*Agree Malacar*
The ONLY thing (ONE) that gives a leader the right to be an asshole if he/she chooses: Your stupid ass following them again anyway.
(I think thats part of what Gordex was saying too)
If you don't like that leader (he/she was a bully?).. then find a new leader, or lead yourself. It's not hard to learn the zones.. keeping the group organized is difficult w/o being an ass, but others have managed.. give it a shot, maybe you'll be the next "great leader".
On the other hand, we all make mistakes when zoning. (Including everybody ranting in this thread) It's just when a person ALWAYS makes mistakes it gets to be a problem. (It's easy to say take them to smaller zones and let them learn there, but when you find out they are a problem while in the middile of a tough zone.. tensions flare.)
As somebody mentioned above I think - Leading was easier on Duris: if somebody messed up repeatedly, slay them and add their loot to the zone split, and move on. Here that can't be done, so instead the leaders get frustrated and bitch at the cause of the mistakes - or leave them behind.
Gordex has it right again. The best leaders are those who keep a tight leash on the people who aren't familiar with the zone (or zoning process!).. yet allow some of us free reign. Sometimes the follower knows the zone better than the leader (or at least specific parts/events). Of course, usually the leader is aware of this already, and ignores our little antics :P.
Wargar/Sarlend - got the desire but not the time =(.
grouping 101
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Hamibugan Sinweaver
- Sojourner
- Posts: 99
- Joined: Mon May 14, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Japan
I think I made it clear, that none of this was meant to flame anyone.
I am simply disagreeing with a few choice points in this and that attitude that because I know it I'm right and there's nothing you can say about it.
Cherzra is smart, very smart. He's taught me more than almost anyone. He is a very very good technical mudder, he has knowledge coming out his ears. But when he makes a post like this one I have to disagree. Mistakes DO happen, Lag DOES happen, People DO knock on my door, My phone DOES ring. If he has to reitterate (sp?) all the things he did in his post I have to ask why the hell is he repeatedly taking these people with him? I know how to do my job, Cherzra and stupidity taught me mostly how to.
Listen to the followers? Stupid to say? So when I'm out of heals from a hard room. I'll continue to drool and stand by idly while we all die in the next room, cause I don't want to spam, don't want to do anything I'm not told to and just "upset" the leader in any way.
The point is simply if you have people around you that can't do their job, why are they around you? If you're getting so repeatedly pissed off by leading, why are you leading?
Not everyone is going to play at the "level" you play, not everyone is going to practice incessantly, blablabla, and on and on.
You're the leader, you made the group, either look at yourself or deal with it tactfully.
Again, not a flame, not directed at Cherzra, just as his post is a generalization to followers, it's a generalization to leaders. I trust him implicently to lead, but if I come out of it with a headache I'm not going to go.
God this sounds like a ramble, I'm answering phones at e-mails at the same time, sorry.
------------------
That is all. Peace.
Hami
I am simply disagreeing with a few choice points in this and that attitude that because I know it I'm right and there's nothing you can say about it.
Cherzra is smart, very smart. He's taught me more than almost anyone. He is a very very good technical mudder, he has knowledge coming out his ears. But when he makes a post like this one I have to disagree. Mistakes DO happen, Lag DOES happen, People DO knock on my door, My phone DOES ring. If he has to reitterate (sp?) all the things he did in his post I have to ask why the hell is he repeatedly taking these people with him? I know how to do my job, Cherzra and stupidity taught me mostly how to.
Listen to the followers? Stupid to say? So when I'm out of heals from a hard room. I'll continue to drool and stand by idly while we all die in the next room, cause I don't want to spam, don't want to do anything I'm not told to and just "upset" the leader in any way.
The point is simply if you have people around you that can't do their job, why are they around you? If you're getting so repeatedly pissed off by leading, why are you leading?
Not everyone is going to play at the "level" you play, not everyone is going to practice incessantly, blablabla, and on and on.
You're the leader, you made the group, either look at yourself or deal with it tactfully.
Again, not a flame, not directed at Cherzra, just as his post is a generalization to followers, it's a generalization to leaders. I trust him implicently to lead, but if I come out of it with a headache I'm not going to go.
God this sounds like a ramble, I'm answering phones at e-mails at the same time, sorry.
------------------
That is all. Peace.
Hami
"Listen to the followers? Stupid to say? So when I'm out of heals from a hard room. I'll continue to drool and stand by idly while we all die in the next room, cause I don't want to spam, don't want to do anything I'm not told to and just "upset" the leader in any way."
ummm, if you *DON'T* tell me you are out of heals, you are not doing your job. I would hope that you Ham, would know that. If not, re-read the beginning of this thread and get some exp.
You know the context I'm speaking of in my statement, your just being silly.
Gordex - Gordex Travel Agency
My 2 Cents
[This message has been edited by Gordex (edited 07-19-2001).]
ummm, if you *DON'T* tell me you are out of heals, you are not doing your job. I would hope that you Ham, would know that. If not, re-read the beginning of this thread and get some exp.
You know the context I'm speaking of in my statement, your just being silly.
Gordex - Gordex Travel Agency
My 2 Cents
[This message has been edited by Gordex (edited 07-19-2001).]
Just a bit of practicaly things from RL. I think that will get my statement how I think about it here.
On a big military excercise in Germany the US would play the russions to attack the Europeans in a simulation battle. The US had 3 tank divisions with full support and 2 batalions of soldiers. They needed to overrun the dutch who had 1 batalion of soldiers. It was astimated they could delay the US for 12 to 24 hours before the US would break the lines.
The downside for the US troops was they only my follow orders. So only move to points, fight troops, etc if orderd to from an officer. The Dutch had no restrictions.
The dutch told every soldier they had the plan and let them act on themselves. They did know what would happen. After 72 hours the US was loosing ground (fast) and the training was canceld becouse all other points (the dutch should have lost so the Frensh, English, etc could join in on the 2e defense) The Dutch send out commandos and destroyed comunication centres, officers etc. The soldiers made they'r own plans when needed and the situation called for. What the US troops could not do, so they could not react fast enough.....
When I lead people should think for themselves but repeatly doing stuppid things is wrong. If somebody makes an mistake, it becomes a spank, fine it can happen, but to die becouse somebody is plain stuppid....
I hope this made a bit of sense.
On a big military excercise in Germany the US would play the russions to attack the Europeans in a simulation battle. The US had 3 tank divisions with full support and 2 batalions of soldiers. They needed to overrun the dutch who had 1 batalion of soldiers. It was astimated they could delay the US for 12 to 24 hours before the US would break the lines.
The downside for the US troops was they only my follow orders. So only move to points, fight troops, etc if orderd to from an officer. The Dutch had no restrictions.
The dutch told every soldier they had the plan and let them act on themselves. They did know what would happen. After 72 hours the US was loosing ground (fast) and the training was canceld becouse all other points (the dutch should have lost so the Frensh, English, etc could join in on the 2e defense) The Dutch send out commandos and destroyed comunication centres, officers etc. The soldiers made they'r own plans when needed and the situation called for. What the US troops could not do, so they could not react fast enough.....
When I lead people should think for themselves but repeatly doing stuppid things is wrong. If somebody makes an mistake, it becomes a spank, fine it can happen, but to die becouse somebody is plain stuppid....
I hope this made a bit of sense.
i just wanted to post to this topic. I DO agree with SOME of the aspects and opinions brought up here. HOWEVER, some folks forget that other folks DO NOT play this as a game, I myself just recently thought I lost ALL my gear, I personally wasn't pissed, however, I was upset by it, it's a game, wasn't looking forward to get'n some of it back, but, i'da had to do it if I wanted to keep playing the Shaman, luckily, someone looted me and I got it back. What my point is, you follow who you like and trust, I make jokes, ALOT of jokes about Corth, HOWEVER, I know that as many times as i've screwed up, with him leading, that he still trust me, and I still trust him, plus, we have a BLAST, I expect to die, when I'm with Corth (no offense boo 
) but as he knows, all he's gotta do is say Hey, wanna help? or I need help, and I'm there, Same as he'd do for me. I am a newbie, to a point, yes, I've been here since '95, and played a cleric, I am currently playing a class which I look to the "older" players of that class for advice, Maelgwyn, and a few others, I ask questions, they answer me if they can. The point that i'm making is the game itself, it's ALWAYS gonna be a game, take it serious if you like, but it's a fucking GAME!, it don't pay your rent, it don't feed your stomach, yes, I makes your emotions go UP and Down, your heart flitter flutter, your adrenaline RUSH, but it's a game.
You make your own desicions, if your a leader and asking someone you have doubts about, DON'T.
If your leading and don't like the way a person plays, Help them (NOT SAYING YOU HAVEN'T TRIED).
To relate that point, if you've TRIED to honestly help someone, and thier stupid|dumb|moronic|idiotic|plain fucking lazy, Then DON'T ask them to group, I'll take ONE good tank vs 3 crappy tanks who don't know wtf thier doing. I am NOT a leader, yes I have, we all have, but I HATE leading, I'm not a jerk and don't wanna have to be, so hence I don't lead, however, if I see a leader bitching about a certain person, and then continually grouping that person, it leads me to doubt that person, Nothing is worth personal integrety, nothing.
I like to play, I'll always play, for those of ya'll reading the post and bitching cause such and such said this and you don't like it, THINK how you would play, your not that person, you play differently, don't slam that person cause they are making THEIR point of view, look at their point first, THEN gripe.
I'm not bitching just to bitch, I do have a point, but damnit... i've forgotten it. sheesh..
Altan
Remember the GAME
) but as he knows, all he's gotta do is say Hey, wanna help? or I need help, and I'm there, Same as he'd do for me. I am a newbie, to a point, yes, I've been here since '95, and played a cleric, I am currently playing a class which I look to the "older" players of that class for advice, Maelgwyn, and a few others, I ask questions, they answer me if they can. The point that i'm making is the game itself, it's ALWAYS gonna be a game, take it serious if you like, but it's a fucking GAME!, it don't pay your rent, it don't feed your stomach, yes, I makes your emotions go UP and Down, your heart flitter flutter, your adrenaline RUSH, but it's a game. You make your own desicions, if your a leader and asking someone you have doubts about, DON'T.
If your leading and don't like the way a person plays, Help them (NOT SAYING YOU HAVEN'T TRIED).
To relate that point, if you've TRIED to honestly help someone, and thier stupid|dumb|moronic|idiotic|plain fucking lazy, Then DON'T ask them to group, I'll take ONE good tank vs 3 crappy tanks who don't know wtf thier doing. I am NOT a leader, yes I have, we all have, but I HATE leading, I'm not a jerk and don't wanna have to be, so hence I don't lead, however, if I see a leader bitching about a certain person, and then continually grouping that person, it leads me to doubt that person, Nothing is worth personal integrety, nothing.
I like to play, I'll always play, for those of ya'll reading the post and bitching cause such and such said this and you don't like it, THINK how you would play, your not that person, you play differently, don't slam that person cause they are making THEIR point of view, look at their point first, THEN gripe.
I'm not bitching just to bitch, I do have a point, but damnit... i've forgotten it. sheesh..
Altan
Remember the GAME
Being an ex-soldier and a newbie MUD'der myself, I'd have to say that Hamibugan Sinweaver seems to have the best grasp on the definition of good leadership.
A**hole leaders just set themselves up for being killed by followers who are tired of listening to their sh*t.
You really think it's an accident that you die over and over? More likely, your followers are playing 'dumb' and chuckling as your xp drops.
Be nice to the followers, they out number you.
A**hole leaders just set themselves up for being killed by followers who are tired of listening to their sh*t.
You really think it's an accident that you die over and over? More likely, your followers are playing 'dumb' and chuckling as your xp drops.
Be nice to the followers, they out number you.
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kiryan
- Sojourner
- Posts: 7275
- Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
- Contact:
I've seen groups saved by one person doing something unconventional, and Ive seen groups die from someone doing something wrong. Unexpected shit happens and the good leader is the one who knows what is going on and tries to correct the mistakes. A good leader doesnt do everything by himself, he is the one that allows those he leads to shine. A good leader makes good decisions not necessarily unilateral decisions.
I dont like asshole leaders, but they usually lead people who will do exactly what is said which will 90% of the time get the job done. IF your greedy or want eq really bad you got to make a choice. if you compromise your feelings dont sit around and bitch. remember no one begged you to go (at least most of the time they dont).
IF someone screws up a bunch, tell them what they are doign wrong. I really doubt they are trying to spank the group. They are probably trying to do the best job they can. Dont crush this kind of spirit or youll end up with a bunch of sheep who do nothing but whine at you to take them zoning for eq. FOCUS ON PEOPLE not the eq. Good people will make things more fun and more successful. THis used to be the best reason to play an evil instead of a goody (dont know if that still holds). IF someone keeps screwing up, tell them they are a liability and need to acquire better zoning skills. Then help them acquire the skills. Take them to small zones. Make them lead a small group, ect... Build the person
I dont like asshole leaders, but they usually lead people who will do exactly what is said which will 90% of the time get the job done. IF your greedy or want eq really bad you got to make a choice. if you compromise your feelings dont sit around and bitch. remember no one begged you to go (at least most of the time they dont).
IF someone screws up a bunch, tell them what they are doign wrong. I really doubt they are trying to spank the group. They are probably trying to do the best job they can. Dont crush this kind of spirit or youll end up with a bunch of sheep who do nothing but whine at you to take them zoning for eq. FOCUS ON PEOPLE not the eq. Good people will make things more fun and more successful. THis used to be the best reason to play an evil instead of a goody (dont know if that still holds). IF someone keeps screwing up, tell them they are a liability and need to acquire better zoning skills. Then help them acquire the skills. Take them to small zones. Make them lead a small group, ect... Build the person
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
IF someone screws up a bunch, tell them what they are doign wrong. I really doubt they are trying to spank the group. They are probably trying to do the best job they can. Dont crush this kind of spirit or youll end up with a bunch of sheep who do nothing but whine at you to take them zoning for eq. FOCUS ON PEOPLE not the eq. Good people will make things more fun and more successful. THis used to be the best reason to play an evil instead of a goody (dont know if that still holds). IF someone keeps screwing up, tell them they are a liability and need to acquire better zoning skills. Then help them acquire the skills. Take them to small zones. Make them lead a small group, ect... Build the person</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Unfortunately, this appears to no longer be the case. In every group I have been in in recent memory, we have had important people (trying to cr you, need stones, need heals, need you to enter a portal) go afk for 10 minutes at a time, such that over the 6 hour group period a total of over 2 hours was spent waiting for them. I've seen some of the stupidest deaths ever, recently, simply because people aren't paying attention and don't care.
I've had many evils say that they're 'bored to death', so it seems they decide to go afk, not pay attention, or not try. I'm wondering if I should stop playing Todrael, roll up a goodie alt, see if there are people there that play because the game is fun even when you've got 'everything you need'.
I guess I'll just start leaving groups that pull crap like this.
-Todrael
IF someone screws up a bunch, tell them what they are doign wrong. I really doubt they are trying to spank the group. They are probably trying to do the best job they can. Dont crush this kind of spirit or youll end up with a bunch of sheep who do nothing but whine at you to take them zoning for eq. FOCUS ON PEOPLE not the eq. Good people will make things more fun and more successful. THis used to be the best reason to play an evil instead of a goody (dont know if that still holds). IF someone keeps screwing up, tell them they are a liability and need to acquire better zoning skills. Then help them acquire the skills. Take them to small zones. Make them lead a small group, ect... Build the person</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Unfortunately, this appears to no longer be the case. In every group I have been in in recent memory, we have had important people (trying to cr you, need stones, need heals, need you to enter a portal) go afk for 10 minutes at a time, such that over the 6 hour group period a total of over 2 hours was spent waiting for them. I've seen some of the stupidest deaths ever, recently, simply because people aren't paying attention and don't care.
I've had many evils say that they're 'bored to death', so it seems they decide to go afk, not pay attention, or not try. I'm wondering if I should stop playing Todrael, roll up a goodie alt, see if there are people there that play because the game is fun even when you've got 'everything you need'.
I guess I'll just start leaving groups that pull crap like this.
-Todrael
Diac bitched and moaned at me when i grouped :P
Grouping is about knowing your role in the group and how to work with your group members. A good cleric works with the other clerics in the group, instead of 3-4 full heals going off on the main tank as soon as he hits few wounds. This goes the same for the other classes. Work together with people of your class or that have similar roles so that the group can get to the zone sooner and finish sooner.
Grouping is about knowing your role in the group and how to work with your group members. A good cleric works with the other clerics in the group, instead of 3-4 full heals going off on the main tank as soon as he hits few wounds. This goes the same for the other classes. Work together with people of your class or that have similar roles so that the group can get to the zone sooner and finish sooner.
The only advice I can add to this list being as I know very little is this: If you have better eq than something in a split, don't take it just because you don't have one, leave eq for people who need it... its really frustrating when someone has better eq than you and they get the item that you are trying for.
-Jethrus
-Jethrus
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
<B>
I've had many evils say that they're 'bored to death', so it seems they decide to go afk, not pay attention, or not try. I'm wondering if I should stop playing Todrael, roll up a goodie alt, see if there are people there that play because the game is fun even when you've got 'everything you need'.
-Todrael</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Admittedly this has been me often enough. I have never caused a group spank for that reason.. nor would never do that because I've done all the zones that any person will lead enough times to know when I can go afk without making any difference to the outcome of the fight. The main reason I'm bored of zoning in the first place. It's not because I have all the eq from thier.. it is because I have done it 100 times and am sick of it. I'm currently looking into zone creation to give something back and to help others from getting bored doing the same 10 zones all the time.
-Jaznolg
<B>
I've had many evils say that they're 'bored to death', so it seems they decide to go afk, not pay attention, or not try. I'm wondering if I should stop playing Todrael, roll up a goodie alt, see if there are people there that play because the game is fun even when you've got 'everything you need'.
-Todrael</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Admittedly this has been me often enough. I have never caused a group spank for that reason.. nor would never do that because I've done all the zones that any person will lead enough times to know when I can go afk without making any difference to the outcome of the fight. The main reason I'm bored of zoning in the first place. It's not because I have all the eq from thier.. it is because I have done it 100 times and am sick of it. I'm currently looking into zone creation to give something back and to help others from getting bored doing the same 10 zones all the time.
-Jaznolg
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