etc. When was the last time you did? Poof, there goes your myth of having to earn everything yourself because high level evils won't give you anything.

On the topic of guilded people causing spanks and noobs being blamed even if they did a perfect job, that's such bullshit. You've probably never zoned with evils and suck that out of your thumb because whoever fucked up gets the blame even if it's someone in my own guild.

Lastly, about evils having to level themselves because high levelers won't xp with them - what do YOU think I do as a level 50? XP? Wrong, I quest and do other stuff. If I happen to be in DK I'll take people for a spin around town for 10 minutes but that's it. Because there are few people <40, it's harder to XP. That doesn't mean that people who have already done their XP should still do it day in day out just so these people can xp too.

I've seen dozens upon dozens of people who just leave when they hit 45 and ALL the time invested in them is lost, all eq, all spell quests. Hell I can count 15 clerics with ress and shamans with gheal who don't show up anymore so excuse me for not coming to lick every level 40's boots to want to help them with their spell quests. If you want help with a quest fight, fine I'll help, but don't expect me to go out of my way to do things on my own and then give them to you.

I've leveled a goodie to 42, and I couldn't even get people to press my damn corpse after zones so now he's back at 40. There's your goodie 'love' for you. All I ever got there was a continuous light.

Awaiting your imaginary answer, Cherzra.
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Postby Disoputlip » Sun Sep 01, 2002 10:24 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Caedym:
<B>Lemme break it down, sorry if this seems long, but it’ll help you to see my point as clearly as possible.

Blah Blah Blah Blag (I had to edit it away, scroll up and read it.)</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are totally right!!! As a cleric I'm ofcource welcomed into groups, but the tells you get from highlvls in WD about help are not at all found among evils. Also, many evil leaders don't realize that some players are clueless when it comes to zoning. Some leaders however knows this and say things others take for granted. (could be something as tog wimp 0 before zonage) I have never zoned with goodies, but without mentioning names then I will say that there are many leaders that simply don't consider that info that seem obvious to old-timers aint to new players.

Still, Evils just totally rock. And I don't think I would change. (Started as goodie and made lvl20)

/Disoputlip
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Postby Baikalisan » Sun Sep 01, 2002 2:02 pm

Ok Caedym, i gave you the benifit of the doubt, and i read you post in full. I am a level 50 Duergar Cleric and I am guilded with Orbdrin D'oloth. I am a saught after class, very rarely do i lack for a group if i am interested in zoning. Do you know why I am asked to group before somebody elses level 46 cleric alt would be asked to group? Because people, evil leaders and non-leaders alike, know that i can play my character.. They know that i know what mobs to silence, and just how far down i can let that tank get before i need to cast a full heal on him so that i dont waste them in a critical situation. That comes from playing my character for 40 levels in little bullshit dk xp groups or ship or smoke plane or buffalos or anything else that i could get people to kill. I have learned my boundaries, i know what each of my spells does and in which situations to apply them. If i was to take a level 35 cleric to a zone do you think they are going to know their job as well as i do? 9 chances out of 10 they are not. Therefore as a leader they have to make the choice to take a person who knows what they are doing over a person who _might_ know what they are doing. Blame them, kick them, throw stones at them and curse their names in posts and in the mud all you like. As a leader, it is their job to make sure the group is taken care of, and a responsible leader only takes the best the mud has to offer at the time, if that happens to be members of their guild, so be it, if it happens to be a level 36 warrior that gets sucked out of your xp group then so be it.

I cannot speak for CC because i am not a member, but i can speak for OD as a whole and tell you that i have seen them take people and get them levels and spell quests and put them all in level 50 gear and guild them just to watch them quit, or they roll an alt and flat out refuse to play their guilded character. After a while it gets old, you stop helping the lowbies as much, you give them gear and help them along the way but you just cant invest hours, weeks, months of your time to help somebody and have Zero return EVERY time. It breaks you down and you become indifferent to the plight of the little guy. It happens, on the goodie side, as well as the evil side. Evils notice people leaving more because we have a smaller player base than the goodies, how its always been and most likely always will be. the way it is sposed to be...

You say this story is not entirly about you, but several people who you have met in your circle of friends.. Well to you all i say this....

Im glad you've found a new home on the Good side of the mud. Im glad you have eq, and im glad you have ppl to zone with whenever you feel the urge. What i am not glad about, however, is that you have singled out certain guilds and leaders to be your whipping boys when you have never been a part of their guilds or their steady zone groups, you said yourself you group with them once or twice in a 3-5 month period and expect to be brought into their close circle of friends and ppl they play with on a daily basis and be welcomed as if you have been their your entire life.. It doesnt work that way, even on the goodie side of the fence it does not work that way. I hate to say it because im sure there are ppl who will find a way to twist my words, but you have to earn your way into the Big zone groups. You have to go to all the little places and learn how to play your character and show the leaders and the future leaders that you know what your doing continuously, not just once in a while you happen to have a good day and remembered to get that rescue off. You've got to prove yourself. Sometimes it takes players years to develope as a character, some players can do it b4 they hit level 20.
Fact is fact tho, i will not take somebody who is level 30-45 and questionable as to their skill before i take somebody 46-50 who has played with me b4 and i know has a good knowledge of whats going on.

ok im tired of writing tho i could go on for several more pages on this topic alone...

flame me as you will

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Baikalisan Terrorforge- Valsharess Elg'Caress - Orbdrin D'oloth
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Postby Dezzex » Sun Sep 01, 2002 2:57 pm

Funny post Image Either that was a joke or some twisted version of a one-sided story.
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Postby Todrael » Sun Sep 01, 2002 3:36 pm

"You don’t get to zone with CC or OD, because for all they care, you don’t exist until you’re level 46 or higher."

We constantly invite anyone higher than level 36 to zone. Although you won't go to bronze citadel with us, you will be able to check jot grid, do ic vault, or other small zones. This is especially true during the day. We will take whatever we can get.

"Sometimes you get lucky tho and a guilded person or a higher level hands you something nice. How endearing of them to be so generous, they don’t even ask you to join their guild if they’re in one."

Although the words are happy, this has a decidedly bitter tone.

"Then you methodically watch as you are screamed at for not knowing what to do every second of the zone, because well you’ve never done it before."

Although we take everyone we can get, that doesn't mean we should put up with your mistakes that get us killed. If you get me killed, I will let you know about it, and how to avoid it in the future. If you don't like getting yelled at, ask someone how to do the zone. Did you even ask your friend, "What do I do this fight?"

"You don’t know what stats the items have or what you should bid on, and most people won’t tell you, you have to ask repeatedly for stats until someone answers you."

Should have asked me. Always willing to help. Yeah, a lot of the time the split goes through without even everyone knowing what's there. Splits on the evil side have always been different. Items aren't assigned monetary/trade value, and so aren't as valuable to every member of the group.

"Unfortunately because you’ve been talking a lot around a split, you have accidentally developed a bad rep for someone who gripes about splits, even though that’s not what you were doing."

Wow, really? And all you were talking about were asking for item stats? I'm sure it was all "Could someone please tell me what <x> does? I've never done this before.."... hmm. Are you sure it wasn't "Why isn't someone telling me the stats?" Or even worse, "If I had known the stats, I would have bid on it." There are hundreds of ways to "talk during a split." Yes, some of them will make people not like you.

"The split happens, and the leader hands out the best items to select members, almost all are entirely within the same guild as the leader."

I've been to Jot over 130 times, literally. Interestingly, I've actually had people upset with me for bidding on and winning the ogrehides. Are there other people that can use this item? Yes. Can I use this item? Yes. Who defines the need for that item? How many times must I go to Jot before I'm allowed a shot at it along with the newbies who don't have one? Because there's always a newbie that doesn't have one. We're constantly letting new people in on the upper zoning scheme, and it shows in the splits.

"The next day comes, and no, unlike what a lot of these guilded people say on the BBS, they don’t ask you to zone again the next day, but they are more then happy to take any classes they currently need out of your exp group to zone with, and they quickly return them once a guilded person of the same class logs."

Bitter, bitter, bitter. No, every day you will not get to zone. Guess what? I don't either. There are even groups I'm not invited to, despite being the most zoned evil. Just because you're on doesn't mean you'll zone. And, from my observations, it's very rare to kick people out of a group. Very rare indeed. I'm rather sure that usually the people you're talking about leave the group because they want to get back to exping.

"Nothing changes, this goes on for weeks and then months."

So at the beginning of all this, you were just barely zoning level. In these "months", did you actually gain any levels?

"You should be happy to help someone else get ahead, or I should say ‘futher ahead’ then you."

You should be happy that you're helping other people, period. I've spent hundreds of hours over nhc and through tells helping people with all sorts of mundane problems, constantly at the ready to help. That's the kind of person I am. I enjoy doing it. If you don't enjoy doing what you're doing, do something else.

"They must know your condition, because they love to say how everyone in evils is so close knit and knows each other, so they must know?"

We do not read minds. Unfortunately, that myth about Illithids is actually in a Fantasy world. If you need help, ask the leaders for groups. If you don't know who the leaders are, ask someone else who the leaders are, so you can ask the leaders for groups. If you don't get in a group, don't be surprised it's because you're either A) Anon. B) Low level. C) Bad rep. D) Unknown. Unknown is a big one. You know how you get known? Talking with people, being around people. If you stay on ship 24/7, or even if you just wander around DK, you will not get to know people. Close knit organizations are like that too. Just because the organization is close doesn't mean an outcast put into their midst will suddenly become an extrovert.

"That day comes."

And here we were all waiting with baited breathe, thinking you would never zone again..

"Because of you, the day is saved."

Good job.

"The split comes. No one gives a dam about what you did. ... You are not rewarded."

Whiner.

"or it’ll be another 1-3 months before you get asked by that leader again."

According to your earlier information, it's going to be this anyways, right? Interestingly, I know people that constantly whine about splits that get groups even in spite of it. It's because we need people to zone.

"Unfortunately you keep watching the equipment go to the same group of people over and over again. You are not happy, you’re frustrated."

I can sympathize with this. I wonder how many times I did a zone before I got an item I really wanted.. it seems usually in the 9+ range. This is totally up to your playtime, and not the real life time you spend doing things. You play more, you zone more, you get more items. Fact of life. You don't get it in 5 months? How many times did you do that zone in those 5 months? How many times did you mention that zone when the group was trying to decide what to do?

"You get tired of the charade and decide to follow different leaders for a time."

You know how many leaders there are on the evil side. Tons! Tons and tons. But only one group at a time. In all the history of the evil races, only twice have we done two zones simultaneously. Whoever gets to be leader that day will be the only leader.

"and wonder why you haven’t been approached for guild membership."

Crimson Coalition only recruits classes, races, and players that further our goals or that have long standing close relationships with members of the guild. I can just imagine the stuff you would be saying (not in a public forum of course) back in Toril when some guilds were 10 times more restrictive...

"and in the worst instances, they just want it for an alternate character they haven’t even rolled up yet. Oh but they plan on it.. some day."

Since this is directly directed at me, I'd like to go over this. My rogue, which has yet to be rolled, is one of the best equipped rogues in the game. I have many near-unique items that my rogue would be wearing. This is how I stay interested in the game. This is how I justify spending hours and hours every day helping every group do things that do not benefit me in any way.

I'm a nice guy, but even nice guys don't go through life without having some kind of reward once in a while. How many times did I bid on diamondine before I got one? 9 times. How many times did I, specifically, save the group at Quturac during those runs? 3 times. I figure I earned it. Were others upset? Absolutely. Especially the level 50 rogue in the group that didn't have one. I even thought about giving it to him. But really, it's mine. Am I greedy? Everyone is, to an extent. Others can extoll the virtues of charity, but that only goes so far. Even they demand their rightful compensation. (see above post by Caedym).

"This keeps happening to you."

How could it keep happening to you if you don't keep zoning? Did our focus of unhappiness suddenly change? You're no longer happy just to go zoning. You've created a whole new list of problems so you can have something to complain about.

"You can’t get the spell without already having the spell."

Blatant lie.

"Remember that seed? Oh it’s blossoming now baby. Boy is it ever."

Only because you feed it.

"If your situation doesn’t improve, you’re going to shoot someone."

I would suggest counseling instead.

"This is so much easier because of the immensely larger player base as compared to before."

This is the largest difference between evils and goodies. Player base. Cherzra has taken many evil newbies under his wing, as have many other evils. If the same %age do that on the goodie side, you'll have a lot more people paying attention to the newbies. Good for you. But it's still the same %age of people. There's also a hugely greater number of assholes, just because of the numbers, but you won't have to deal with them as much. Just a matter of perception.

"You and your former evil friends laugh at the matter."

Thanks. That makes me feel better.

"Well, why should you help people, who don’t care about you, just to eq their alts?"

Because it's fun. Because it's not about the reward. I could list a million reasons here, but you've already made up your mind. And your question is flawed. You added 'who don't care about you, just to eq their alts?' to the end. Instant judgement of every person you meet is pretty silly, don't you think? Especially when you have an obvious prejudice.

"You tell them the truth."

Your convoluted, warped truth.

"I just thought you might want a clue to your current dilemma since you asked."

Unfortunately, I see nothing here that will allow me to change myself to be a better person. I see a lot of bitter, unhappy statements coming from a disaffected member of a community who didn't like those around him. I do see some things that others can change. But that's part of the evil community, for me, accepting other's flaws. We know people screw up, even the high level elite players. We see it every day. And yes, we bitch at the elite players too. Just yesterday a lot of people were yelling at Jaznolg for a huge mess he made. But people know Jaznolg. He still gets to zone, even though he screwed up. And he still gets items. Everyone does.

I'm glad you found a part of the game that you enjoy. Despite the tone of the majority of this post, I'm always glad when someone finds the joy in Sojourn. Keep playing. It doesn't matter where you do it, evil or good. Just have fun.

More to come, noticed you posted another long one.

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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
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Postby Rurga » Sun Sep 01, 2002 3:37 pm

All I can say is damn. He must be right. When I was playing my warrior, I only got handed an ebony longsword, and two gemstones one day by someone when I was more or less idling. Damn you stingy evils. I didn't even get to zone, and lose my bid/hand out on them! Damn you all!

And as Tod said in his above post, about did you even ask your friend about this zone? It's a very valid question. My first trip to CC, I was talking with him alot, asking question after question about CC as a basher, because well i've never done it as a warrior of any sort, so I really had no perspective on it. Did I annoy him with my questions? At some points, probably. Did he answer every single damn one, and help me do the zone near flawlessly as a basher? Damn right he did. Just fugging ask questions, people _WILL_ answer them. Sheesh.

And for the record. Took me 2 times to do CC and win a fangs belt, and once doing clouds to win a combat amulet. Yeah. Damn those shafting evils. Me winning things I actually needed. When will it end?

I'm sorry, that's just funny. I don't doubt some people feel that way, but evils can be just as nice, if not nicer than goodies. You don't see evils posting for _trades_ on the for sale board in waterdeep. It really should be renamed. (And yes, I know some evils do, but not NEARLY as much as goodies do it.)

Whine, bitch, moan. Cry me a river.

[Edited to add a couple points with Tod's new post]
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Rurga Split Skull
http://members.rogers.com/zerolove/nicetallglass.jpg

[This message has been edited by Rurga (edited 09-01-2002).]
Todrael
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Postby Todrael » Sun Sep 01, 2002 3:45 pm

"For your information, most the people who had these problems with their quests or equipment, it usually came down to a matter of needing a group support that they couldn’t get."

So very sadly true. There's only one group at a time, and often zero groups, on the evil side. That's a function of the player base. That's the defining feature of goodie versus evil, player base, and all the problems and differences that come with it. Huge differences. Like not putting together the only group that's going to form that day so someone who doesn't like you can get a spell quest that they think they deserve because they've "put in all their time equipping your 15th alt without so much as a pat on the back".

"It was an explanation of my point, not a flame."

As I said, most of what I saw that needed changing for the community was in your perception alone.

"Call it a post for those who cannot or shouldn’t post."

How delusionally easy to justify yourself with hordes of invisible backers.

"There is always room for improvement isn’t there?"

Absolutely, in everyone and every thing.

"I’d just like to see some friends happy again, instead of them becoming progressively more and more miserable."

I agree completely, and think this a noble goal. I do not think you went about it in a constructive fashion though, and hope that perhaps you can, in the future, provide more information on how to fix the problem instead of expounding on how the problem warped you for life.

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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
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Postby Gormal » Sun Sep 01, 2002 6:09 pm

Blood and Ale > shiny trinkets

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Gormal Stoneforge -Hammerstrike-

"Forward Mithrilguard!"
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Postby rachaz » Sun Sep 01, 2002 10:34 pm

I just want people reading this post to know that some people do go from goodies to evils and enjoy it. If you want to know the REAL deal, try looking at the positive side and talking to Ambar or myself. The success stories are as happy as poor Caedym and Teyaha's stories are sad Image

Last point I wanted to make was that Caedym was a warrior on the evil side. Goodies may not know many of the evil warriors but if the following people were online who would you choose? Touk, Dhurn, Folur, Daalgar or Mystery Level 44 warrior.
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Postby Gyrx » Tue Sep 03, 2002 12:37 am

I fully agree with Todrael, but I'd like to add one thing..


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Caedym:
Your friend is doing well.. so well that is.. they don’t take time out to talk to you anymore, unless off course they are so bored and you happen to be in the room with them.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If they act like this then they were never really your friend in the first place. I've seen many cases where a certain friend gets big, and he helps is friend catch up to him.
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Postby Yasden » Wed Sep 04, 2002 1:10 am

Play an evil to 40th and stay 40th for a week. If you don't get into at least 1 group I will give you 5kp.

This subject is old and needs to die. People are spouting off opinions, not facts, and it's the facts that need to be shown.

I am in OD myself, and I have donated 90% of all the plat I have ever earned to my guild. I give eq away all the time to people who need. In fact, the person who started this thread got eq from me to get him back on his feet. If you are ever in a zone and need something that most of the rest of us have, chances are very very high that you will get it.

I wish the goodies who keep saying this about the evils would put their money where their mouth is and try it instead of just dissing it. Maybe you have already, you obviously didn't try hard enough. I've been playing evil for over 7 years now and I've been to hell and back.

So, you wanna see what being evil is like? Roll a character and try it.

Deathmagnet, aka Targsk
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Postby Daz » Wed Sep 04, 2002 1:16 am

Personally, I gave up being a goodie and started playing full time evil, and I'm loving it. True, its posting on the BBS that pisses people off at me, but the goodside has tendencies of being unfriendly. With DK experience, getting into the 30's was easy, and doesn't seem to be slowing down. God bless finally being able to solo things! :P

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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
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Postby Malacar » Wed Sep 04, 2002 4:50 am

Contemplating switching myself Daz.

Thinking it over really hard first. Image

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Malacar - omg ymir!
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Postby Zoldren » Wed Sep 04, 2002 1:18 pm

ack goodie invasion of dk :P

hey i solod uagr to 40, can i have 5k plat :P

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Cap'n Touk

Ah the never ending good / evil debate has provided endless amusement for us all has it not? Both sides have a different mentality, evils appear to me as a closer nit group of people who expect a higher standard of play out of each other. Goodies are a broader group of people that cross group frequently and to me appear more easy going.
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Postby Rausrh » Wed Sep 04, 2002 3:14 pm

Evils Rule! Goodies drool!


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Rausrh licks you.
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Postby turg » Wed Sep 04, 2002 6:07 pm

to salen about your having to prove yourself.....

Ive been evil and good on toril and sojourn for about 9-10yrs or so.....when i played evil i had to prove myself because people didnt want me to be some idiot who came over to evils to get eq that was more difficult for goodies to get. If fact, over the history, without naming names, many goodies have come over for that very reason. That alone is enough for me to ask that they prove themself to me anyhow....

Nuff Said

Turg- Prove it to me!

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Postby Daz » Wed Sep 04, 2002 6:10 pm

and some of us came over without giving a rats' ass about eq :P

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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
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Postby Teyaha » Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:02 pm

been a week. you owe me 5k targsk Image

i'll be nice. 2k will be good heh
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Postby sok » Wed Sep 04, 2002 10:14 pm

caedym makes some good points. i believe there was/are some dissing of evils. i think there are some idea earlier on where old school evils diss newer evils; however, i think things are changing.

at the same time cherzra/todrael has good point too. i was given ton of eq when i made edak. they were cheap stuff but back when mud was up only 1 month, it was cool. i saw cherzra, i go hey wats up, this sok, he looks at me and give me stuff. blung, turg, cherzra, and # of others running 15 man ship xp group, was very funny.

personally, when i lead stuff i try to be non-biase cuz i believe folks time are the same regardless. however i know that some zone become easier w/ bigger folks.

i dong see this yelling when mistake happen. i feel neglected. someone yell at me. i think folks are afraid to yell at cleric. they yell at cleric, cleric monitor get lag and it locks up and unable to heal, but somehow the dang recall macro got struck which mean i was in an endless cycle of recalls.

you know after re-reading all that i have type, i believe targsk is right. it's pointless and touk is right that the battle of good vs evil is pointless. so i guess i'm just typing cuz i'm at work bored and wishing i could mud from work. oh ... i guess the point of my whole post is basically one long winded BUMP
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Postby Cruk » Sat Sep 07, 2002 4:44 pm

I hope I can add some constructive comments to this thread. I play a level 48 troll warrior and have been playing Sojourn3 regularly since the start of this year(ptime 20 days). I am probably now looking on my third evil guild(seems like everyone in my guild stopped playing or made another guild in the 2 weeks I went on holidays).

Firstly - only one main zoning group of CC/OD and Blood Raiders(Turxx is Jaznolg's roomie).

Secondly - because of low playerbase difficuly to start alternative zoning group and fact that the vast majority of the experienced players are members of the first group.

Thirdly - lotta my friends/former guildies quit or gone goodie cause they "feel" they get screwed over in splits/can't get zone group cause there's only one zone group and this is usually led by member of CC/OD.(understandable cause i would prefer to help my guildie than non-guildie).

Fourthly - I miss em lots, but they won't come back.

This pertains to evils 40-50(guilded and non-guilded) I know who were my friends and left.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is because of the lack of choice of zone groups, ppl can't pick which leader they would like to lead them, F*ck someone off and then group with a different group more suited to their pesonality style. And that people will always be loyal to their guildies before all others (which is understandable and expected).

Cruk(ex- Evil Alliance, and currently of guild formerly know as The Sigil).

Note - I did think about this post and discuss it(winks at someone with a bootilicous ASS) before hand.


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No I am not Crukk from Exile. He now plays a girly hooman palydork :P
apprentice
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Postby apprentice » Sat Sep 07, 2002 4:57 pm

Leading yer own groups is an option. yes if you sit around all day waitign to consent, yer bound to get the leftovers when someone else leads the group and gives prime meat to his guildies. There were plenty of evils but the problem is they never do aything except follow and then get mad when they dont get the basilisk leggings on there first trip. OD CC evils seen enuff ppl come and go so that they not giving that kinda stuff out to new ppl anymore.
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Postby Cruk » Sat Sep 07, 2002 5:12 pm

I will try to post something constructive here since it is my friends/ex-guildies that keep leaving or joining goodies. I have been playing a troll warrior since the start of the year and am at level 48 now with 20 days playtime. I am now probably looking for my third guild( the members of my current guild seemed to have either left or started another guild in the 2 weeks i was on holidays).

1. There is one main evil zoning group comprised of cc/od(who are very close) and I would add blood raiders(Turxx is Jaznolg's roomate I believe - God know what they get up to :P)

2. The leader of nearly all zone groups is a member of cc/od or their alt.

3. It is very difficult to start up an alternative zone group due to low playerbase and majority of regular experienced players are in cc/od/br.

4. Loyalty is important and expected in a guild. A lot of high level evils i know/knew have left/gone goodie as they "feel" they get screwed over in bids/can't get into a zone group(20 does not fit into 15).

5. I miss em lots, but they won't come back

6. You need an alternative group so that ppl can learn how to zone/lead zones and may be better suited to the personality style of one group than another.

I guess the main point is that because the majority of zone groups are led by players from a certain group, that they will always look after their own members first(that is expected). Also that it is difficult to form any alternative group due to low evil pbase and that it takes a while to create/learn a zoneable character if your just starting out.

These are my observations from when I keep asking ppl why they leave evils.

Cruk

Note - I did think about my post and discussed it with ppl beforehand(winks at someone with a bootilicious ASS).



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No I am not Crukk from Exile. He now plays a girly hooman palydork :P
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Postby Cruk » Sat Sep 07, 2002 5:15 pm

I think i double posted?

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No I am not Crukk from Exile. He now plays a girly hooman palydork :P
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Postby Blung » Sat Sep 07, 2002 6:47 pm

This post getting old.

Did we forget that CC and OD are the root of all Evil. Of course they are tight, they were there when S3 started.

From all posts I read so far, it basicly the new evils or goodie transition into evil trying to fit in having a hard time doing so.

<I>If Turg were a bouncer at a popular club, and you are trying to get in. He ask you, "What do you have?" And your answer is I know Sok. Do you think he will let you in?
My answer would be, "Don't make me sit on you!" Image</I>


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Blung take no prisoner.
Hamibugan Sinweaver
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Postby Hamibugan Sinweaver » Sat Sep 07, 2002 10:15 pm

Would a request for all of us to put on pink dresses and follow Zoldren to !cr deaths be irrelevant in this thread?

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That is all. Peace.
Hami

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