PEOPLE WHINING about Good versus Evil race

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
Blung
Sojourner
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 6:01 am
Location: San Diego, CA,

PEOPLE WHINING about Good versus Evil race

Postby Blung » Wed Feb 07, 2001 5:29 pm

Sojourn III haven't started yet and I have read many posts bitching/whining/complaining about evils. It's amaze me that most of the people that bitch/moan/whine are the people that switch between good and evil just for zone group to twin eq. I recalled when Katheli & Roktar switch to evil. They lead zone almost everyday. All of a sudden the whole mud seem to switch to evil alone with them. So who the twinkie? If you haven't play evil when the mud start fresh, dont even try to voice your opinion. 99% of the people that bitch about evils being powerful never taste the harsh condition that started out as evil. Most of u play evil after the first few made it to L30 or so and ask them for help (exp: help power level) or switch eq over from goodie to get an easy start. Tired of seeing Goodie whine and bitch about evil or their class sux. If you dont like your class or race switch. I'm positive the god do their best to balance the mud. I'm pretty sure they are sick of the negative whining about this and that. Its not like Sojourn just created over night.
Brugg
Sojourner
Posts: 189
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Anniston, Alabama, USA
Contact:

Postby Brugg » Wed Feb 07, 2001 7:19 pm

Well said Blung you grammatically challenged Ogre you!
Bibbe
Sojourner
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Örebro
Contact:

Postby Bibbe » Thu Feb 08, 2001 10:21 pm

I've played evil from the start 2 wipes now ..
And i still think Evils are too easy to play, consicering they should have harsh life, as a challange to thoose who gets bored.
Bibbe
Sojourner
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Örebro
Contact:

Postby Bibbe » Fri Feb 09, 2001 8:21 pm

Jesus my gramma and spelling is the proof i've been troll for too long ... bleah : )
Brugg
Sojourner
Posts: 189
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Anniston, Alabama, USA
Contact:

Postby Brugg » Fri Feb 09, 2001 10:14 pm

well Bibbe i think you are wrong. Its not easy when everyone is at the ground floor, no where near as easy as the good races have it. Personally i love the fact that its harder


p.s. who were you on the evil side bibbe?
Waelos
Sojourner
Posts: 499
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Postby Waelos » Fri Feb 09, 2001 11:15 pm

I would take a serious look at how 'easy' it is for the elves, on the 'goodie' side. Especially from a wipe, and especially after those lvl 15 agressive monsters started wandering the road right outside the home town. Not to mention the agressive wolves along the paths to Drulak, KV, SG and those pesky rats! Elves do not get huge strength, innate invisibility, psionic powers, or any other significant innate, other than infravision. Also you've got to note that there are next to no tanks populating Evermeet (other than the odd ranger or two...warriors? haha right!) so that makes it even harder on fledgeling casters. . .and there is _no_ hope of running to BG (or any other city) to find a group or other races/classes to level easily before 20th. So next time you're thinking how 'easy' good races have it, try playing an elf right after a wipe. =) Enjoy.

Waelos
Brugg
Sojourner
Posts: 189
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Anniston, Alabama, USA
Contact:

Postby Brugg » Fri Feb 09, 2001 11:25 pm

Well Elves are a goodie exception waelost
Blung
Sojourner
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 6:01 am
Location: San Diego, CA,

Postby Blung » Fri Feb 09, 2001 11:33 pm

If u think goodie elf is tough, try playing a yuan-ti on Hyssk. Enough said. Don't pick a specify goodie race and then compare those to a troll or ogre. And one more thing, between 55 to 75% of the evil group are either troll or ogre. 80% Of those troll/ogre are warrior. Evils use warriors to rotate tank duty as opposite to a balance goodie group.
Lyt
Sojourner
Posts: 360
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Lyt » Sat Feb 10, 2001 12:16 am

Well Blung,

As someone who didn't switch between goodie to an evil, and someone who didn't jump on the Drow bandwagon, I have some problems with things that have been said. Most of what I have been reading on here is how tough it is for newbie evils to get out of their hometowns. Its tough for newbies everywhere because they SUCK! No eq, no hp, etc.

But I don't hear any of the evils really complaining about getting out of their hometowns once they reach the teens. Why should it ever be easy to play an evil? There is a reason in FR that the evils don't rule the world. THEY DON'T GET ALONG!

Drow hate the squids, duergar, and just about everything else. The squids think they can rule all of the other races, and use trolls and ogres as slaves. The orcs (not a playable race atm) are despised by just about everyone as annoying vermin. Life would really suck for you if these kind of things were implemented. Squids would only be able to group with each other (unless they dominated you), Drow would fight just about everyone else they meet at first sight...I think you catch my drift.

Just be glad that the immorts let all the evils group together. In actuality, I still think that evils have it way too easy compared to what the character generation disclaimer says, and as long as you get all the innates (yes I know its currently another thread, but the only innates ANY of the goodie races get is infra....whoopie) it more than makes up for any "difficulties" you perceive.

So the next time one of you trolls regens back from -10 to full health without dying, just remember how rough playing an evils is. And the next time a Drow with only 20 hp left shrugs a cloud and lives through the end of the battle, remind yourself that life as an evils is too rough.

Lyt -Disgruntled Goodie-
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Postby Sarvis » Sat Feb 10, 2001 12:17 am

Let's see... human necroes, bloodstone. The place is a bitch! But they can still get out (prolly with help) and go to the same nice easy newbie zones as other goodie humans.

Hyssk... kind of a bitch, though I died less there than in bloodstone. They get nice innates like scaleskin that increase their defences so that even newbie casters can kill newbie mobs. Plus they can leave the island and go to BG.

Drow, never even have to leave their home forest to get to level 20, but can easily run to BG. There are as many aggros in DK as there are in WD.

Trolls, Ogres... dunno... never played one... heh.

---

Elves, no tanks, no scaleskin, no lev, no ff, can't leave island AT ALL until level 20. More wandering aggros than the Drow have to face. Their reward for this? infravision.

Barbies, get a nice hometown to start in. But they are dumb as posts. :grin Vigis: On the way to WD however there is A) a very long walk, and B) the possibility of making a wrong turn and getting mulched by aggros. (Ice bear for one... something else in those mountains, wrong turn into trolls if you try the other path. Giant spiders and Griffons just outside the hometown...

Halflings. Have to run through the fields of the dead don't they? Hate that place... never played a halfling though...

So humans and dwarves basically have it easy, but the other goodie races don't. Maybe not as hard as trolls/ogres... but it's not completely without challenge.

I think elf types have a right to complain. Their hometown is harder than a couple of the so called "hard" evil hometowns, and there's no tanks or rewards for the effort really. I got my snake, my necro AND my drow a LOT further than I ever got my elf... and I put a lot less time into any of the evils I played.

But I don't think that's really the point anyway. It will be somewhat hard for everyone to start from a wipe... maybe a little harder for _some_ of the evils. I think most of the complaints come from high levels though. I mean let's face it, a level 50 barbie has nothing he can say to a level 50 troll. The troll just has the advantage, period. Groupwise the only thing evils can currently claim they don't have is bards, but not many people play bards anyway so that's not that big of a factor really. But for all the strength and regeneration of a troll, or strength of an ogre all you had to do was die a couple times trying to leave your hometown. *holds his hand up and rubs his thumb and middle finger together*
Hear that? That's the world's smallest violin, playing the world's saddest tune, just for you. Image

Sarvis

PS. Just as a note, I don't really care that much. I'd worry about it far more if it were a full pk mud or something like that. But I just wanna play and have fun, and I'm always a ranger anyway. But I think you are looking at this in the wrong way, and I felt like a good argume... err... discussion so I posted the way I look at it. Have fun peeps! Image

[This message has been edited by Sarvis (edited 02-09-2001).]
Jegzed
Sojourner
Posts: 1240
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Jegzed » Sat Feb 10, 2001 12:43 am

Drow shrug? Which mud is that on? I never shrugged a spell ever on sojourn.

/Jegzed
Tilandal
Sojourner
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Tilandal » Sat Feb 10, 2001 9:54 am

Ill agree with you that elves have it tough but other than that all the evils have worse ht's then the goodies. Sure barbs have a long walk but once you learn the path there isnt much to it.

As a level 20 troll I still had problem going in and out of ghore on occation. Those lizard men are just not nice. Now besides lizard men you need a raft to get out of ghore too. Raising the money for a raft when you are just starting is very hard. The guards catch u fighting and your just dead none of that stun you stuff like in WD. Even when u get passed the lizzes and over the rive you still have the fields which you come out right in the midle of. Not to mention there are wraiths in the swamp so if you flee in the wrong direction your liable to get cycloned to death or worse. Now if your gona say barbs are dumb they look like einstine compared to a troll or ogre.

For drow you have the cleric and the pallie to wory about although the drow ht is easy compared to some of the other ht's. If your playing an UD race forget it is just not nice to cr. Paying a squid is just down right hard. There was a reason high level squids were about as rare as liches. What there were maybe 4 or 5 big squids? So what mighty inates do squids get? oh yeah levitate, doesnt realy make up for day blindness does it? Drow get darkness and ff but darkness never worked right since ultra vis didnt work in a darkened room for some reason and ff isn't all that great of a spell. I mean elven mages can get it second circle so its not as if they are being jipped. You also forgot that elves are not day blind and get innate outdoor sneak which is useful.

Duergar realy got the short end of the stick though. They cant even leave the UD without getting levitate. They get invis but at high levels everythign detects invis so its realy not much use. I never played a snake or a ogre so I wont comment on those but over all evils do have it tougher then goodies. They get innates but they all all utilitrian and hardly make up for the short comings. Finally all evil races face the difficulty of not beging able to go through waterdeep which is just a pain in the ass to go around. Sure you can just stay south of waterdeep until your level 40 but thats not too much fun is it?
Jegzed
Sojourner
Posts: 1240
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Jegzed » Sat Feb 10, 2001 10:37 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tilandal:
Drow get darkness and ff but darkness never worked right since ultra vis didnt work in a darkened room for some reason and ff isn't all that great of a spell. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually the darkness innate of drows was the single most powerful innate around. Anyone disregarding the powers of that innate simply never played much on sojourn.

/Jegzed
Mplor
Sojourner
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Phoenix

Postby Mplor » Sat Feb 10, 2001 8:30 pm

Shrug, the disclaimer says that evil races are designed for expert mudders, and not recommended for brand new players. It is strange to me that evil players who started as evils and had a hard time would be upset that others who followed the designed path and played goodie before evil had it easier than them. Evil races were built for goodies who wanted more of a challenge than being a goodie could provide.

I think it's a testament to this game's design that the hardest part about playing an evil is dealing with a larger percentage of arrogant aspirants who spend more time wishing they could do the stuff goodies do than actually giving themselves to fixing the screwball group dynamics evils have nearly always suffered from. I saw more behind-the-scenes grumbling about loot and general backbiting of your own groupmates among the evils of Toril than I ever saw among goodies. And of course, most evils are terrific people whom I loved playing with, and for the record, I admire Katheli for what he accomplished on Soj2.

I played an evil to lvl 48 on Toril. I thought playing a halfling thief was 2x harder.

Mplor

[This message has been edited by Mplor (edited 02-10-2001).]
Tilandal
Sojourner
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Tilandal » Sat Feb 10, 2001 9:05 pm

Actually im Intrested in what you used darkness for? In a darkened room no one could see anything even ultravis races. So in darkness you coulddent do anything. No memeing, you couldent see your inventory or equpiment or I always thought darkness was there so drow could create 1 room where they werent blind in the day. Obviuosly this wasnt what it was used for.
Jegzed
Sojourner
Posts: 1240
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Jegzed » Sat Feb 10, 2001 9:59 pm

There is a very simple reason why darkness innate is powerful.

- Mob can't see in magic darkness.

With that knowledge you can easily deduce what you can use it for Image

/Jegzed
Treladian
Sojourner
Posts: 1163
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Treladian » Sun Feb 11, 2001 1:26 am

Tilandal, the darkness drow create is too dark for even them to see in. If you read D&D novels about drow, you can see that that's kinda the point, otherwise they wouldn't be able to use it against each other =P As long as you're prepared for it and know what's around you, you can easily use the darkness to your advantage.

Trel
Dizzin
Sojourner
Posts: 290
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Dizzin » Sun Feb 11, 2001 3:01 am

darnit Jegz.. you keep telling the world our secrets, and soon the whole place is going to come crashing down on us
I dont know about you, but innate darkness was completely useless.. *nudge*
remember? useless!
Bibbe
Sojourner
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Örebro
Contact:

Postby Bibbe » Sun Feb 11, 2001 8:29 pm

HEHe

well if you think raising money for a raft to get out of Ghore is Hard.
Don't play evil. That is my point. I want evil to be as hard as they are
said to be in the disclaimer. (as someone said well above)

About HTs..
They difficulty shouldn't be in just leaving the hometown. (halflings
is tougher to walk to waterdeep, than drows are to walk to bg. Based this
on the fact that BG is most of the time populated by evils. For a halfling
to meet his friends WD is the place most of the time. NO low lvl dwarf
walks to BG to exp with his halfling friend. A lot of trolls walk there to
exp with their drow friends. well enough.)

The difficulty shouldn be in everyday life. The paladin and he's groupies
was a kickass improvment. (note that i am saying this from my own experiences with them.
they gave me some hell now and then.)
But More is needed. Make more aggros etc. Perhaps create mobs that are aggro to
30+ or something. (that's wierd though) If you don't want them to kill all the
lowbies all the time, make them give some hell to the 30+ expers. And smaller mobs
hack and slash the smaller players. (this sucks in RP though)


Someone mentioned the grouping ability of evils. Man it would be cool to seperate them
some. Every drow can't be a drizzt, daywalker helping yuantis and trolls.
I don't know how this would work though, but it sounds nice in some ways.

oh well ... this post was more or less just a repeat from the egroup earlier and some
posts above describes what i am thinking better than my own words.

(can someone please make me native english spearking swede)

hehe
- Bibbe
Bibbe
Sojourner
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Örebro
Contact:

Postby Bibbe » Sun Feb 11, 2001 8:36 pm

Oh and Brugg...
I've played evils like:
Sogg, Merrsharth, Madrazz, Xarxillion,
Grukk. eumm and some other.
Also i played Bibbe with evils when we had to use OC globers to do anything worth the
time. =)

I can't remember playing with you alot, all though i recon the name. Probably since i played mostly with my swedish buddies on our wicked playtimes. (Ulgh, songor, Garzagirar Astansus, and all back then) Anyways i've been on sojourn since the first start, and played both sides well enough.

Ulgh tosses you high in the air. Wheeeeeee, again!
mutter ulgh
Yasden
Sojourner
Posts: 1597
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Lake Stevens, WA, USA

Postby Yasden » Sun Feb 11, 2001 11:04 pm

When you compare playing evil to playing good, you're comparing apples and oranges. Sure, playing evil has its advantages, and its (sometimes severe) downfalls. But then again, so does playing good.

The *only* hard part about Ghore is getting out, and even that's not all that hard (recline, 2e, stand, run like hell on the river). All the aggros are either behind hidden doors, or way out in the swamps (Momma Gators). Other than that, you can level a troll to 50 in Ghore if you wanted to, quite easily.

WD is quite the same, for exp comparison. Otherwise yes, it's quite easy there. Griffon's Nest is a cakewalk after you've died a few times learning the path. Luiren is a major pain for short halfling legs. EM has to the the absolute worst of them all.

But then again, you have that cr walk from Gloomhaven to the surface....where's the levi?

Innates....sure, some goodies get infra. Barbs get bodyslam. Evils all have infra (except necros and antis). Ogres and Trolls have bodyslam too. Those innates are based upon the race, not something the gods thought of on the crapper and said "hey let's give evils all these badass innates". The innates come from sheer brute strength, height, and the mystical energy of the Underdark, and genetics. If goodies came from the UD then sure they might have kickass innates like squids duergars and drow. But they don't. But they can see in the light though, and the dark (with a light source of course :P).

It's all in the balance of the game, that's why it's all there. Although I personally think as well that playing an evil should be a little harder, especially some of the hometowns (Ghore and Faang need some serious revamps IMHO). Not so difficult people just give up and say to hell with it, just hard enough that it presents a constant challenge.

Just basing all of this from my experience as both an evil, then a goodie over a 4 year stretch.

Targsk/Yasden
Brugg
Sojourner
Posts: 189
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Anniston, Alabama, USA
Contact:

Postby Brugg » Mon Feb 12, 2001 4:27 pm

Nogs Bibbe i recognise Sogg, Sogg was cool troll! :-)
Bibbe
Sojourner
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Örebro
Contact:

Postby Bibbe » Wed Feb 14, 2001 10:22 pm

So basically..
we all agree that if the disclaimer is gonna say that playing evil races is a hard thing to do bla bla. As it was last wipe and the wipes before that, than life has to be more pain.

Other sollution is removing that disclaimer, and leave the evils as they are now. I think a lot of people will play evil though.
*shrugs*

Anyways, lets open NOW : )

Return to “S3 General Discussion Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests