Roleplaying a troll is the easiest!
Say "huh?" at whatever anyone says or does, emote a lot of snarls and growls and threaten to kill and eat everyone. Demonstrate on small mobs nearby for best effect. Use with caution. Do not exceed maximum dosage or operate machinery. May have side effects if used in conjunction with drow and yuan-ti, and especially elves.
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Artifacts of Power
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>It's really not hard to RP a reason for an evil to quest. Hell make up some BS story about how a Gnome tried to kill you in the woods yesterday and you want revenge or something. I don't blame the quest sphere for ignoring evils if your attitude is "payment up front."
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Getting tangible rewards (promised, and close to guaranteed before hand) is the only way any serious EVIL would ever help someone for.
I didn't mean that equipment, prestige or tokens needed to be handed out.
You can ALWAYS rp that you are given piles of gold/swords, but the point is that an evil character you need to do things for gain.
I personally don't care shit if my character gets anything from a quest or not. I just want the RP to FIT.
(Sahagugin emotes 'we will give you 2 sacks of gold for saving us.')
after quest done..
either do
(Sahaugin emotes Gives a huge pile of gold to XX)
OR
Sahaugin gives 100 gold to XX.
------------------
/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
<B>It's really not hard to RP a reason for an evil to quest. Hell make up some BS story about how a Gnome tried to kill you in the woods yesterday and you want revenge or something. I don't blame the quest sphere for ignoring evils if your attitude is "payment up front."
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Getting tangible rewards (promised, and close to guaranteed before hand) is the only way any serious EVIL would ever help someone for.
I didn't mean that equipment, prestige or tokens needed to be handed out.
You can ALWAYS rp that you are given piles of gold/swords, but the point is that an evil character you need to do things for gain.
I personally don't care shit if my character gets anything from a quest or not. I just want the RP to FIT.
(Sahagugin emotes 'we will give you 2 sacks of gold for saving us.')
after quest done..
either do
(Sahaugin emotes Gives a huge pile of gold to XX)
OR
Sahaugin gives 100 gold to XX.
------------------
/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
I think you're right, but you're overgeneralizing. Gain doesn't have to be monetary or equipment-based. Gain could be furthering that particular evil's goal of eradicating elves from the universe, or ensuring his own personal safety, or whatever. Gain could even come in the form of neat elf-head hackey sacks for Cherzra and Turxx to kick back and forth, and that might even be enough incentive for them to go.
If you want to get into it, Drow are lawful evil by nature. They may operate on a system of self-promotion, but I highly doubt they'd stand by while their age-old racial enemies attack and sack a nearby neutral city. If I were a Drow I might retaliate out of pure hatred, or fear that grey elves would gain a foothold close to my home town, or just out of spite to interfere with the plans of the greys. It doesn't HAVE to be about 100 gold coins every time, is all I'm saying
------------------
- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
If you want to get into it, Drow are lawful evil by nature. They may operate on a system of self-promotion, but I highly doubt they'd stand by while their age-old racial enemies attack and sack a nearby neutral city. If I were a Drow I might retaliate out of pure hatred, or fear that grey elves would gain a foothold close to my home town, or just out of spite to interfere with the plans of the greys. It doesn't HAVE to be about 100 gold coins every time, is all I'm saying
------------------
- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
I remember that SG night. Ellana was still a baby cleric and didn't have ress yet so it was a no go for a while until a resser agreed to come.
But I had lots of fun that night with Nils *hugs Nils*. Nilan worked hard at trying to get a group together to do it and I had a blast playing with him (At one point, he thought we might have to enlist surface aid. The thought of those damn elves being so close to our beloved drow city was too hard to bear). I'm not very big on roleplaying but I try whenever the situation arises and roleplaying with Nils is lots of fun. SG is one of my favourite zones and I like swimming too *grin*.
Gods are doing great in planning quests and maintaining the patience with us nitpicky questees. Thanks
Ellana - Floundering Drowfish - Orbdrin D'oloth
But I had lots of fun that night with Nils *hugs Nils*. Nilan worked hard at trying to get a group together to do it and I had a blast playing with him (At one point, he thought we might have to enlist surface aid. The thought of those damn elves being so close to our beloved drow city was too hard to bear). I'm not very big on roleplaying but I try whenever the situation arises and roleplaying with Nils is lots of fun. SG is one of my favourite zones and I like swimming too *grin*.
Gods are doing great in planning quests and maintaining the patience with us nitpicky questees. Thanks
Ellana - Floundering Drowfish - Orbdrin D'oloth
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gormal:
<B>yeah no evil would give in to a hunt just for blood...and im sure that no drow has any honor...even if geared to evil ways.... lets have nilan or someone post about RP rather then people who dont please.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Mind come with a constructive comment, than just some personal attacks.
I RP as much as anyone. However it is much easier to RP a drunken ale loving dorf (which I did when Kildran was a newbie who I sold dorfscales to
------------------
/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
<B>yeah no evil would give in to a hunt just for blood...and im sure that no drow has any honor...even if geared to evil ways.... lets have nilan or someone post about RP rather then people who dont please.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Mind come with a constructive comment, than just some personal attacks.
I RP as much as anyone. However it is much easier to RP a drunken ale loving dorf (which I did when Kildran was a newbie who I sold dorfscales to
------------------
/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
If you want to get into it, Drow are lawful evil by nature. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Chaotic Evil by nature, not Lawful. The elven race, including all it's subraces, leans toward the Charotic alitnments, with the degrees of good, evil, nuetrality, depending on the individual sub-race of elf.
If anyone needs clarification on the difference between a Chaotic Evil being(s) and a Lawful Evil being(s), by all means ask. (Not saying you do Rags, just tossing that nugget out there if anyone doesn't.)
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
They may operate on a system of self-promotion, but I highly doubt they'd stand by while their age-old racial enemies attack and sack a nearby neutral city. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
[/B][/QUOTE]
Saughin are Lawful Evil creatures, not Nuetral. It is my firm understanding from the various literature that Drow veiw all surrounding cities, even those of other drow, as rivals. Yes, even those they have treaties with.
Now as for opinion on the quest matter in question. I feel Jegzed's view of Drow RP being limited to "whats in it for me right here right now?", is just as shortsighted as Sehanine's "Well you are drow. These are good elves. You hate them. You need to kill them." is.
I do feel the Sauhuagin, as a lawful evil society, could possibly offer an alliance with a nearby evilrace city. By their evil nature they would try to put as many of the other race in the front lines as possible before their own troops. Sahuagin have 'High' intelligence scores. They aren't morons.
Unfortunately I don't beleive for a second the drow were the right place to go about asking. Drow are notorious for waiting for one side of a conflict to win, so they can easily eradicate the winner and claim all the spoils.
As I said before, the Sahuagin aren't morons. I'm sure they have enough brain power to realize asking the DROW of all people for help, is like asking for someone to cut your ankles out from behind while you're fighting someone.
If I was a Sahuagin King, and my city was about to be attacked by sea elves, I'd look to who is a sea elf's racial enemy? If it's drow I'm a bearded gnome! Try looking in the water, they're called Ixitxachitl, and sharks. But if I didn't have that option, how would I convince the drow to come help? I'm Evil. Hrmm.. Trickery? Getting warm. Lies? Jackpot. Perhaps as the king, i'd send envoy to DK talking about how my scouts have discovered plans to lay siege to DK directly, and A) that the sea elf attack on SG is only an attempt to lay hold to a base for launching continual attacks against DK. (Now mind you, I wasn't there, so I don't know if this was used.) Self preservation and the defense of one's hometown, even to the drow, are things they do believe in, or B) that there is an army amassing to attack DK, and we would be delighted to offer our assistance in providing military support in a move against this invading army to help you mr. Drow.
On another point, if I am a King, and I'm kinda well off, why didn't I just HIGHER 'mercenary troops' from DK?
Telling them they can join in the spoils of looting the invading army, is like asking two hungry dogs to share a bone.
-Caedym Shadowhock
------------------
If you want to get into it, Drow are lawful evil by nature. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Chaotic Evil by nature, not Lawful. The elven race, including all it's subraces, leans toward the Charotic alitnments, with the degrees of good, evil, nuetrality, depending on the individual sub-race of elf.
If anyone needs clarification on the difference between a Chaotic Evil being(s) and a Lawful Evil being(s), by all means ask. (Not saying you do Rags, just tossing that nugget out there if anyone doesn't.)
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
They may operate on a system of self-promotion, but I highly doubt they'd stand by while their age-old racial enemies attack and sack a nearby neutral city. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
[/B][/QUOTE]
Saughin are Lawful Evil creatures, not Nuetral. It is my firm understanding from the various literature that Drow veiw all surrounding cities, even those of other drow, as rivals. Yes, even those they have treaties with.
Now as for opinion on the quest matter in question. I feel Jegzed's view of Drow RP being limited to "whats in it for me right here right now?", is just as shortsighted as Sehanine's "Well you are drow. These are good elves. You hate them. You need to kill them." is.
I do feel the Sauhuagin, as a lawful evil society, could possibly offer an alliance with a nearby evilrace city. By their evil nature they would try to put as many of the other race in the front lines as possible before their own troops. Sahuagin have 'High' intelligence scores. They aren't morons.
Unfortunately I don't beleive for a second the drow were the right place to go about asking. Drow are notorious for waiting for one side of a conflict to win, so they can easily eradicate the winner and claim all the spoils.
As I said before, the Sahuagin aren't morons. I'm sure they have enough brain power to realize asking the DROW of all people for help, is like asking for someone to cut your ankles out from behind while you're fighting someone.
If I was a Sahuagin King, and my city was about to be attacked by sea elves, I'd look to who is a sea elf's racial enemy? If it's drow I'm a bearded gnome! Try looking in the water, they're called Ixitxachitl, and sharks. But if I didn't have that option, how would I convince the drow to come help? I'm Evil. Hrmm.. Trickery? Getting warm. Lies? Jackpot. Perhaps as the king, i'd send envoy to DK talking about how my scouts have discovered plans to lay siege to DK directly, and A) that the sea elf attack on SG is only an attempt to lay hold to a base for launching continual attacks against DK. (Now mind you, I wasn't there, so I don't know if this was used.) Self preservation and the defense of one's hometown, even to the drow, are things they do believe in, or B) that there is an army amassing to attack DK, and we would be delighted to offer our assistance in providing military support in a move against this invading army to help you mr. Drow.
On another point, if I am a King, and I'm kinda well off, why didn't I just HIGHER 'mercenary troops' from DK?
Telling them they can join in the spoils of looting the invading army, is like asking two hungry dogs to share a bone.
-Caedym Shadowhock
------------------
I wanted you to know that I have given up trying to make any points in this thread. Everything relevant has probably been stated, or will be. Much as I dislike coming here to read how so many people view the gods' efforts with disdain, I come back to see the latest. Not all of it is tripe, some is of use, and I will remember it.
Of those who I see quested, perhaps one out of 40 will petition a comment. Usually it's a positive comment. Most of those who say something negative have similar comments about other aspects of the mud, so I take those with a grain of salt. Those rare thanks are what keeps me going, what keeps me trying to come up with something that will, at worst, occupy a bit of time.
Thank you to everyone who offers another perspective we can use. Thank you to everyone who actually acknowledges some entertainment value to the quests.
Good luck with your hunting.
Of those who I see quested, perhaps one out of 40 will petition a comment. Usually it's a positive comment. Most of those who say something negative have similar comments about other aspects of the mud, so I take those with a grain of salt. Those rare thanks are what keeps me going, what keeps me trying to come up with something that will, at worst, occupy a bit of time.
Thank you to everyone who offers another perspective we can use. Thank you to everyone who actually acknowledges some entertainment value to the quests.
Good luck with your hunting.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Caedym:
Saughin are Lawful Evil creatures, not Nuetral. It is my firm understanding from the various literature that Drow veiw all surrounding cities, even those of other drow, as rivals. Yes, even those they have treaties with.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
They are neutral in the drow-grey war. I wasn't implying alignment.
In 3e, drow elves are "usually neutral evil." In the past and in literature they are portrayed as lawful evil... drow have a well-ordered society of matriarchy divided into houses. Chaotic evil implies less organization, where society is based more around the individual than structure and hierarchy. The example: the well-ordered, almost military-like ranks of the Devils are lawful evil, while the uncontrollable hoards of backstabbing and infighting Demons are chaotic evil. Drow lean much closer to Devils than Demons, and I typically classify them as lawful evil or at the very least, neutral evil.
All of that being kind of moot since this isn't actually D&D, my point remains that there are still a zillion ways other than "here's 100 gold" to get a drow to fight for you. And besides, RP on the evil side is fux0red from the start simply because duergar, drow, and illithids are all working together in the first place.
So just make something up and go with it
------------------
- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
Saughin are Lawful Evil creatures, not Nuetral. It is my firm understanding from the various literature that Drow veiw all surrounding cities, even those of other drow, as rivals. Yes, even those they have treaties with.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
They are neutral in the drow-grey war. I wasn't implying alignment.
In 3e, drow elves are "usually neutral evil." In the past and in literature they are portrayed as lawful evil... drow have a well-ordered society of matriarchy divided into houses. Chaotic evil implies less organization, where society is based more around the individual than structure and hierarchy. The example: the well-ordered, almost military-like ranks of the Devils are lawful evil, while the uncontrollable hoards of backstabbing and infighting Demons are chaotic evil. Drow lean much closer to Devils than Demons, and I typically classify them as lawful evil or at the very least, neutral evil.
All of that being kind of moot since this isn't actually D&D, my point remains that there are still a zillion ways other than "here's 100 gold" to get a drow to fight for you. And besides, RP on the evil side is fux0red from the start simply because duergar, drow, and illithids are all working together in the first place.
So just make something up and go with it
------------------
- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sargax:
<B>I remember that SG night. Ellana was still a baby cleric and didn't have ress yet so it was a no go for a while until a resser agreed to come.
But I had lots of fun that night with Nils *hugs Nils*. Nilan worked hard at trying to get a group together to do it and I had a blast playing with him (At one point, he thought we might have to enlist surface aid. The thought of those damn elves being so close to our beloved drow city was too hard to bear). I'm not very big on roleplaying but I try whenever the situation arises and roleplaying with Nils is lots of fun. SG is one of my favourite zones and I like swimming too *grin*.
Gods are doing great in planning quests and maintaining the patience with us nitpicky questees. Thanks
Ellana - Floundering Drowfish - Orbdrin D'oloth</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Heheh, that resser was me. I think what happened that night was that the group i was in was preparing to go zoning and then out of no where pops in this sahuagin telling us of an invasion. The thing with evils is that there are not enough of us. So when there is enough of us, we would like to go zoning. If the quest was announced to us when there's no zone groups then it would've been received more favorably. Goodie are more receptive to quests because there are more of them which means more of them are sitting there bored out of their mind. I'm sure if you ask the evils when we are bored then we would also be receptive.
Yssilk
<B>I remember that SG night. Ellana was still a baby cleric and didn't have ress yet so it was a no go for a while until a resser agreed to come.
But I had lots of fun that night with Nils *hugs Nils*. Nilan worked hard at trying to get a group together to do it and I had a blast playing with him (At one point, he thought we might have to enlist surface aid. The thought of those damn elves being so close to our beloved drow city was too hard to bear). I'm not very big on roleplaying but I try whenever the situation arises and roleplaying with Nils is lots of fun. SG is one of my favourite zones and I like swimming too *grin*.
Gods are doing great in planning quests and maintaining the patience with us nitpicky questees. Thanks
Ellana - Floundering Drowfish - Orbdrin D'oloth</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Heheh, that resser was me. I think what happened that night was that the group i was in was preparing to go zoning and then out of no where pops in this sahuagin telling us of an invasion. The thing with evils is that there are not enough of us. So when there is enough of us, we would like to go zoning. If the quest was announced to us when there's no zone groups then it would've been received more favorably. Goodie are more receptive to quests because there are more of them which means more of them are sitting there bored out of their mind. I'm sure if you ask the evils when we are bored then we would also be receptive.
Yssilk
Racial Profiling
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>
In 3e, drow elves are "usually neutral evil."
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your source of this quote would be? Can I get a page number? Or is this a quote from your dungeonmaster? Please clarify your source when using a quote. I like to follow up on such things.
Currently, I'm looking at the 3rd Edition Monster Manual Entry for Drow Elves, October 2000 (page 86), and I neglect to see any specific indication of alignment preference. I do find on arguable point though.
“The drow’s patron deity is the spider goddess Lolth. Female drow favor the cleric class rather than wizard and have access to two of the following domains: Chaos, Destruction, Evil, and Trickery.”
Note the absence of the domain of “law” which would indeed be appropriate if the race was indeed geared toward Lawful Evil disposition, one could easily argue.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>
In the past and in literature they are portrayed as lawful evil... drow have a well-ordered society of matriarchy divided into houses.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
A well-ordered society that would snap in a blink if not for the retribution that would come at the hand of Lolth. Remember in the Drizzt novel when the house with psionic drow waged person and house wars against 2 houses during the Time of Troubles when Lolth decreed that there were to be No skirmishes, and how she immediately gave Matron Baenre the means to unleash a hoard of Tanar’ri upon this house, obliterating it, shortly afterwards?
On a side note, when a race summons forth outer-planar entities, they almost always call upon the plane most similar to their alignment. I’ve yet to witness an occurrence where a drow summoned a Baatezu from the Nine Hells to serve for it for a time. It has always been a summoned Tanar’ri from the Abyss.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>
Chaotic evil implies less organization,
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Indeed it does, but not lack of organization. If it wasn’t for the harsh retribution of not following the law of the Spider Queen, the Drow would easily fall into a series of squabbling houses all warring against each other. Oh wait, they already do this. The only thing that stops them is because their Goddess has decreed how and when they are allowed. Now you could easily argue that this signifies the very essence of a lawful society, but then you have to look beyond the drow to creatures of pure Chaotic Evil and Lawful Evil dispositions. In the Abyss where the demons called Tanar’ri dwell. The drow are like the Tanar’ri far more then the Drow are like the devils of the Nine Hells, lawful evil Baatezu. For all 3 are involved in ongoing wars. The devils and demons fight each other continually in the Blood War, just as the drow wage war against their hated sub-race cousins. You wouldn’t see a Baatezu army turning on another Baatezu army after the conquest of a Tanar’ri legion, but you would see the Tanar’ri do this. The Tanar’ri have to torture and use the whip to control their rank and file minions to participate in the Blood War, where as the Baatezu understand that this war must be waged and their participation is as understood as the law of the land. For that is what it is. (That is not to say that there are not occurences where Baatezu would fight eachother, but it would almost always be a very small conflict on a personal level between a handful of creatures or less.) Follow the law of the land and your personal power will slowly grow.
The Tanar’ri use the whip. Fight for me or I’ll destroy you.
The Drow use the whip. Fight for me, or Lolth will destroy you.
The Baatezu use the law. Fight for us, and we will grow in strength.
Balors, like House Matrons, are always trying to snuff each others domains/realms out.
Not as much so amongst the Pit Fiends. It happens, but not nearly as much.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>
where society is based more around the individual than structure and hierarchy.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You’ve just caught the an essence of the drow. Self above all else.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>
The example: the well-ordered, almost military-like ranks of the Devils are lawful evil, while the uncontrollable hoards of back stabbing and infighting Demons are chaotic evil. Drow lean much closer to Devils than Demons, and I typically classify them as lawful evil or at the very least, neutral evil.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How many times in novels with drow have we witnessed drow back stabbing and fighting amongst themselves even during major military campaigns? Some drow even killed each other off for a chance to kill a prized target. Almost every race has a military, its how they keep that military in line, and the reasons they give the military for its creation that makes them different.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>
All of that being kind of moot since this isn't actually D&D,
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Correct, since Shevy has implied he does not use 3rd edition rules, but this has been most fun to debate these points with you Ragorn.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>
my point remains that there are still a zillion ways other than "here's 100 gold" to get a drow to fight for you. And besides, RP on the evil side is fux0red from the start simply because duergar, drow, and illithids are all working together in the first place.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I couldn’t agree with you more on the first point. As for the second, there are many evil Underdark cities where all the various dark races dwell together, and even sometimes working together for selfish reasons of personal advancement.
Now Ragorn, I’m not saying that every drow in the multiverse is Chaotic Evil. I’m simply stating that the majority of those dwelling in cities governed by the matriarchy of the priestesses of Lolth/Lloth are. I can concede that in such cities as Dobluth Kyor, where Vhaeraun holds dominion, it is conceivable that some drow there would indeed be Nuetral Evil in alignment, since Vhaeraun does accept both NE and CE worshippers. But, considering that Vhaeraun is Chaotic Evil in alignment himself, I find it unlikely that a city of his dominion would be nuetral evil dominated. Although it is possible. Also, I can speculate that there could, and possibly are, drow cities run by drow elves of lawful evil alignment, and rule in a lawful evil way. Unfortunately, these are small and far in between occurrences, and not the majority. So in using general terms, one would be safe to imply that as a race as a whole, the drow are indeed Chaotic Evil.
Oh, and no one is nuetral in the eyes of the drow. You’re either an enemy or future slave. But if you mean the citizens of SG being nuetral as in not caring which side wins, yeah I could agree with that.
-Caedym Shadowhock –Some Dude working for Oghma-
------------------
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>
In 3e, drow elves are "usually neutral evil."
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your source of this quote would be? Can I get a page number? Or is this a quote from your dungeonmaster? Please clarify your source when using a quote. I like to follow up on such things.
Currently, I'm looking at the 3rd Edition Monster Manual Entry for Drow Elves, October 2000 (page 86), and I neglect to see any specific indication of alignment preference. I do find on arguable point though.
“The drow’s patron deity is the spider goddess Lolth. Female drow favor the cleric class rather than wizard and have access to two of the following domains: Chaos, Destruction, Evil, and Trickery.”
Note the absence of the domain of “law” which would indeed be appropriate if the race was indeed geared toward Lawful Evil disposition, one could easily argue.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>
In the past and in literature they are portrayed as lawful evil... drow have a well-ordered society of matriarchy divided into houses.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
A well-ordered society that would snap in a blink if not for the retribution that would come at the hand of Lolth. Remember in the Drizzt novel when the house with psionic drow waged person and house wars against 2 houses during the Time of Troubles when Lolth decreed that there were to be No skirmishes, and how she immediately gave Matron Baenre the means to unleash a hoard of Tanar’ri upon this house, obliterating it, shortly afterwards?
On a side note, when a race summons forth outer-planar entities, they almost always call upon the plane most similar to their alignment. I’ve yet to witness an occurrence where a drow summoned a Baatezu from the Nine Hells to serve for it for a time. It has always been a summoned Tanar’ri from the Abyss.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>
Chaotic evil implies less organization,
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Indeed it does, but not lack of organization. If it wasn’t for the harsh retribution of not following the law of the Spider Queen, the Drow would easily fall into a series of squabbling houses all warring against each other. Oh wait, they already do this. The only thing that stops them is because their Goddess has decreed how and when they are allowed. Now you could easily argue that this signifies the very essence of a lawful society, but then you have to look beyond the drow to creatures of pure Chaotic Evil and Lawful Evil dispositions. In the Abyss where the demons called Tanar’ri dwell. The drow are like the Tanar’ri far more then the Drow are like the devils of the Nine Hells, lawful evil Baatezu. For all 3 are involved in ongoing wars. The devils and demons fight each other continually in the Blood War, just as the drow wage war against their hated sub-race cousins. You wouldn’t see a Baatezu army turning on another Baatezu army after the conquest of a Tanar’ri legion, but you would see the Tanar’ri do this. The Tanar’ri have to torture and use the whip to control their rank and file minions to participate in the Blood War, where as the Baatezu understand that this war must be waged and their participation is as understood as the law of the land. For that is what it is. (That is not to say that there are not occurences where Baatezu would fight eachother, but it would almost always be a very small conflict on a personal level between a handful of creatures or less.) Follow the law of the land and your personal power will slowly grow.
The Tanar’ri use the whip. Fight for me or I’ll destroy you.
The Drow use the whip. Fight for me, or Lolth will destroy you.
The Baatezu use the law. Fight for us, and we will grow in strength.
Balors, like House Matrons, are always trying to snuff each others domains/realms out.
Not as much so amongst the Pit Fiends. It happens, but not nearly as much.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>
where society is based more around the individual than structure and hierarchy.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You’ve just caught the an essence of the drow. Self above all else.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>
The example: the well-ordered, almost military-like ranks of the Devils are lawful evil, while the uncontrollable hoards of back stabbing and infighting Demons are chaotic evil. Drow lean much closer to Devils than Demons, and I typically classify them as lawful evil or at the very least, neutral evil.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How many times in novels with drow have we witnessed drow back stabbing and fighting amongst themselves even during major military campaigns? Some drow even killed each other off for a chance to kill a prized target. Almost every race has a military, its how they keep that military in line, and the reasons they give the military for its creation that makes them different.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>
All of that being kind of moot since this isn't actually D&D,
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Correct, since Shevy has implied he does not use 3rd edition rules, but this has been most fun to debate these points with you Ragorn.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>
my point remains that there are still a zillion ways other than "here's 100 gold" to get a drow to fight for you. And besides, RP on the evil side is fux0red from the start simply because duergar, drow, and illithids are all working together in the first place.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I couldn’t agree with you more on the first point. As for the second, there are many evil Underdark cities where all the various dark races dwell together, and even sometimes working together for selfish reasons of personal advancement.
Now Ragorn, I’m not saying that every drow in the multiverse is Chaotic Evil. I’m simply stating that the majority of those dwelling in cities governed by the matriarchy of the priestesses of Lolth/Lloth are. I can concede that in such cities as Dobluth Kyor, where Vhaeraun holds dominion, it is conceivable that some drow there would indeed be Nuetral Evil in alignment, since Vhaeraun does accept both NE and CE worshippers. But, considering that Vhaeraun is Chaotic Evil in alignment himself, I find it unlikely that a city of his dominion would be nuetral evil dominated. Although it is possible. Also, I can speculate that there could, and possibly are, drow cities run by drow elves of lawful evil alignment, and rule in a lawful evil way. Unfortunately, these are small and far in between occurrences, and not the majority. So in using general terms, one would be safe to imply that as a race as a whole, the drow are indeed Chaotic Evil.
Oh, and no one is nuetral in the eyes of the drow. You’re either an enemy or future slave. But if you mean the citizens of SG being nuetral as in not caring which side wins, yeah I could agree with that.
-Caedym Shadowhock –Some Dude working for Oghma-
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Caedym:
A well-ordered society that would snap in a blink if not for the retribution that would come at the hand of Lolth. Remember in the Drizzt novel when the house with psionic drow waged person and house wars against 2 houses during the Time of Troubles when Lolth decreed that there were to be No skirmishes, and how she immediately gave Matron Baenre the means to unleash a hoard of Tanar’ri upon this house, obliterating it, shortly afterwards?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually Caedym, Matron Baenre was given the means to unleash the horde AFTER the aggressive house screwed up. The Matron of that house put vengeance over ambition, and Lloth thought that was dumb. Her avatar told Matron Baenre as much: Because the Matron of the 3rd house didn't take out the 1st house right away, she was dumb and didn't deserve to be on top.
Just a little insert, carry on with your debate :P
Sylvos
A well-ordered society that would snap in a blink if not for the retribution that would come at the hand of Lolth. Remember in the Drizzt novel when the house with psionic drow waged person and house wars against 2 houses during the Time of Troubles when Lolth decreed that there were to be No skirmishes, and how she immediately gave Matron Baenre the means to unleash a hoard of Tanar’ri upon this house, obliterating it, shortly afterwards?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually Caedym, Matron Baenre was given the means to unleash the horde AFTER the aggressive house screwed up. The Matron of that house put vengeance over ambition, and Lloth thought that was dumb. Her avatar told Matron Baenre as much: Because the Matron of the 3rd house didn't take out the 1st house right away, she was dumb and didn't deserve to be on top.
Just a little insert, carry on with your debate :P
Sylvos
I remember the whole campaign/pre-campaign try out quest... I believe I was nudged by Auril or someone, then asked by Cerlayne if I'd be interested. I said "Hell Yes!".
I got to go on a somewhat abortive but immensely fun mini-try out quest. And while I didn't make the cut, I had a great time, and felt the quest gods did an amazing job. I may, or may not get to quest in the future, but either way, I had a blast.
As to "artifacts" I think what's in the game doesn't fit the old definition in full. That aside, if you play your character, and are less concerned about what so and so has or doesn't have, you may find yourself much happier.
Toplack * I may not know much, but I know how to group heal * Frostbear
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I got to go on a somewhat abortive but immensely fun mini-try out quest. And while I didn't make the cut, I had a great time, and felt the quest gods did an amazing job. I may, or may not get to quest in the future, but either way, I had a blast.
As to "artifacts" I think what's in the game doesn't fit the old definition in full. That aside, if you play your character, and are less concerned about what so and so has or doesn't have, you may find yourself much happier.
Toplack * I may not know much, but I know how to group heal * Frostbear
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Y'know what, I've never read an FR book. I don't know house names, I don't give two coppers for anything Drizzt said or did, and I don't particularly care to get into 10 page discussion about it. If some random FR author wrote about a drow character that landed into the CE catagory, more power to him. Yayaril hit the Monster Manual quote, here's another one for you. 3e PHB page 90, "Chaotic Evil":
"Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can only be made to work together by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him."
I certainly wouldn't lump drow into that catagory, and neither would the authors who penned the definition :P
Check the chart PHB p.88 and see what the first entry under "neutral evil" is
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- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
"Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can only be made to work together by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him."
I certainly wouldn't lump drow into that catagory, and neither would the authors who penned the definition :P
Check the chart PHB p.88 and see what the first entry under "neutral evil" is
------------------
- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yayaril:
<B>Page 85 in the third edition Monster Manual under the topic of 'Elf'. In the alignment section of the block of stat text, it lists drow as being 'Usually neutral evil'.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Fair enough. For 3rd edition rules I guess they want to say drow are Nuetral evil now. The point is still moot because Sheverash has admitted the mud is not based in the 3rd edition rules system.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sylvos:
<B> Actually Caedym, Matron Baenre was given the means to unleash the horde AFTER the aggressive house screwed up. The Matron of that house put vengeance over ambition, and Lloth thought that was dumb. Her avatar told Matron Baenre as much: Because the Matron of the 3rd house didn't take out the 1st house right away, she was dumb and didn't deserve to be on top.
Sylvos</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think you missed the point I was making by this example. Lloth/Lolth's preordained rules of conduct were not followed, and so by her hand the house was obliterated. You're not contradicting me here and I'm unsure what your point is making this statement.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>Y'know what, I've never read an FR book. I don't know house names, I don't give two coppers for anything Drizzt said or did, and I don't particularly care to get into 10 page discussion about it. If some random FR author wrote about a drow character that landed into the CE catagory, more power to him. Yayaril hit the Monster Manual quote, here's another one for you. 3e PHB page 90, "Chaotic Evil":
I certainly wouldn't lump drow into that catagory, and neither would the authors who penned the definition :P
Check the chart PHB p.88 and see what the first entry under "neutral evil" is
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well I sure would like to keep a running debate about it. It's a lot more refreshing then reading the various "I'm leaving now", "I don't play here but I post here", "I'm jealous of so and so cuz they got something I don't have waa", "How come noone ever remembers me during the split waaah" - threads.
Dearest Ragorn, surely you're not suggesting you'd prefer us all to post like Daz instead? -Gag-
"Typically, chaotic evil people can only be made to work together by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him."
You DO realize you just summed up the whole point I was making on exactly how Drow act that makes them Chaotic Evil, with this quote?
-Boggle-
I just said, drow only work together when forced, and the force was the will of Lloth. Are we not paying attention?
Furthermore. I'm not resourcing 3rd edition anymore, because it's all MOOT.
As for your point about only going by the game manuals on how the various game races are to be portrayed, you're missing a great deal here. And NO, R.A. Salvatore was NOT the only author to write about drow. So if you're hostile to character and the author, just fyi, there is other sources you could read about them in, that isn't strictly game books.
In addition, TSR has produced story book novels before they made rule books of specific campaign setttings. The Dragonlance Chronicles (For example) were written BEFORE the modules, and before any of the various game play books based on that campaign setting were. I'm not sure, but I'm pretty positive that the Ravenloft setting was done in this fashion as well.
To suggest that the various story book authors do not indeed help to shape and form the very worlds, and beings that inhabit those worlds, for game play is ludicrous.
As for now not wanting to get into a 10 page discussion about it, then why did you wish to get technical with someone else? I was hoping you wanted to honestly debate something with your initiation into technical details, and not merely a means to harp on someone you apparently didn’t agree with for a fleeting power trip?
Oh Ragorn, say it isn’t so!
-Caedym Shadowhock – Why does everyone want flames and whines instead of debates?
------------------
<B>Page 85 in the third edition Monster Manual under the topic of 'Elf'. In the alignment section of the block of stat text, it lists drow as being 'Usually neutral evil'.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Fair enough. For 3rd edition rules I guess they want to say drow are Nuetral evil now. The point is still moot because Sheverash has admitted the mud is not based in the 3rd edition rules system.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sylvos:
<B> Actually Caedym, Matron Baenre was given the means to unleash the horde AFTER the aggressive house screwed up. The Matron of that house put vengeance over ambition, and Lloth thought that was dumb. Her avatar told Matron Baenre as much: Because the Matron of the 3rd house didn't take out the 1st house right away, she was dumb and didn't deserve to be on top.
Sylvos</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think you missed the point I was making by this example. Lloth/Lolth's preordained rules of conduct were not followed, and so by her hand the house was obliterated. You're not contradicting me here and I'm unsure what your point is making this statement.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>Y'know what, I've never read an FR book. I don't know house names, I don't give two coppers for anything Drizzt said or did, and I don't particularly care to get into 10 page discussion about it. If some random FR author wrote about a drow character that landed into the CE catagory, more power to him. Yayaril hit the Monster Manual quote, here's another one for you. 3e PHB page 90, "Chaotic Evil":
I certainly wouldn't lump drow into that catagory, and neither would the authors who penned the definition :P
Check the chart PHB p.88 and see what the first entry under "neutral evil" is
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well I sure would like to keep a running debate about it. It's a lot more refreshing then reading the various "I'm leaving now", "I don't play here but I post here", "I'm jealous of so and so cuz they got something I don't have waa", "How come noone ever remembers me during the split waaah" - threads.
Dearest Ragorn, surely you're not suggesting you'd prefer us all to post like Daz instead? -Gag-
"Typically, chaotic evil people can only be made to work together by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him."
You DO realize you just summed up the whole point I was making on exactly how Drow act that makes them Chaotic Evil, with this quote?
-Boggle-
I just said, drow only work together when forced, and the force was the will of Lloth. Are we not paying attention?
Furthermore. I'm not resourcing 3rd edition anymore, because it's all MOOT.
As for your point about only going by the game manuals on how the various game races are to be portrayed, you're missing a great deal here. And NO, R.A. Salvatore was NOT the only author to write about drow. So if you're hostile to character and the author, just fyi, there is other sources you could read about them in, that isn't strictly game books.
In addition, TSR has produced story book novels before they made rule books of specific campaign setttings. The Dragonlance Chronicles (For example) were written BEFORE the modules, and before any of the various game play books based on that campaign setting were. I'm not sure, but I'm pretty positive that the Ravenloft setting was done in this fashion as well.
To suggest that the various story book authors do not indeed help to shape and form the very worlds, and beings that inhabit those worlds, for game play is ludicrous.
As for now not wanting to get into a 10 page discussion about it, then why did you wish to get technical with someone else? I was hoping you wanted to honestly debate something with your initiation into technical details, and not merely a means to harp on someone you apparently didn’t agree with for a fleeting power trip?
Oh Ragorn, say it isn’t so!
-Caedym Shadowhock – Why does everyone want flames and whines instead of debates?
------------------
Interesting all this alignment stuff. I never really gave it much thought when i rplay Nilan. Though I have been told that I play him like a lawful evil. Heh, I always wondered if I did or not? I just know i try to play him alil different from the standard assassin sterotypes.
As far as gods go, I'm pretty sure Nilan is not in lloth's favor , at least since the time of his wedding to Lady Elisten. Whether he has totally lost lloth's favor or she is merely amused by his err lack of devotion is another matter. One i'm sure I'll figure out one day *grin* Right now, nilan pretty much has no one god he is devoted too. Odd for a drow? Maybe? *shrug* He has many goals, which perhaps have earned the watchful eye of several drow deities. We shall see *wink*
Rplay here has been tons of fun. I like to include everyone. Evils, Goodies, even powerful drow wizard's like Jegzed, Master of Sorcere, who doesn't trust my motives and perhaps well he shouldn't *wink*.
Well, guys, I'll continue to try for watch this drow rplay debate. it's kinda interesting. Not too sure where, nilan fits in in all this, or even if he does according to FR standards, but he's got a fun character that i surely enjoying playing everytime i log on.
Nilan
ShadowStalker - Drow Assassin
Husband to Elisten, High Priestess of Evermeet
As far as gods go, I'm pretty sure Nilan is not in lloth's favor , at least since the time of his wedding to Lady Elisten. Whether he has totally lost lloth's favor or she is merely amused by his err lack of devotion is another matter. One i'm sure I'll figure out one day *grin* Right now, nilan pretty much has no one god he is devoted too. Odd for a drow? Maybe? *shrug* He has many goals, which perhaps have earned the watchful eye of several drow deities. We shall see *wink*
Rplay here has been tons of fun. I like to include everyone. Evils, Goodies, even powerful drow wizard's like Jegzed, Master of Sorcere, who doesn't trust my motives and perhaps well he shouldn't *wink*.
Well, guys, I'll continue to try for watch this drow rplay debate. it's kinda interesting.
Not too sure where, nilan fits in in all this, or even if he does according to FR standards, but he's got a fun character that i surely enjoying playing everytime i log on.Nilan
ShadowStalker - Drow Assassin
Husband to Elisten, High Priestess of Evermeet
-
Guest
If you want to play straightup lawful evil, play a duergar or anti-paladin. 
Drow generally are neutral evil, but lean towards chaotic (higher ranking priestesses of Lloth), or lawful (guards and other warrior-inclined types) in certain cases. From my experience with watching Nilan RP, he works on a very deep system of self-promotion, and he is more neutral evil than lawful, though he does have moments (getting the group together for SG).
Most elven races are neutral inclined, with the exception of Wild Elves and Moon Elves, maybe Gold Elves too. I may be wrong, if someone has a listing in the book of elves for alignments, feel free to post them.
Hope this sheds some light?
Malar - The only evil aligned ranger on the MUD. *wink*
Drow generally are neutral evil, but lean towards chaotic (higher ranking priestesses of Lloth), or lawful (guards and other warrior-inclined types) in certain cases. From my experience with watching Nilan RP, he works on a very deep system of self-promotion, and he is more neutral evil than lawful, though he does have moments (getting the group together for SG).
Most elven races are neutral inclined, with the exception of Wild Elves and Moon Elves, maybe Gold Elves too. I may be wrong, if someone has a listing in the book of elves for alignments, feel free to post them.
Hope this sheds some light?
Malar - The only evil aligned ranger on the MUD. *wink*
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