Song Power

Archive of the Sojourn3 Gameplay Discussion Forum.
Aldira
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Song Power

Postby Aldira » Tue Aug 27, 2002 9:42 pm

The changes to the bard class have now been in for 2 months, and we're still at the bottom of the list of people to bring to a zone. Almost every other class can contribute more. Some more tweaks would be very welcome.

First off, I'd like to see our songs have some more oomph to them. At level 46, with skills maxxed, things like song of protection give -2 to all saves and -15 AC. In the grand scheme of things, most people would consider that zero for what effect it has for the group. If it was -7 or -10 to all saves, however, that'd be great!

Song of healing is the only song that I would consider to be at a good effectiveness in it's current form, and then only for specific circumstances like lich fights and dragon fights. Maybe song of sorcery too. But everything else just doesn't seems to do anything in a zone. Oh, and song of travel rocks.

Harming, miscast magic, offensive disruption, defensive disruption (does this even do anything?), offensive harmony, defensive harmony, protection, renewal all need some changes to make them more powerful and effective for the niche they're trying to fill. I was saddened to find that renewal does virtually nothing to help a group mem faster Image

Another possibility would be to raise the skill caps on things like hide and sneak. I was overjoyed to learn we had them, but when I found out how high they could go, I realized that at that skill level, you're better off just spamming dirs than trying to sneak past any aggro.

What I really want is to be considered useful for the majority of zones. I try to put the best face on my contribution to any group, but I don't think many would say that we're very useful in our current form, and that warrants some more changes. Thanks for listening to me ramble.
Daz
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Postby Daz » Tue Aug 27, 2002 10:23 pm

Bards will always have a place . . . sometimes no pets are available to suicide into !light rooms.

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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
Tasan
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Postby Tasan » Fri Aug 30, 2002 5:38 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Aldira:
<B>...we're still at the bottom of the list of people to bring to a zone...

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uhhh, actually I wouldn't say that. Last on my list of people to bring to a zone are rangers/necromancers(lack of).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
What I really want is to be considered useful for the majority of zones.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Err can I say it?!

Play a core class if you want to be more effective for zoning. It's been said a million times before that utility classes are just that. Not that you might not have a point that changes are warranted. I'm just filling in for Kiryan.

Twinshadow

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Tanji group-says 'Twyl keeps thinkin he rolled a rogue'
Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Aug 30, 2002 8:10 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Aldira:
<B>The changes to the bard class have now been in for 2 months, and we're still at the bottom of the list of people to bring to a zone. Almost every other class can contribute more. Some more tweaks would be very welcome.

First off, I'd like to see our songs have some more oomph to them. At level 46, with skills maxxed, things like song of protection give -2 to all saves and -15 AC. In the grand scheme of things, most people would consider that zero for what effect it has for the group. If it was -7 or -10 to all saves, however, that'd be great!

Song of healing is the only song that I would consider to be at a good effectiveness in it's current form, and then only for specific circumstances like lich fights and dragon fights. Maybe song of sorcery too. But everything else just doesn't seems to do anything in a zone. Oh, and song of travel rocks.

Harming, miscast magic, offensive disruption, defensive disruption (does this even do anything?), offensive harmony, defensive harmony, protection, renewal all need some changes to make them more powerful and effective for the niche they're trying to fill. I was saddened to find that renewal does virtually nothing to help a group mem faster Image

Another possibility would be to raise the skill caps on things like hide and sneak. I was overjoyed to learn we had them, but when I found out how high they could go, I realized that at that skill level, you're better off just spamming dirs than trying to sneak past any aggro.

What I really want is to be considered useful for the majority of zones. I try to put the best face on my contribution to any group, but I don't think many would say that we're very useful in our current form, and that warrants some more changes. Thanks for listening to me ramble.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd like some more feedback from bards.

Incidentally, if it really is capping at -15 ac and -2 saves it's not working as intended.
Nassis
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Postby Nassis » Fri Aug 30, 2002 8:33 am

Max skilled 50 warriors tanking gatehouse-like fights with (defensive harmony?) the song that boosts defense skills, it makes a substantial difference.
Remember all tanking skills get boosted, dodge/parry/shieldblock quite a bit over 100 works...

Some songs might need tuning, tho, like the memming/psp song could have a pretty huge effect before it becomes too overpowered...
Trewe
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Postby Trewe » Fri Aug 30, 2002 9:38 am

the song of renewel should be looked at.. psp regeneration is way too slow with it which makes bards sorta useless in the larger zones because we'd spend half our time regening.. and I can't see too many zone groups sitting around and waiting for us to to that.

the other songs I really haven't had time to play with yet..only lvl37 atm.

Yahli

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-=CrocHunter=- Northern Star
Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Aug 30, 2002 9:42 am

I certainly couldn't have expected to get the balance on all (thirteen?) songs right from the initial settings.
thanuk
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Postby thanuk » Fri Aug 30, 2002 10:43 am

Bards rule!
Me and my bardie friend pleveled me up when i started here 2 months ago, and that was before he got tweaked. Now i force my leader to bring him whenever possible, because defensive song of harmony friggin rules man! I get like 120 parry/shieldblock and my cleric gets to go offensive spells. Maybe some other aspects need tweaking but id say your well on your way.
You must also consider the EXTREME bias everyone on this mud has towards bards, basically because they have been so bad for so long (Ask Nokie) When something sucks for 10 years then someone tells you its good all of a sudden, how likely are you to believe them. Prove ppl wrong and your zoning will increase dramatically. BTW bards rule in arena, so even if u got no zone groups at least u could go kill an invoker.

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Thanuk Pantherclaw
Zoldren
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Postby Zoldren » Fri Aug 30, 2002 4:40 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Iyachtu:
I certainly couldn't have expected to get the balance on all (thirteen?) songs right from the initial settings.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

slacker :P
Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Aug 30, 2002 6:17 pm

I tested out the song of protection. There is a cap, but it's much higher than -15 ac (the amount of the saves is related to this base number). I'll check out what you're getting sometime when we're both on.
Jorus
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Postby Jorus » Sat Aug 31, 2002 9:17 am

Having taken a bard to the occasional zone I can honestly say they do rock. I think bards need to start self-promoting a little bit more to get the word out more agressively. IMO, it's just a matter of what they can do being seen more in order for them to become desirable.

My experiences so far have been as follows:
Led Meilech with a slightly underpowered group including a bard. Romped the zone. Lich fight (a bit like gatehouse, 15 55ish warriors and a big old lich) was super easy because all the tanks could well, tank (defensive harmony)... The dragon fights went very smoothly also (song of sorcery and healing I believe).

I was also in a scorps trip where the king fight was done in a single run. I attribute this primarily to song of sorcery which allowed me to dragonscale the rampager so quickly (and with added spec points to boot!), and the invokers to nuke so fast and hard that the rampager was the last mob to die. Only one death, which was a high 30's, low 40's invoker.

My advice to relatively high-level bards? When you see someone in the room join a zone group, blast off a tell to whoever is leading and see if they need you. Once leaders get used to grouping bards we might trade a ranger or something in for one :P

Also, bards can contribute to making the "best" tank in the game. A warrior with: dragonscales, elemental ward, elemental form, displacement, and song of defensive harmony (targetted) would be a truly beautiful (and probably zone wrecking!) thing to behold. I can just picture one riposting everything to death with some proccer.

Regards,
Jorus
Snurgt
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Postby Snurgt » Sat Aug 31, 2002 2:15 pm

I think a big part of the problem is that, except for song of heal and maybe defensive harmony, the group cant really see the effects of the songs.

Like song of sorcery increases spell strength and duration but you cant *see* that.

It might help for people to see the effects of the songs better like for song of sorcery:

So-and-so casts forces missiles which thud into such-and-such.
So-and-so's spell power is increased with the power of song!

Arishae casts dragonscales on so-and-so.
Arishaes spell is made stronger with the power of song!

With song of renewal.
Your memorization speeds up with the help of so-and-so's song!

Something like that for each spell effect would go a long way I think.

Stuff like that, so people can actually *see* the evidence of the bards contribution.

Oh yeah that, and increased song effects Image



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Snurgt take no prisoner.
thanuk
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Postby thanuk » Mon Sep 02, 2002 11:18 am

Don't add messages that the song effected the caster's spell. We have enough spam Image

O'doyle Rules!

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Thanuk Pantherclaw
Snurgt
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Postby Snurgt » Mon Sep 02, 2002 12:11 pm

All you'd have to do is tack it on to the same line:

Snurgts force missiles slam into so-and-so (increased by song).

OR you could change the color of the spell message.

OR you could put little o/~ (or however you make those little music notes) around the spell message or something.

Or somethin like that. Not that the immorts even want to implement this suggestion, but c'mon man, be a little creative and use yer imagination Image


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Snurgt take no prisoner.

[This message has been edited by Snurgt (edited 09-02-2002).]
Jorus
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Postby Jorus » Tue Sep 03, 2002 9:21 pm

A caster who pays attention will see song of sorcery impacting their QC at the very least.

The spec boost is also noticable. Ask a cleric about the size of their vits under song of sorcery.

Regards,
Jorus

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